Oldies are not required

[The Outsider]

Every team should drop their "seniors" because no one has been able to beat Australia. As for numbers in the finals, show me one "youngster" who has a better record to give us faith in them.

[living]

Every team should drop their "seniors" because no one has been able to beat Australia. As for numbers in the finals, show me one "youngster" who has a better record to give us faith in them.

Sorry for the outburst but ^ that is what I wanted to say. Got pissed because SRT gets lumped with the "Seniors that do not perform" group. Average against aussies - last 20 matches STJ : 29.05 SRT: 39.95 SO FAK OFF AGAIN (not you Shetabh, this one is for bumper) :finger:

[bharat297]

We lost the games that mattered in the last one year, exiting from the world cup, ICC CT, Malaysian triangular, in a humiliating manner, without even getting past teams like WI & BD. Winning some meaningless bilateral 3 game series against BD or SAF or losing to England, hardly matter an year from now (unless we beat a hi voltage opponent such as Australia or Pakistan, which atleast gives us some bragging rights). And why would i care about WI or Pakistan. I'll still humour you anyways -- WI forced their alltime great Lara to retire & Pak forced their alltime great Inzi to retire, both of whom can still play at the peak of their powers. And the example of WI is hardly appropriate. We have a lot more talent than WI waiting in the wings. Its possible to justify a spot in the lineup for Sachin, just as its possible to justify Lara's or Inzi's spot in their respective lineups. If SRT decides to play till 2009 & then hangs his boots, we'll hardly have 12-18 months left to groom an opener for the next world cup. Yes ? And how exactly does playing him enhance our chances of winning anything (as i showed you with some stats on what he has been able or not able to do) ? If we are gonna win the triangular Down Under or an ICC CT next year or a world cup, then I'd keep him for that glory. With no such hope, its a waste of time & a spot. LOL, back at you. The fact that he played his last finals back in 2004 itself is indictment of the performance of the trio, innit ? Guess why it was so long ago. Perhaps the fact that we didnt even bother qualifying for the finals has something to do with it ? :haha: Did you know that the first ten finals Sachin played in, he averaged a measely 32 ? Look, am not saying Yuvraj is a better player than Sachin. Infact we may not find a better player than SRT for years to come, but we must invest in our youth. Besides, Yuvraj batted for most of this time in question, low down the order, where it is very difficult to make an impact. But still Yuvi, Sehwag & Kaif were the stars in our multi nation tourney victories this decade (Natwest, ICC CT). Did you check his record vs Australia in the last 3 years ? Perhaps you should. He averages a paltry 32 against Australia since 2004. Since 2006, the avg falls to 30. Whats the big deal!

Seems like you answered everything I said in my post except for the one thing that I actually asked, which was to tell me what Sachin has (or hasnt) done this year to warrant being dropped from the Indian side now? Ultimately, I would rather have a team full of players in-form rather than simply have a young team and sit around waiting for their form to turn around.

[Hawkeye]

Yep, this thread had to come after yesterday's thumping victory and here it is. Perhaps we should have it every dam time after India win in a 20/20. Test matches and less so 50/50 ODI are completely different beasts. You need long established talent, temperement and experience to get the team out of trouble when required, to stabalise the innings and to create a path to victory. Look at the Windies. Is anyone surprised that they were crucified when they came to England this summer with Lara and Sarwan not in the team? India are going to have an uphill struggle in Australia and I don't even want to think about what will happen if the big three were not there. The solution is, at first, to rotate by leaving one of them out in each ODI and to take it from there.

[living]

and btw I don't get this logic - What do you mean by games that mattered? Tell me does performing in the group stage of a tournament matter at all? Ok SRT relax in the group stages of the tournament and save your energy for the final .... oh wait a minute there won't be a freakin final if SRT doesn't play in the group stage ..... So I guess the group stage games matter after all ....

