Oldies are not required

[Yuvraj4Captaincy]

They are legends and all but the time has come...with oldies in the team, we lose anyways so the worst that can happen is we lose with the youngins in odi but atleast we will be building a team for the future.

[Chaos]

yep, Yuvraj4captaincy not needed on this forum

[Yuvraj4Captaincy]

lol..who r u?...do u own this forum? if not. feed ur mouth some more shiet and shove it up ur arse again....

[gs]

Where the hell was the so called "rotation" in the ODI series against Australia?!?

[Yuvraj4Captaincy]

once these maharathis get in, its hard to rotate them cuz they wanna stick to their position

[gs]

once these maharathis get in' date=' its hard to rotate them cuz they wanna stick to their position[/quote'] They can do that if they are delivering and results are in India's favor. But with the kind of results we are getting from them, they should have absolutely no say in this respect!

[bharat297]

Based on T20 success ... hahaha . Seriously this is a mind numbingly stupid thread. Who has been our top run scorer in the past 3 ODI series? Ganguly and Tendulkar are not just the most successful opening partnership in ODI history, but they are the most successful partnership in ODI history altogether. Between October 2005 and May 2007, India had more than enough time to find a consistent opener other than sachin and sourav and they didnt. Also, all this crap about these seniors not wanting to move from their positions is absolute rubbish, without any form of proof whatsoever. Despite the fact that Ganguly and Tendulkar are the best ever opening combo in ODIs , Ganguly batted at no.3 for nearly 5 or 6 years to allow Sehwag and Tendulkar to develop a combo, and it was only this year that he returned as opener. Tendulkar was moved down to no.4 not because he wasnt a good opener but because the middle order was really struggling, so Chappel wanted some reliability there. And in that short space of time, Sachin did make 3 fifties and a century, so its not like he completely failed there. Sachin moved there because it was in the best interests of the team, but then the the team continued to fail at the top, so he had to go back there. I mean, would Matthew Hayden bat anywhere besides opener?

[Cricketics]

kya teri family batting karne jaayegi australia?? and will win us the series?? if yet then yaa lets drop all seniorz..

[bharat297]

This stupid philosophy about us not beating Australia with the seniors means we should drop them is flawed. Sri Lanka wont beat Australia with Muralitharan or Vaas or Jayasuriya, so therefore they should drop them? Complete crap. Thinking for the future is important, but it is also important not to neglect the present. In each game, you need to pick what you believe is the best side for that particular match. The best opening combo, the best middle order, the best keeper, the best allrounder, the best spinner, the best pace attack, and the best fielders. It is important to get a good balance between these things .

[Bumper]

This stupid philosophy about us not beating Australia with the seniors means we should drop them is flawed. Sri Lanka wont beat Australia with Muralitharan or Vaas or Jayasuriya' date= so therefore they should drop them? Complete crap. Thinking for the future is important, but it is also important not to neglect the present. In each game, you need to pick what you believe is the best side for that particular match. The best opening combo, the best middle order, the best keeper, the best allrounder, the best spinner, the best pace attack, and the best fielders. It is important to get a good balance between these things .

That would be a fair comparison, if Murali, Jayasuriya were big liabillities on their team, come the big games. For the record, Jayasuriya averages 50 in the 18 finals he has played in this decade, with one century & 8 50s (without playing a single minnow, mind you!) Murali averages 23 at an E/R of 4.29 in 17 finals with 24 wickets. And Vaas hit par with an avg of 28 at an E/R of 4.6 in 18 finals, 23 wickets. Jayasuriya is still close to the peak of his powers. He averaged 46.70 in the last world cup, with 2 100s, 2 50s, with a fighting 50 in the cup finals vs the Aussies. The one senior SL thought would be a liability (Attapattu) made way to a bright youngster Chamara DeSilva. Now sample the record of our big three in finals in this decade, for a second: Tendulkar, 12 finals @ 27.00 Dravid 14 finals @ 29.00 Ganguly 15 finals @ 27.00 Are you able to scan this with a straight face ? What have these guys won for the past 7 years ? Mind you the older Jayasuriya played an influential role in winning atleast NINE finals in the same time. Do you seriously believe investing anymore time in them, will take our cricket forward ? If so , I'd like to hear why ? What is that we expect to accomplish by playing them, that they have not managed for close to 7 years ? Are we gonna be the lead contenders for winning the triangular trophy in Jan'08 Down Under ? Or do we forsee any of these guys playing in the 2011 world cup ? Their averages, records, centuries are all great. But useless IMO, in taking our ODI cricket forward. The big three must retire gracefully & let the young ones take over. Otherwise it may be too late to rebuild the team for the 2011 cup.

