T420 Champions: India

[The Outsider]

Obviously they are not the best, how do we know who else cannot do better. I would at least try brand new faces, and even if we lose, thats ok, why lose with old wearing heroes , at least try someone new... or something new.

Why curse and abuse the guys playing out there? They did not put a gun on the temples of the other talented players. BCCI and selectors did (if there are better players). Start your campaign against them. Why is Tendulkar, Gambhir, Ganguly, Uthappa's fault? They don't know there are better people waiting. It's not there job to know there are better people waiting.

In fact sachin at #3 is something I had been advocating for him since 1990. I had always felt and said he needs to be playing permanent # 3 , based on extensive cricketing points and history of former greats at # 3. But Sachin himself has never agreed to this.

Luckily, the world did not take you too seriously or else we might have lost the best opener/batsman that ODI cricket has seen.

[Guest HariSampath]

No you dont. Just as you cannot assume any right you want because you pay taxes to the govt. The Govt even doest not guarantee your safety end of story.

***yawn***

[Guest HariSampath]

Why curse and abuse the guys playing out there? They did not put a gun on the temples of the other talented players. BCCI and selectors did (if there are better players). Start your campaign against them. Why is Tendulkar, Gambhir, Ganguly, Uthappa's fault? They don't know there are better people waiting. It's not there job to know there are better people waiting.

I repeat I have the right to curse players sticking on to the team, for the wrong reasons. I would strongly suggest you read what I write closely.Regarding BCCI, selectors, they are getting arm twisted by certain forces who want to keep these same players in the side. With the exception of Sachin Tendulkar ( as long as he plays and performs for the right reasons) I have been strongly advocating for the dropping of Rahul Dravid and Ganguly. I had been speaking so several decision makers about this, all those things and specifics obviously I cannot tell everyone. In general, I would say Indian opening should be between Uthappa, Gambhir and another batsman, with Sachin at top of order.

Luckily, the world did not take you too seriously or else we might have lost the best opener/batsman that ODI cricket has seen]

Who cares if the world takes me sriously , sachin Tendulkar's opinions are what that matters, and although he has not adopted it, at least he knows why I said it and with what intention, and he also has cricketing reasons to stick to his grip which I am well aware of. btw, Sachin takes me a lot more seriously than you do...,:regular_smile: I am no nonsense chap and I never mince words , I am a fan a true fan, who will not give him bs like "wow u played gr8", when he sucked, it is that kind he is wary of

[The Outsider]

Can I get a reply to the following Hari because I've noticed a tendency in the short time you've been here to brush things which don't suit your agenda, under the carpet :

Fine, so despite you being such an ardent cricket follower you are following this Mickey Mouse bilateral ODI series religiously but did not follow the clash of the titans in '03-'04. Ok, I'll accept that as well. One has got a life, job, family to feed. Now I apply your logic and I am being very fair here (you will find a lot of posters who have accused me of being anti-India), I would say we won the '03-'04 series down under 2-1 on "cricketing victories". Now show me one scorecard in the world where I can find that scoreline. It doesn't exist. Because, as someone who has followed the game for so many years, you have surprisingly not understood that cricket is such a wonderful game because "cricketing victories" don't translate into victories. You need to have that extra zing to win. We did not come back 1-1 on "cricketing victories" because of rain in London a few months back and neither did we come back 1-1 on "cricketing victories" from WI in '02. We won one series and lost the other. That is the bottom line and that is the beauty of a sport like cricket. Sure we can eliminate umpiring istakes by technology and weather by covered stadia, but there is always the draw factor in cricket which makes the whole concept so exciting. The concept that a team outplayed, bruised, and battered can still find an escape route and live to fight another day. If you don't like that concept follow another sport. As it stands we are 1-3 down in the series and that Hari is the bottom line.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Guest HariSampath]

No you dont. The only people who select the team are the selectors and they are answerable to the Board not you not me not the Prime Minister. Your only right is you stop watching ... if u dont like what you see. And there is a very good reason why its that way ... which you will never understand.

If you want to understand anything about Rights, I suggest you read some stuff about Thomas Jefferson

[The Outsider]

If you want to understand anything about Rights' date=' I suggest you read some stuff about Thomas Jefferson[/quote'] Abhi to yeh serious territory mein baat kar raha hai!! Aaj Jefferson kal Einstein!! Not sure if I can stay abreast with that stuff.:wink_smile:

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[fineleg]

BossBhai, I dont support everything that Hari Sampath is saying, but at the same time I think you are flawed in what you state as well. When you keep talking about "rights", what the hell do "rights" mean? If what Hari Sampath is doing is legally wrong, the authorities will take action against him. Legally speaking, booing (by making booing sounds) is not wrong. Violent or certain other actions are wrong legally. Ethically? well, that differs from person to person ain't it? If so, why are you and him arguing about it. He feels he can boo. You feel you cannot. Differing point of view, why dont you end it there...rather than going on endlessly about whether person X has the right to do action A or not. I mean there are laws to say what actions we can do and what we cannot. Beyond that, each individual has the right to choose his/her actions (within legally allowed limits ofcourse). Adding to this: Ofcourse Bossbhai has the right to say that HariSampath does not have the right to boo, and Hari Sampath has the right to disagree. And I have the right to make this post. The beauty of rights :thumbs_up:

[Guest HariSampath]

Can I get a reply to the following Hari because I've noticed a tendency in the short time you've been here to brush things which don't suit your agenda, under the carpet : Quote Fine, so despite you being such an ardent cricket follower you are following this Mickey Mouse bilateral ODI series religiously but did not follow the clash of the titans in '03-'04. Ok, I'll accept that as well. One has got a life, job, family to feed. Now I apply your logic and I am being very fair here (you will find a lot of posters who have accused me of being anti-India), I would say we won the '03-'04 series down under 2-1 on "cricketing victories". Now show me one scorecard in the world where I can find that scoreline. It doesn't exist. Because, as someone who has followed the game for so many years, you have surprisingly not understood that cricket is such a wonderful game because "cricketing victories" don't translate into victories. You need to have that extra zing to win. We did not come back 1-1 on "cricketing victories" because of rain in London a few months back and neither did we come back 1-1 on "cricketing victories" from WI in '02. We won one series and lost the other. That is the bottom line and that is the beauty of a sport like cricket. Sure we can eliminate umpiring istakes by technology and weather by covered stadia, but there is always the draw factor in cricket which makes the whole concept so exciting. The concept that a team outplayed, bruised, and battered can still find an escape route and live to fight another day. If you don't like that concept follow another sport. As it stands we are 1-3 down in the series and that Hari is the bottom line. I have no agenda for myself, and by the way you don't have to be "anti India" to be considered fair, and I certainly don't brush anything under the carpet. One last time I say this. Cricketing situations are important in so far as it gives the team's true performance assessment for the purposes of planning, making informed choices , moving forward, confidence etc. Scoreline CANNOT be changed for matches that are over, Wisden wouldn't agree, and I hope you concede I am not that stupid not realising that. To illustrate with just one example, and I hope if I believe you to be genuinely asking you won't ask again. Just take the case of a ODI we play and are 230-4 in 40 overs but add only 40 runs in the last 10 ( an example), and of these 12 are by wides etc. and the opposition team starts off with 2 down for 10, climb to 180-5 and then say, need 55 off last 5 overs with 2 wkts in hand . If from that position, they get 53 off next 4 overs with authentic cricket and then due to 2 very bad obvious decisions like obvious caught behind, we win the game by 1 run, then what will I think or if I am lucky enough to get to have dinner with Mahi or Sachin what will I tell them ? Just to illustrate how I read the game. I will say " look, we may have won the game and are up 1-0 tonight, but see what happened. We let them climb from 10-2 to 180 and again from 55 needed off last 5 overs their 9 1nd 10 batsmen got 53, and we only won very narrowly tonight because of those 2 decisions, or the scoreline will be 0-1. For the next game we need to think about our death bowling which really sucked today and might have caused us the game decisively, Our death batting sucked we got only 40 off 10 overs and that too bcos they bowled too many wide boundaries. We shouldn't sit back and delude ourselves into thinking we have won the cricket battle, although the scoreline says so. We need to fix these areas quickly or tomorrow me may not be lucky enough to get those wides or umpiring decisions. for the moment treat it at 0-1 for planning a stragegy, no harm as scoreline doesn't change. Also take forward good things we did right like winning our new ball battles with them" Now is this too wrong? in fact mahi and the team think tank will be thinking exactly the same thing, as they are all seasoned cricketers. And suppose the think tank does nothing, and the next 2 games we play, both times we score very less at the death, and we allow too many at the death and they chase very succesfully, I will certainly call Mahi and say " look you scrwd up bigtime, and take this as a 03, and NOT 1-2 defeat . I am sure he will agree. Smart , pragmatic chap he is. Is this wrong ? That is what I am saying all along. No further questions please. This point is as clear as daylight.

[Guest HariSampath]

Abhi to yeh serious territory mein baat kar raha hai!! Aaj Jefferson kal Einstein!! Not sure if I can stay abreast with that stuff.:wink_smile:

"....... when in the course of human events....... we hold these truths to be self evident....." declaration of Indepedence.... beta and of course the Bill of Rights etc.... About Einsten.... we have our cricketing points here so detailed and complicated, he may have found it easier to work out E=mC2 and say all things are relative..... which is of course perfectly true for cricket as well :wink_smile:

[Guest HariSampath]