[gs]

Yep, this thread had to come after yesterday's thumping victory and here it is. Perhaps we should have it every dam time after India win in a 20/20. Test matches and less so 50/50 ODI are completely different beasts. You need long established talent, temperement and experience to get the team out of trouble when required, to stabalise the innings and to create a path to victory. Look at the Windies. Is anyone surprised that they were crucified when they came to England this summer with Lara and Sarwan not in the team? India are going to have an uphill struggle in Australia and I don't even want to think about what will happen if the big three were not there. The solution is, at first, to rotate by leaving one of them out in each ODI and to take it from there.

I agree, but seniors never vacate their spots!! Ganguly scored runs but at a leisurely pace, Dravid never scored anything meaningful - only SRT did in a couple of matches but failed miserably in another couple. But how many opted out for rotation voluntarily?!? I see the same story for the Pak one dayers as well. Its not about seniors being good enough or not, but if there is no change in results irrespective of juniors/seniors playing, I would rather play the promising youngsters for T20/ODIs to groom them for future. Consider a hypothetical situation where VVS was still playing ODIs, which would have probably kept Uthappa out of the team. Can you imagine what kinda impact this would have had on the team's batting and fielding?!? It might or maynot work, but is definitely worth a try.

[yoda]

It is absurd to ask SRT to quit ODIs based on merit. Ganguly should get the fack out ASAP. Dravid's current form means he should also think about quitting sooner (like NOW) than later.

[Bumper]

Every team should drop their "seniors" because no one has been able to beat Australia.

Wrong. Look around you & see what you find. Lankan seniors have proven that they can win games that matter. They just took their team to the world cup finals. And the one senior (Atapattu) who was blocking the path of a bright youngster has already made his way. NZ's Fleming stepped down from ODIs himself knowing that he wont make it to the next world cup. This after exiting from the semis. WI booted Lara out from both forms of their game, seeing the lack of results. Pak forced Inzi to retire from both forms of the game, after the WC debacle. Even England, which is the worst example to emulate, has gotten over their fantasy with Vaughan. Teams all around the world have taken steps to move their cricket forward, except us.

As for numbers in the finals, show me one "youngster" who has a better record to give us faith in them.

How many of them have played for the last 7 years at the top order consistently ? Besides this is hardly a convincing argument. There are 2-3 oldies & potentially an infinite stream of youngsters. We'll keep trying the youngsters until we find the right group. We tried Raina, Mongia & failed. We tried Uthappa & have had decent success. Between Gambhir, Rohit, Badri & Tiwary am sure we can groom atleast two fine ODI batsmen who can serve us for years. Besides failing is part of the learning curve for the youngsters. They will be better for the experience & the talented ones will come back as better players (Irfan Pathan). In short, you will keep the youngsters out and play the oldies, only to attain some short term glory. As it is with the oldies, we are not even sure of qualifying for the finals in the triangular Down Under in Jan. So whats the big deal anyways ?

[Bumper]

It is absurd to ask SRT to quit ODIs based on merit. Ganguly should get the fack out ASAP. Dravid's current form means he should also think about quitting sooner (like NOW) than later.

My point yoda is different. Its true that SRT will deserve a spot in the ODI team, either on form or on reputation alone. But we must ask ourselves, what do we intend to get out of him ? If he chooses to play for another couple of years & decides to hang his boots we'll be hardly left with 12 months to groom an opener for the next world cup. That risk is worth taking ONLY if we are gonna enhance our chances of winning something BIG in the mean time, with SRT in the lineup. To me, this issue is as simple as that!

[gs]

My point yoda is different. Its true that SRT will deserve a spot in the ODI team' date=' either on form or on reputation alone. But we must ask ourselves, what do we intend to get out of him ? If he chooses to play for another couple of years & decides to hang his boots we'll be hardly left with 12 months to groom an opener for the next world cup. That risk is worth taking ONLY if we are gonna enhance our chances of winning something BIG in the mean time, with SRT in the lineup. To me, this issue is as simple as that![/quote'] True, if someone doesn't fit into the WC 2011 plans, I don't see the reason why he should be played consistently in the team! On a rotation basis - yes, consistently - no. I am ok with SRT being in the playing 14 or 15, so that he is still in the mix of things and India could use his vast experience and knowledge of the game.

