T420 Champions: India

[Ram]

Well, if you are actually working intently on improving the game of cricket, then my kudos to you. It would be even better if your posts were in a more postive light , rather than the usual scathing criticism of the team. If that be the case ,your posts will be appreciated by all and sundry.

[Guest HariSampath]

Well' date=' if you are actually working intently on improving the game of cricket, then my kudos to you. It would be even better if your posts were in a more postive light , rather than the usual scathing criticism of the team. If that be the case ,your posts will be appreciated by all and sundry.[/quote'] I have never ever done anything so far to earn anyone's appreciation or the vote of all and sundry. I just say what I feel honestly, and based upon due analysis. To point out obvious flaws and criticise where and when it is due , is the first step of positive contribution. If I have to write stuff that is "aimed" at popular sentiment or to appease any section of cricket followers, then its of little value to anyone. Yes of course I do praise good selection choices, good cricket by Indians etc. This is what I had done after the 4th ODI, I just pointed out that throughout the series, our top order has struggled bigtime against their fast bowlers and this was something mahi and the think tank seriously have to consider. When we got a 90 run start in the 4rth ODI and won, I just cautioned everyone about jumping to the conclusion that our top order has clicked or the problems were solved, because in a cricketing sense they were not solved. To support this I had pointed out that the 90-0 was just on the scoresheet and as sachin escaped 3 times, it well may have been 10-2 or smthing, and also pointed to the washed out ODI first one. Well we all saw what happened in the 5th ODI, our top order crashed out and we were humiliatingly beaten. Thats what I had said would happen, and it did Then when I pointed this out later in this thread and said but for great luck we will be 0-5 ( which is spot on right, all know this).... everyone started screaming foul, paki, get out of here, not appreciating win,self loather etc. I was just saying that as a cricketing nation we are not that smart followers and are a bit foolish to be taken in by one odd win . But again, I care two hoots about personal criticism, I always stick to cricketing points.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[The Outsider]

To point out obvious flaws and criticise where and when it is due , is the first step of positive contribution.

Like claiming Ponting was not out when the rule book, umpires, and commentators were saying something contrary?

This is what I had done after the 4th ODI, I just pointed out that throughout the series, our top order has struggled bigtime against their fast bowlers and this was something mahi and the think tank seriously have to consider.

We don't need you genius to see that two really good fast bowlers at the top of their game are troubling our either technically inept or waning oldhorse openers and I am sure neither does Dhoni or the Indian think tank.

Then when I pointed this out later in this thread and said but for great luck we will be 0-5 ( which is spot on right, all know this).... everyone started screaming foul, paki, get out of here, not appreciating win,self loather etc.

You are yet to answer Gambit's question - did we win the '03-'04 series in Australia 2-1?

[Guest HariSampath]

To elaborate a bit more, I really do not try to "please " anyone, either while posting or even face to face, when it comes to cricket. Whatever I feel personally myself is what I will say face to face and also publicly, they are all one and the same. For example I had known Krish Srkkanth very close even before he made his debut for India in 1981, and I do agree with him on many things. But if I disagree , I tell him on his face and even publicly if I write on internet blogs, websites/e-publications etc and I strongly criticise him, and he accepts it and doesn't take it personally..( for example on the graded layers/contracts issue, Srikkanth was actively supporting the senior players, and Iwas scathingly criticising it, I have even posted this somewhere) Likewise , I had known about the rise of Tendulkar even before he made his debut for Bombay. He had in fact come for some selection to Madras in a fast bowlers camp,as he wanted to bowl fast, but he was of short stature and he dropped the idea. While here in Chennai, he used to paractice in the MRF pace foundation, and as all the people running this pace foundation, the directors etc are personally well known to me, I learned about him then itself, that he would be a tremendous batsman for India, as he used to hit very established fast bowlers very well. After a couple of years, Sachin Tendulkar had made his debut for India, and he toured Pakistan for the first time as an International cricketer under Krish Srikkanth. We all know the rest of the story. I know more about this 18 year old story than many people can imagine, but still I criticise Tendulkar here for certain things, I had criticed him openly to Krish Srkkanth as well and I will say the same things to Sachin too, on his face. I am also a great fan of his, but that doesn't require me to say he is batting well when he is not or to cheer him if he plays lousily and the team loses. I had also flown in from whichever part of the world I was even to see him play first class games. But I also have booed him , and I will retain the right to do so. Is this clear ?

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Guest HariSampath]

But you fail to accept (I havent read every post but thats what I gather ... correct me if wrong) that for the same reasons we would have won the 2003/04 test series against australia in AUS 2-1 ... which is why you have got everyone screaming at you.

Scoreline victory is different from cricketing victory. Cricketing victory is something we need to analyse and take forward. To illustrate, lets assume for a moment that we play a test against Australia in 2 months time, and we lose the first test by 20 runs, a narrow loss in tests, and also we get 2 louse umpiring decisions in the 2nd inngs. Then if we have Australia down in the second test on the last day with 200 more to win with 3 wkts in hand, and rain washes out. Scoreline may mean down 0-1, but I will be saying that according to the cricket matchup, we are like 2-0 up. Thats what I would be saying when we go up to the third test. This is important in analysing our playing levels and to plan accordingly. It may not change the scoreline, but if we consider these 2 tests as "won on cricket", then we go in to the 3rd test with a winning frame and mentally our opponents know it. And then if we win the 3rd test, maybe scoreine may say series draw1-1, but I will say on cricket matchup, we have won 3-0. This logic may be applied equally to all series whether test or ODI and whether win or lose,and against any side in the world.