BossBhai, I dont support everything that Hari Sampath is saying, but at the same time I think you are flawed in what you state as well. When you keep talking about "rights", what the hell do "rights" mean? If what Hari Sampath is doing is legally wrong, the authorities will take action against him. Legally speaking, booing (by making booing sounds) is not wrong. Violent or certain other actions are wrong legally. Ethically? well, that differs from person to person ain't it? If so, why are you and him arguing about it. He feels he can boo. You feel you cannot. Differing point of view, why dont you end it there...rather than going on endlessly about whether person X has the right to do action A or not. I mean there are laws to say what actions we can do and what we cannot. Beyond that, each individual has the right to choose his/her actions (within legally allowed limits ofcourse). Adding to this: Ofcourse Bossbhai has the right to say that HariSampath does not have the right to boo, and Hari Sampath has the right to disagree. And I have the right to make this post. The beauty of rights :thumbs_up:

You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT :two_thumbs_up:And I said only BOO... and he said I have no right to boo, but I have a Right to Boo.... we have it in our constitution... check Part 3....( Right to practise of any religion) and also Right to Life and liberty because this cricket comes under religion and life in our country, Right??:two_thumbs_up::wink_smile: So it is LEGAL too :yay:

[Guest HariSampath]

By the way.... a small point fineleg.... Legally speaking, I do have the right to smash someone's nose ( like I said I will smash manoj prabhakar) and legally ( happily) pay the penalty too.... these are fineleg(AL) points :giggle:

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Guest HariSampath]

By the same token, I have argued succesfully with several attorneys in India and US.. that there exists no law in any part of the world where crime is illegal. Crime or violations of the law are merely stated along with what punishment is allotted for it. No constitution can ever say crime is illegal, because there will be several right acts done in a wriong manner which law may not permit, but the act itself may be right.

[The Outsider]

Is this wrong ? That is what I am saying all along.

The way you make value judgements on players, the game etc. makes me wonder have you ever played the game? It's a bl.oody sport at the end of the day and mistakes are bound to be made. I can say from experience of playing upto Dist. U-19 level and represneting one of the better Univs. in India that's how cricket is played. All you have offered so far is hindsight analysis of matches upto 13 years old and expect us to believe that all matches are fixed/rigged today? BTW, this answer was just a courtesy, you still hven't answered a lot of points I raised previously. Don't ask me to dig them for you in the thread, it takes 10 minutes to find them.

[Guest HariSampath]

Will you say the same thing if the boot were on the other side ? as in the case of 2003/04 series down under where Bucknor and Bowden screwed us left right and center ? Straight answer in the form of Yes or No.

See, I don't remember all the Bucknor and Bowden decisions now, and the impact on the game. I will take your word for it and assuming their decisions impacted decisively, I will say, YES, our victory may not reflect in Wisden, but as a match of cricket skills YES, I would agree, and I have mentioned I will apply this to any series... for ex when we go there this year, thatshould help us think " we actually won the skill contest here 4 years back"/ Answer YES

[The Outsider]

See' date=' I don't remember all the Bucknor and Bowden decisions now, and the impact on the game. I will take your word for it and assuming their decisions impacted decisively, I will say, YES, our victory may not reflect in Wisden, but as a match of cricket skills YES, I would agree, and I have mentioned I will apply this to any series... for ex when we go there this year, thatshould help us think " we actually won the skill contest here 4 years back"/ Answer YES[/quote'] Good job!! Now does that change the bottom line of any scorebook, ideally it should becasue we are talking about an encyclopedia on Indian cricket and someone who has arguably followed the game for longer than any of us on this forum. Does it change the bottom line?

[Guest HariSampath]

The way you make value judgements on players, the game etc. makes me wonder have you ever played the game? It's a bl.oody sport at the end of the day and mistakes are bound to be made. I can say from experience of playing upto Dist. U-19 level and represneting one of the better Univs. in India that's how cricket is played. All you have offered so far is hindsight analysis of matches upto 13 years old and expect us to believe that all matches are fixed/rigged today? BTW, this answer was just a courtesy, you still hven't answered a lot of points I raised previously. Don't ask me to dig them for you in the thread, it takes 10 minutes to find them.

I have played cricket from the age of 5 , played gully cricket, school cricket, U-15, club league, u-19, college, Rohinton Baria Inter University for 3 straight years, captained University..... even as an old man of 35, I have played in the California league as well.. I have seen many many match situations in cricket, I have played in fixed matches, where some teams had arranged to be played in order to avoid relegation or to win championships, I have taken blows on my face off the new ball, faced Ranji trophy bolwers clobbered them, had my face cut etc.... Ok ?

[Guest HariSampath]

Good job!! Now does that change the bottom line of any scorebook, ideally it should becasue we are talking about an encyclopedia on Indian cricket and someone who has arguably followed the game for longer than any of us on this forum. Does it change the bottom line?

It will NOT change Wisden... my God,, how many times I say this.... but it has to be "treated as won" for other reasons, we cannot change the stats=wisden=scoreline.... I am sayin this for the 5th time in last 20 posts.