yoda Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 When it happened in the 4th ODI i ignored the whole issue because i felt the people doing it might have just cross the line while having a good time but for it to happen in 3 consecutive matches is really disturbing and i hope it is stopped right here right now! If i am not mistaken this has happened in Mumbai before too so obviously there is a problem and it's better not to sweep it under the carpet. They have taken action. Some folks have been arrested. I hope they are just warned to clean up their act and let go instead of taking it to an extreme.
MundaPakistani Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 They have taken action. Some folks have been arrested. I hope they are just warned to clean up their act and let go instead of taking it to an extreme. That's good! I am glad this time around there is enough evidence(the pics taken by the aussie photographers) to punish these fools.
Lurker Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 They have taken action. Some folks have been arrested. I hope they are just warned to clean up their act and let go instead of taking it to an extreme. I personally fail to understand why would anyone take the pains to go watch a game and then abuse players? I meaning they have to get tickets first, which is always a hassle, then go to stadium much much before the gates open, travel in couped buses/trains whatever, stand in endless lines, then seat on a cr@ppy bench, with bad toilets and water facilities only to see their country getting clobbered. After all that pain you want to get evicted for saying ridiculous words?? Beats me. :confused_smile:
Chandan Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 when my cousins called sidney a monkey we were pretty much growing up in india and we went to the west only a decade or so later. They saw an african american look as "monkeyish" because of their immaturity as children that time. can the same excuse be made for 20+ yr olds today? it has everything to do with looking upon a human of negroid classification as a monkey. nothing to do with living in india or USA. Not really. I will say if you regard a fairer race as desirable and a darker race as less desirable in qualties, its racist. In some borderline cases, i will say people are shallow rather than racist because they are biased in favor of the fairer person because of physical attractiveness. Some people may have just joined in with the crowd or not aware of this soccer related problems. but i have no doubts whatsoever of the rest. See, my point is, are the Australians or for that matter other western country aware of our culture and religious values? If not, why do they expect that we would be aware of their culture of such other values? Or as Australian media is assuming, that since “monkey†is a pejorative in Europe and Australia, it must be in India too, why should we give any weight to their thought?
youngindia Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 See, my point is, are the Australians or for that matter other western country aware of our culture and religious values? If not, why do they expect that we would be aware of their culture of such other values? it does not go that way in this case. how is it excused if an indian see a african descendant as monkey? i don't see anything western or south asian about it. The only difference here is australia maybe with advanced awareness of the monkey chant problems in soccer and they immediately recognised it for what it is. indians are slow to recognise it for what it is since euro soccer took root only recently with advent of satellite ad cable . that is the difference in this incident. but this shud not be used to hide the fact some indians do think meanly of african looks as monkeys. it has latently existed before and i first heard of it 15+ years ago. The incidents is a trigger that shows explicitly and in public for the first time the same problem exists in india as well.
Zap_Brannigan Posted October 18, 2007 Posted October 18, 2007 Why i think it was deliberate racism? Its not the 1st time Indian crowds (or for that matter crowds anywhere) called the visiting team names. It happened a cpl of games back. A few ppl made monkey noises towards symmonds. I am willing to ignore on the reason for selecting monkey noises instead of profanities (like usual) and why they chose Symmonds. So i am willing to say that they were just idiots who didn't intend it to be racism. Then symmonds got offended and the media got hold of it. Making monkey noises is not prevalent in indian sports culture. So there is no way suddenly 3 diff cities decide, "hey we should make monkey noises" without reading in the media abt the monkey noises made in the 4th game and its racial connotations. If it had happened once, I would have agreed that it wasn't racism. But not only it happened 3 times, but it happened to the same player who happened to be the only black person in the opposing team. Can you explain to me how 3 diff cities did the same thing? or do you believe that it was the same 10~15 person (doesnt matter how many) to traveled to all these 3 cities to do this? Chandan, you are just trying to make an excuse to think that calling monkey names (there is diff. bet. using it endearingly like radhika does to her students) of a perfect stranger is akin to using hanumans name. I dont expect Indians to know everything abt aussie culture or its quirks et al. but something like this is "world culture". Somethings like beating a person in any part of the world is wrong. Killing is wrong. So is this. Ignorance is not an excuse. It sounds like one of those wife beaters who use "but i can do it back in my country" excuses.