[The Outsider]

I've already said that Tendulkar, Dravid, and Ganguly should be phased out of ODIs. It's only when people start presenting their performance as a reason for dropping them that things get absurd. I would rest all of them in the upcoming series against Pakistan but certainly not on the basis of performance which holds doubly true for Tendulkar. It would have been laughable to suggest that he does not deserve his ODI spot, only if it wasn't repeated so many times with serious faces.

[Bumper]

True' date=' if someone doesn't fit into the WC 2011 plans, I don't see the reason why he should be played consistently in the team! On a rotation basis - yes, consistently - no. I am ok with SRT being in the playing 14 or 15, so that he is still in the mix of things and India could use his vast experience and knowledge of the game.[/quote'] Thats fair, if he is used in a rotation mode. But in reality that wont happen. Our cricket board would fear the backlash from the fans & the media and will keep playing him. The youngsters will only get dead rubber games, which will hardly teach them much.

[yoda]

My point yoda is different. Its true that SRT will deserve a spot in the ODI team' date=' either on form or on reputation alone. But we must ask ourselves, what do we intend to get out of him ? If he chooses to play for another couple of years & decides to hang his boots we'll be hardly left with 12 months to groom an opener for the next world cup. That risk is worth taking ONLY if we are gonna enhance our chances of winning something BIG in the mean time, with SRT in the lineup. To me, this issue is as simple as that![/quote'] We need to play many ODIs between now and 2011. SRT's fans and Indian ODI fans in general would love to watch him play as long as he is still producing. He is a pleasure to watch when on song, and he is playing very well in ODIs. I would first start with grooming a partner for SRT rather than grooming his replacement. In 2009 or 2010, if his form dips, would make sense to look for his repacement unless of course he decides to call it quits from ODIs before that.

[kabira]

World Cup planning should start in 2009...too early..

[Bumper]

Seems like you answered everything I said in my post except for the one thing that I actually asked, which was to tell me what Sachin has (or hasnt) done this year to warrant being dropped from the Indian side now?

I thought I already answered that. I'll do so once again. You play a senior who is not gonna be around for more than a couple of years, if you see immense benefits in playing him in the short term. Aussies see such benefits in playing Gilly and Hayden, justifiably so, given their track record. Our seniors unfortunately dont have that kinda track record, to inspire the same confidence in us. The records i brought up in the finals, is not just to show how poorly they have performed when it mattered, but also to show what can be expected (or not expected) of them in the future. If you want to take your cricket forward, you have to make these tough calls like WI or Pak did with their greats. If we are gonna wait till we find a better player than Tendulkar to replace him, we may have to wait forever.

[The Outsider]

You play a senior who is not gonna be around for more than a couple of years, if you see immense benefits in playing him in the short term

Tendulkar is India's best or maybe second best ODI batsman. How is playing him not immensely beneficial to the side? And you keep giving examples of the functioning of Pakistan and WI cricket. I don't see how you can do that with a straight face.

[Lurker]

That would be a fair comparison, if Murali, Jayasuriya were big liabillities on their team, come the big games. For the record, Jayasuriya averages 50 in the 18 finals he has played in this decade, with one century & 8 50s (without playing a single minnow, mind you!) Murali averages 23 at an E/R of 4.29 in 17 finals with 24 wickets. And Vaas hit par with an avg of 28 at an E/R of 4.6 in 18 finals, 23 wickets. Jayasuriya is still close to the peak of his powers. He averaged 46.70 in the last world cup, with 2 100s, 2 50s, with a fighting 50 in the cup finals vs the Aussies. The one senior SL thought would be a liability (Attapattu) made way to a bright youngster Chamara DeSilva. Now sample the record of our big three in finals in this decade, for a second: Tendulkar, 12 finals @ 27.00 Dravid 14 finals @ 29.00 Ganguly 15 finals @ 27.00 Are you able to scan this with a straight face ? What have these guys won for the past 7 years ? Mind you the older Jayasuriya played an influential role in winning atleast NINE finals in the same time. Do you seriously believe investing anymore time in them, will take our cricket forward ? If so , I'd like to hear why ? What is that we expect to accomplish by playing them, that they have not managed for close to 7 years ? Are we gonna be the lead contenders for winning the triangular trophy in Jan'08 Down Under ? Or do we forsee any of these guys playing in the 2011 world cup ? Their averages, records, centuries are all great. But useless IMO, in taking our ODI cricket forward. The big three must retire gracefully & let the young ones take over. Otherwise it may be too late to rebuild the team for the 2011 cup.