[living]

That would be a fair comparison, if Murali, Jayasuriya were big liabillities on their team, come the big games. For the record, Jayasuriya averages 50 in the 18 finals he has played in this decade, with one century & 8 50s (without playing a single minnow, mind you!) Murali averages 23 at an E/R of 4.29 in 17 finals with 24 wickets. And Vaas hit par with an avg of 28 at an E/R of 4.6 in 18 finals, 23 wickets. Jayasuriya is still close to the peak of his powers. He averaged 46.70 in the last world cup, with 2 100s, 2 50s, with a fighting 50 in the cup finals vs the Aussies. The one senior SL thought would be a liability (Attapattu) made way to a bright youngster Chamara DeSilva. Now sample the record of our big three in finals in this decade, for a second: Tendulkar, 12 finals @ 27.00 Dravid 14 finals @ 29.00 Ganguly 15 finals @ 27.00 Are you able to scan this with a straight face ? What have these guys won for the past 7 years ? Mind you the older Jayasuriya played an influential role in winning atleast NINE finals in the same time. Do you seriously believe investing anymore time in them, will take our cricket forward ? If so , I'd like to hear why ? What is that we expect to accomplish by playing them, that they have not managed for close to 7 years ? Are we gonna be the lead contenders for winning the triangular trophy in Jan'08 Down Under ? Or do we forsee any of these guys playing in the 2011 world cup ? Their averages, records, centuries are all great. But useless IMO, in taking our ODI cricket forward. The big three must retire gracefully & let the young ones take over. Otherwise it may be too late to rebuild the team for the 2011 cup.

Now that I'm pissed all I want to say is FAK YOU.... and atleast is 2 words :finger: senior hater, if pak were to listen to you Moyo would have been playing only tests abd pak would have lost their ODI today. just saying again :finger: oh yeah and we were discussing performance against aussies not performance in finals.

[veer]

Yes oldies are NOT required in 20/20.. agreed.. SRT is still capable but to preserve him for longer formats.. he shouldnt be playing.. :D

[Bumper]

Now that I'm pissed all I want to say is FAK YOU.... and atleast is 2 words :finger: senior hater, if pak were to listen to you Moyo would have been playing only tests abd pak would have lost their ODI today. just saying again :finger: oh yeah and we were discussing performance against aussies not performance in finals.

Should be one helluva echo when u speak, with your head so far up your ar$e, eh:hysterical: If you are capable of even half intelligent discussions, (which looks like a remote possibility now :haha:) pls let me know, I'll honor you with a response. In the mean time, get back to the hole you emerged from until you get your next opportunity to crawl out & mouth your inane gibberish

[Ram]

Now that I'm pissed all I want to say is FAK YOU.... and atleast is 2 words :finger: senior hater, if pak were to listen to you Moyo would have been playing only tests abd pak would have lost their ODI today. just saying again :finger: oh yeah and we were discussing performance against aussies not performance in finals.

What an outburst ! Looks like Living had a bad day at work ! :haha:

[fineleg]

Bumper, Excellent post with the numbers. We are a mediocre team with Maharathis, whats the big deal if we play without them?

[Ram]

We are a mediocre team with Maharathis, whats the big deal if we play without them?

That is a VERY simplistic reasoning. We will get our ass whooped even worse if we were to drop all the seniors now. Its just not an equation of booting 3 men out and replacing them with three new faces, people fail to see that.

[fineleg]

MM, If they (bcci) are willing to take that step, I'm willing to endure skewed losses for a year. I think it will benefit in the long run. But they wont do that, so at least they must play only ONE maharathi per ODI match. Sit out two and rotate them.

[Ram]

MM, If they (bcci) are willing to take that step, I'm willing to endure skewed losses for a year. I think it will benefit in the long run. But they wont do that, so at least they must play only ONE maharathi per ODI match. Sit out two and rotate them.

Do you realize that reducing this to a numbers game ( endure losses for one year , play only one maharathi per match) could lead to absolutely disastrous consequences ? We are a team finding its feat under a new captain with decent results in the past months. We have a few seniors who can still contribute to our victories. The challenge is to decide how to phase in the youngsters , yet slowly reduce the role of the seniors in the shorter form of the game , which is already happening. Ad-Hoc policies based on pre-fixed notions without the benefit of hindsight will put our team into tatters. And this contention that " lets endure losses for a year" is wishful thinking too. Whats the guarantee that the youngsters will deliver after that ? What if they just peter out , like many before ? We need a well planned , co-ordinated , long-term ( 15-18 months) action plan on how to phase out the seniors. Not some random off-the-top-of-the-head numbers thrown in.

[bharat297]

Bumper, Excellent post with the numbers. We are a mediocre team with Maharathis, whats the big deal if we play without them?