Chandan Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 Zap and YI, I've not given any excuses for the hooliganism of the crowd. I condemn such behaviour. But I'd like to think that many didn't know the meaning of racism or its connection with monkey as I didn't know before this incident. Yet, I haven't found even one answer as to why being compared to monkey is hurting to some and why being compared to an elephant isn't? What is to be so ashamed about looking like a monkey and why isn't that shameful if you look like an elephant? And since I didn't know about it despite living in a cosmopolitan city since years and being reasonably educated, I just can't understand how the others would have understood it. Surely I wouldn't have done anything of that sort, despite not having any idea about the connection between monkey and racism. So can we put the acts of crowd under bad behaviour? Another question is, will they give respect to monkey since he is a deity in India? You said that people should be aware of other cultures too.
Zap_Brannigan Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 Yet, I haven't found even one answer as to why being compared to monkey is hurting to some and why being compared to an elephant isn't? What is to be so ashamed about looking like a monkey and why isn't that shameful if you look like an elephant? Because comparing black person to a monkey is mainly due to certain features pertaining to that particular race . But being fat is prominent in all races,religion etc. So it not tied to a particular race like monkey is tied to blacks. Chandan, i know majority of ppl in India are ignorant about other races cos they might have never encountered with one or never bothered to learn. And like i said, one incident like that could be put on stupidity. But can you tell me it took place in 3 diff cities? The only plausible explanation is that 2nd the 3rd cities learned abt this monkey business from media when symmonds talked abt it. So they knew that he was pissed off at people for those comments cos he thought them to be racists. Now these crowds probably thought it would be a good idea to repeat that to get under his skin. So they did it fully knowing well abt racism. The only other remotely possible explanation is that its the same crowd in all three venues.
Zap_Brannigan Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 "Another question is, will they give respect to monkey since he is a deity in India? You said that people should be aware of other cultures too." Isn't that pushing it a bit? I dont give respect to monkeys either and i know all the tradition and custom that goes with it. I don't give it respect to cos i dont find it logical. But "not giving respect" is not the same as shouting profanities and we are talking about monkeys and people here. You can't equate shouting profanities at monkeys with shouting profanities at people.
PaiN_KiLLeR Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 just some extra info ... 3 of the 4 guys arrested are from rich south mumbai parsi families. now surely these guys have travelled abroad and must be knowing how offensive monkey chants are considered to be. they are definitely not some ignorant villagers who dont know what racism is.
Chandan Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 Because comparing black person to a monkey is mainly due to certain features pertaining to that particular race . But being fat is prominent in all races,religion etc. So it not tied to a particular race like monkey is tied to blacks. Chandan, i know majority of ppl in India are ignorant about other races cos they might have never encountered with one or never bothered to learn. And like i said, one incident like that could be put on stupidity. But can you tell me it took place in 3 diff cities? The only plausible explanation is that 2nd the 3rd cities learned abt this monkey business from media when symmonds talked abt it. So they knew that he was pissed off at people for those comments cos he thought them to be racists. Now these crowds probably thought it would be a good idea to repeat that to get under his skin. So they did it fully knowing well abt racism. The only other remotely possible explanation is that its the same crowd in all three venues. As I gather from you as well as many other forummers here that monkey has an insulting relation to blacks. Still don't know why. Perhaps blacks are ashamed from within about their looks? Why is that so? Whatever might be the reason, I have come to know about this truth. Just tell me why were Mark Waugh and Allan Border were saying that monkey chants were not racism? If that is so, is Symonds pretending to be getting offended by a nothing-affair hence creating a storm in a tea-cup? Symonds being precious: Mark Waugh, Border Melbourne (PTI): Former Australian cricketers feel all-rounder Andrew Symonds was being "precious" in alleging that he was subjected to racist chants during the one-day series in India and the issue was being blown out of proportion. Mark Waugh said just making monkey noises did not amount to racism. "What is Andrew Symonds complaining about -- monkey noises?" Waugh said on Fox Sports' 'Inside Cricket'. "Does that come down to racism, without actually saying any words. I don't know." Waugh, who made several tours of India during his career, said such taunts were part of the game. "It didn't worry me. I don't know if we are getting a bit precious here, really," he said. Former captain Allan Border agreed that the crowds always tried to irritate the visiting side. "There has always been taunts from crowds, from as long as I can remember," Border said. --------------------------------------------------- So when they don't think it is racism, is Australian media just trying to create a false storm?