[Guest HariSampath]

No you dont ... heck you dont even have the right to boo Anil Kumble or even Munaf Patel when they are batting ..... the reasons have been made clear to you in excruciating detail by me and Shwetabh in past posts .... Your rights are restricted to stop watching them if u dont like what you see.

And that would be my right , ok ? just as you have the right to critise me. I would still boo anyone I want to if it is warranted.......and I care a squat what u think, and in any c ase who are to define my rights ? I had always believed that your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins... so there...

[The Outsider]

So on "cricketing victory" (whatever the hell that means), did we win, draw, or lose the series down under in '03-'04?

[Guest HariSampath]

swethab, if you are the captain of a side with technically inept batsmen who are ageing warehorses and your team is contunuously losing because of that, what would you do ??? Criticise those who tell you what you already know ? But as captain if you need your team to win, how will you eliminate this huge negative thing causing our big losses ?? straight answers please.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Guest HariSampath]

So on "cricketing victory" (whatever the hell that means)' date=' did we win, draw, or lose the series down under in '03-'04?[/quote'] Answered .apply the logic there. I dont remember all the scores and cricinfo may not give all the cricketing situations. Again, you may not agre with my appraisal of cricketing situation or I may not agree. But the logic is there and the framework of thinking is there.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[The Outsider]

swethab, if you are the captain of a side with technically inept batsmen who are ageing warehorses and your team is contunuously losing because of that, what would you do ??? Criticise those who tell you what you already know ? But as captain if you need your team to win, how will you eliminate this huge negative thing causing our big losses ?? straight answers please.

Well if technically inept ie. Gambhir, Uthappa or ageing warhorses ie. Ganguly and Tendulkar are all we've got then we have to do with them and take the results in the stride and at the same time prepare more competent players for the centerstage. What's the point of hurtling abuses at Gambhir, Uthappa, Ganguly, and Tendulkar when those are the best guys we have and are putting them up in an international contest?

[Guest HariSampath]

who bestowed you that right (to boo Cricketers ) .. how did u earn it ? Iam not criticizing you Iam just telling you how you are wrong.

Who bestowed ?? You crazy ? who needs to bestow me the right if I am in a stadium , I am a cricket fan, and some player plays for himself and not for the team. I HAVE the right. Period. And if you want to get judgmental about right and wrong, I don't object. If I am in a stadium and if Manoj prabhakar or Mongia or anyone play so obviously not to win, then I will boo, and if possible go to the change room after the game and let them have a piece of my mind. Also I will speak to whatever official, journalist, administrator, selector , former player etc , whom I know to see that the player is justly punished for it. And I think all fans have that right to boo...it comes with the territory, after all we cheer most of the time.

[Guest HariSampath]

Well if technically inept ie. Gambhir' date=' Uthappa or ageing warhorses ie. Ganguly and Tendulkar are all we've got then we have to do with them and take the results in the stride and at the same time prepare more competent players for the centerstage. What's the point of hurtling abuses at Gambhir, Uthappa, Ganguly, and Tendulkar when those are the best guys we have and are putting them up in an international contest?[/quote'] Obviously they are not the best, how do we know who else cannot do better. I would at least try brand new faces, and even if we lose, thats ok, why lose with old wearing heroes , at least try someone new... or something new. Maybe try something like opening with Uthappa instead of middleorder, and give gambhir more continous chances, ask the big three that only one of them has a place in ODIs and by rotation who wants to play, respect them, but tell them firmly. If all this is not possible how can we hope to win.... if a problem is tried to be solved by the same way and if it way is wrong, we wont get diff result.... same result only. Or maybe tell Sachin that he bats top of the order but doesn't open , goes in at number 3. In fact sachin at #3 is something I had been advocating for him since 1990. I had always felt and said he needs to be playing permanent # 3 , based on extensive cricketing points and history of former greats at # 3. But Sachin himself has never agreed to this.

[The Outsider]

Answered .apply the logic there. I dont remember all the scores and cricinfo may not give all the cricketing situations. Again' date=' you may not agre with my appraisal of cricketing situation or I may not agree. But the logic is there and the framework of thinking is there.[/quote'] Fine, so despite you being such an ardent cricket follower you are following this Mickey Mouse bilateral ODI series religiously but did not follow the clash of the titans in '03-'04. Ok, I'll accept that as well. One has got a life, job, family to feed. Now I apply your logic and I am being very fair here (you will find a lot of posters who have accused me of being anti-India), I would say we won the '03-'04 series down under 2-1 on "cricketing victories". Now show me one scorecard in the world where I can find that scoreline. It doesn't exist. Because, as someone who has followed the game for so many years, you have surprisingly not understood that cricket is such a wonderful game because "cricketing victories" don't translate into victories. You need to have that extra zing to win. We did not come back 1-1 on "cricketing victories" because of rain in London a few months back and neither did we come back 1-1 on "cricketing victories" from WI in '02. We won one series and lost the other. That is the bottom line and that is the beauty of a sport like cricket. Sure we can eliminate umpiring istakes by technology and weather by covered stadia, but there is always the draw factor in cricket which makes the whole concept so exciting. The concept that a team outplayed, bruised, and battered can still find an escape route and live to fight another day. If you don't like that concept follow another sport. As it stands we are 1-3 down in the series and that Hari is the bottom line.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Guest HariSampath]

I had also advocated for nearly 15 years that Sachin needs to bat with a shorter handle for his bat, and hold it right up, and he will get 50% more runs in front of the wicket and his dismissals caught on the 30 yards line will alm ost disappear... but then again these are my views and he too doesn't agree or try these experiments, and also he is a top international batsman, maybe he is right, maybe if he tries cetain things he would be convived. He has got lots brains you see. But all can tell what appears as useful based on analysis and backed by good intent

[Guest BossBhai]

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