Brilliantly put. Dont need to add anything to this. It is interesting how after every 20/20 success, and we have had quite a few recently, the underlying comment by most expert is largely - India needs to take some hard decisions. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out what is meant by that, does it? xxx

[Bumper]

Tendulkar is India's best or maybe second best ODI batsman. How is playing him not immensely beneficial to the side?

It would immensely benefit us if he is able to replicate his routine form, in the big stage too, where he has been found wanting to say the least. U dont have to look beyond Gilly to understand the point. This man had an ordinary world cup till the finals. Cometh the finals, arriveth Gilly. He bludgeoned the best ever Lankan attack of all time, on his way to his best ever ODI innings, only bettering his already stellar record in grand finals -- a performance that brought tremendous amount of pride and glory to their country. Now imagine a Tendulkar in a similar situation. Fortunately u dont have to imagine, he happened to play the same attack earlier in the tourney, in a situation thats not exactly comparable to a world cup finals, but one that had reasonable amount of pressure associated with it & our man vamoosed for ZERO. Now check Tendulkar's record in the meaningless games preceding the world cup. They look very respectable. U could justify his spot on form, averages, strike rate etc. But didnt help when it mattered, did it ?

And you keep giving examples of the functioning of Pakistan and WI cricket. I don't see how you can do that with a straight face.

I only did so, because bharat brought it up & u also mentioned this:

Every team should drop their "seniors" because no one has been able to beat Australia.

Besides the comparison in this case was apples to apples (one all time great vs another)

[The Outsider]

Now imagine a Tendulkar in a similar situation. Fortunately u dont have to imagine, he happened to play the same attack earlier in the tourney, in a situation thats not exactly comparable to a world cup finals, but one that had reasonable amount of pressure associated with it & our man vamoosed for ZERO. Now check Tendulkar's record in the meaningless games preceding the world cup. They look very respectable. U could justify his spot on form, averages, strike rate etc. But didnt help when it mattered, did it ?

Tendulkar faltered in just one World Cup and India failed to make it to the next stage. Do you see a connection there? It has been because of this guy that we have reached the knock out stages of World Cups, CTs, and have managed to beat Australia. He is the main reason for India having a half decent ODI record over the last 18 years and he falters in one tournament and we are out of it. That is the extent we are dependent on his performances.

Besides the comparison in this case was apples to apples (one all time great vs another)

Inzamam and Lara are much older than Tendulkar and both were preforming at a far lower level than Tendulkar is at the moment. They were averaging around the 30 run mark as opposed to 45 that Tendulkar is averaging.

[Hawkeye]

I agree' date=' but seniors never vacate their spots!! Ganguly scored runs but at a leisurely pace, Dravid never scored anything meaningful - only SRT did in a couple of matches but failed miserably in another couple. But how many opted out for rotation voluntarily?!? I see the same story for the Pak one dayers as well. Its not about seniors being good enough or not, but if there is no change in results irrespective of juniors/seniors playing, I would rather play the promising youngsters for T20/ODIs to groom them for future. Consider a hypothetical situation where VVS was still playing ODIs, which would have probably kept Uthappa out of the team. Can you imagine what kinda impact this would have had on the team's batting and fielding?!? It might or maynot work, but is definitely worth a try.[/quote'] Remember that all 3 seniors freely vacated their 20/20 spots and quite rightly so. That said they were and remain perfectly within their rights to keep their foot in the ODIs for as long as they continue to perform consistently. In any event it's for the selectors who ultimately decide who plays and who doesn't. Dravid, for example, was dropped in the last ODI which was not particularly surprising. The team is in need of a good mix and as I say rotation is key.