Zap_Brannigan Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 Racism without words? Are u fking kidding me?Right after 9/11 , you have no idea how many times ppl have been racists towards me. They search me in airports every freaking time and even when my name doesnt come up in random selection (cos it doesnt sound muslim ),they pull me from a line whnever they see me,i been shown the finger from random strangers, people looking at u differently or walking away from you....If he thinks that there can be no racism without words, he is a retard!!!
Chandan Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 Don't know Zap. Though some of the writers are blaming BCCI heavily and are saying that India has the maximum racism, "in a broader term" that the whole world can imagine, eg, upper castes looking down upon lower castes, rich always insulting to poor, one region of people deriding others from different rigions, one religion follower insulting people from other religion. Is this all racism?? I thought India had every discrimination possible in the world apart from racism which is dismininating between people from different race. Am I wrong?? The more I read about all these, more confused I'm getting!! This is the article I'm talking about: Deal with it now There is little to be gained in pretending that racism is something that exists in ‘other’ countries, writes Nirmal Shekar SPORT can at once bring out the best and the worst in us. It can illuminate the soul and elevate you. Or, it can return your soul to its primordial darkness. Whether we want to use sport to let our spirits soar or ride its passions to peek into our less-than-agreeable past depends entirely on us. In the event, the choice of a few cricket fans in Vadodara and Mumbai during the recent One-Day International series between India and Australia merely betrayed the rung they occupy in the ladder of civilisation. On the other hand, hard as it must have been on Andrew Symonds, the Australian all-rounder’s brave and gentlemanly response to the racist taunts from the stands was a testament to his strength of character as a champion and as a human being. Biggest surprise In an era when cricket in this country touches off base passions, the appallingly barbaric attitude of a few fans may not surprise too many. But the biggest surprise is that the Board of Control for Cricket in India appears to have been shocked that such a thing should have occurred in this country. There is little to be gained in pretending that racism is something that exists in ‘other’ countries, that India and its great culture have a natural immunity to this virus. This attitude reflects a lack of moral courage. If you employed the broadest possible definition of racism, then this country perhaps has more racists per square kilometre than most other countries on this planet. You only have to look up the matrimonial advertisements in any major newspaper in this country to get an idea about the ‘soft racism’ that is present among us. A meaningful solution to any problem can be found only if we are ready to admit the truth. “Racism is not only a problem in football, it’s a problem in society. Until we tackle it in society, we cannot tackle it in football,” said John Barnes, England’s most capped black footballer, a few years ago. While it might well be a problem that breaches the boundaries of sport in India too, in this particular case, to isolate these incidents as a small-town phenomenon in India or to take shelter behind their universality will hardly help us eradicate this deadly virus of the mind. Of course, what happened to Symonds can happen to Mahendra Singh Dhoni in Melbourne or Sydney a few weeks down the road. In fact, now that Symonds has been singled out and targeted, the chances of a member of the Indian team facing a hostile reception in Australia are that much more. This is precisely why cricket administrators in India have to go a long way beyond issuing joint statements with their Australian counterparts condemning the incidents. It will not do to merely say that such behaviour was unacceptable. Proper mechanisms will have to be put in place to prevent the occurrence of such incidents. As a first step, BCCI should immediately appoint an anti-racism officer who can then form his own team to tackle the issue head-on. A serious campaign should be launched to rid Indian cricket of racism. Lessons can be learnt from the English experience, both in football and in cricket. How effective was the Hit Racism for Six campaign in English cricket? What good did English football’s Kick It Out campaign do? Concerted efforts Serious concerted efforts involving social scientists should be made to engage fans and educate them. At the same time, punitive measures should be put in place to deal with the problem on a match-to-match basis. Unfortunately, the richest cricket board in the world has thought little about channelling some of the money generated by the game in the direction of the very people who help popularise the sport and turn it into a money-spinner. Could the organisers in Vadodara have prevented the racist abuse in a modern stadium with state-of-the-art security and surveillance systems in place? Probably, yes. But how much of BCCI’s income is spent on modernising facilities at stadiums? To maintain sport’s character as a civilised pastime providing wholesome entertainment for fans is not only a tougher job than raising a team to win a world championship but also one that is of greater importance. This task requires us to shed our moral flabbiness. ----------------------------------------------------- I fully agree with whatever the author is urging BCCI to do, but I don't agree with his definition of racism.
Chandan Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 just some extra info ... 3 of the 4 guys arrested are from rich south mumbai parsi families. now surely these guys have travelled abroad and must be knowing how offensive monkey chants are considered to be. they are definitely not some ignorant villagers who dont know what racism is. Come on Pain Killer. I didn't know that a monkey chant was akin to racism but I'm not a villager either. Many people don't agree that monkey chants are racist acts. And they are not ignorant fools either. It is a question of knowing the perspective. If Zap doesn't respect a monkey, because he is from a different religion apparantly, I'm not hurt or offended but I understand why he said so. Couldn't Symonds find that sense of perspective too, that monkeys don't have a negative connotation in India?
Zap_Brannigan Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 If Zap doesn't respect a monkey' date=' because he is from a different religion apparantly, I'm not hurt or offended but I understand why he said so.[/quote'] Just to clarify, I was born a hindu, I was raised a hindu, I just didn't want to stay a hindu. I wouldn't respect anything in the name of religion. Any religion.
Chandan Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 Just to clarify' date=' I was born a hindu, I was raised a hindu, I just didn't want to stay a hindu. I wouldn't respect anything in the name of religion. Any religion.[/quote'] Fair enough! Should I get hurt about it? Or offended? No way. Because I understand what you mean. Why is this sense of perspective lost on Symonds? Once again I say that I don't condone the crowd behaviour. That was hooliganism for which they should be punished, not racism.
Zap_Brannigan Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 What if i called you a stupid ,asinine pea-brain to your face because you follow a religion? Would you be offended? A couple of months back, I got a msg from a mod saying that a comment i made on islam was offending to some. A month back, again a comment i made on Rama was seen as offending by some. So you see, as long as i kept my mouth shut, its not offending anyone. If the crowd didn't make the noise, then i dont think symmonds would be offended at all.
Gaurav Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 What if i called you a stupid ' date='asinine pea-brain to your face [b']because you follow a religion? Would you be offended? It would be true though :hysterical::haha:
youngindia Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 Yet, I haven't found even one answer as to why being compared to monkey is hurting to some and why being compared to an elephant isn't?. I have repeatedly said that equating a look of a black man to a monkey is offensive. how is that you are not able to get such a simple thing? why are you repeatedly ignoring this key factor? and is it that you are too immersed in your apologist argument to see it? i am sorry i am losing my patience as you are repeatedly ignoring this. Just go to a black man and say "your face looks like a monkey" with the expectation that he may not get offended. your doubts may get resolved once and for all! you are being so illogical that it beggars belief here.
youngindia Posted October 19, 2007 Posted October 19, 2007 Come on Pain Killer. I didn't know that a monkey chant was akin to racism but I'm not a villager either. Many people don't agree that monkey chants are racist acts. And they are not ignorant fools either.? i totally disagree. they are all ignorant and naive. it does not matter what YOU THINK. Bother about how mean spirited people think. for a person a with a mean spirit, it is easy to find these mean impressions. I'm not hurt or offended but I understand why he said so. Couldn't Symonds find that sense of perspective too' date=' that monkeys don't have a negative connotation in India[/quote'] you are expecting symonds to ignore thtat his negroid look is being mocked as a monkey? is that going to happen? your comment " monkeys don't have a negative connotation in India" has no basis whatsoever.
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