Well this year we have won 4 from 6 series (excluding the WC) so we havent done too bad. West Indies are a mediocre team with Chanderpaul so does that mean they should drop Chanderpaul? Pakistan are a mediocre team with Yousuf, so should they drop him? Its easy to take the quick fix option and think that dropping seniors will change everything. The fact is, that India have not lost the matches this year due to seniors (although some of the recent losses could be attributed to the poor form of Dravid). India's middle order has consistently crumbled this year. That is the area we should be looking at , but some idiots cant see that. But in the case of Sachin. Lets look at the facts. * In form - Yes * In form against the best opposition - Yes * Injury free (relatively) - Yes * Scoring quickly - Yes * Scored runs in difficult batting conditions - Yes * 3rd highest run scorer this year - Yes * Has played crucial matchwinning knocks under pressure - Yes (he has played several this year) The funny thing is, of those stats brought up by bumper, his poor average in finals is attributed to some failures in the early 2000's. So its not okay for Sachin supporters to bring up achievements he made in the past, but failures in the past are incredibely accurate predictions of what he will do next game. LOL. His last grand final appearance was back in 2004 in the Asia cup , in which he scored 74. His overall record in finals is still higher than his career average. But even that poor record in finals this decade is still higher than Yuvraj who averages 18.41. The only reason we excuse Yuvraj for that is because he is young, but he is not anymore. Yuvraj has been around for 8 years, and is in fantastic form, but it is time he starts to produce consistent performances in pressure matches. Its not about past achievements or past failures or whatever. It is about 2 things 1. Does the particular player have the technique and the ability to handle the Australians on Australian soil? 2. Is the particular player in form? The answers to 1 and 2 are yes for Sachin. Can anyone honestly answer Yes for Gambhir? If 1 and 2 are good, then records can change. Sachin's average in past 10 games against Australia was 20 before this series, but he was our best batsman this series and produced a couple of crucial knocks under pressure. So records can change if the player is in form, and has the ability. Let me sum up by asking the Sachin haters 1 question. Any side, regardless of age should be picked on current form, so what has Sachin done (or not done) this year to warrant dropping him?

[Bumper]

Well this year we have won 4 from 6 series (excluding the WC) so we havent done too bad. West Indies are a mediocre team with Chanderpaul so does that mean they should drop Chanderpaul? Pakistan are a mediocre team with Yousuf, so should they drop him? Its easy to take the quick fix option and think that dropping seniors will change everything. The fact is, that India have not lost the matches this year due to seniors (although some of the recent losses could be attributed to the poor form of Dravid). India's middle order has consistently crumbled this year. That is the area we should be looking at , but some idiots cant see that.

We lost the games that mattered in the last one year, exiting from the world cup, ICC CT, Malaysian triangular, in a humiliating manner, without even getting past teams like WI & BD. Winning some meaningless bilateral 3 game series against BD or SAF or losing to England, hardly matter an year from now (unless we beat a hi voltage opponent such as Australia or Pakistan, which atleast gives us some bragging rights). And why would i care about WI or Pakistan. I'll still humour you anyways -- WI forced their alltime great Lara to retire & Pak forced their alltime great Inzi to retire, both of whom can still play at the peak of their powers. And the example of WI is hardly appropriate. We have a lot more talent than WI waiting in the wings.

But in the case of Sachin. Lets look at the facts. * In form - Yes * In form against the best opposition - Yes * Injury free (relatively) - Yes * Scoring quickly - Yes * Scored runs in difficult batting conditions - Yes * 3rd highest run scorer this year - Yes * Has played crucial matchwinning knocks under pressure - Yes (he has played several this year)

Its possible to justify a spot in the lineup for Sachin, just as its possible to justify Lara's or Inzi's spot in their respective lineups. If SRT decides to play till 2009 & then hangs his boots, we'll hardly have 12-18 months left to groom an opener for the next world cup. Yes ? And how exactly does playing him enhance our chances of winning anything (as i showed you with some stats on what he has been able or not able to do) ? If we are gonna win the triangular Down Under or an ICC CT next year or a world cup, then I'd keep him for that glory. With no such hope, its a waste of time & a spot.

The funny thing is, of those stats brought up by bumper, his poor average in finals is attributed to some failures in the early 2000's. So its not okay for Sachin supporters to bring up achievements he made in the past, but failures in the past are incredibely accurate predictions of what he will do next game. LOL. His last grand final appearance was back in 2004 in the Asia cup , in which he scored 74. His overall record in finals is still higher than his career average.

LOL, back at you. The fact that he played his last finals back in 2004 itself is indictment of the performance of the trio, innit ? Guess why it was so long ago. Perhaps the fact that we didnt even bother qualifying for the finals has something to do with it ? :haha:

But even that poor record in finals this decade is still higher than Yuvraj who averages 18.41. The only reason we excuse Yuvraj for that is because he is young, but he is not anymore. Yuvraj has been around for 8 years, and is in fantastic form, but it is time he starts to produce consistent performances in pressure matches.

Did you know that the first ten finals Sachin played in, he averaged a measely 32 ? Look, am not saying Yuvraj is a better player than Sachin. Infact we may not find a better player than SRT for years to come, but we must invest in our youth. Besides, Yuvraj batted for most of this time in question, low down the order, where it is very difficult to make an impact. But still Yuvi, Sehwag & Kaif were the stars in our multi nation tourney victories this decade (Natwest, ICC CT).

Its not about past achievements or past failures or whatever. It is about 2 things 1. Does the particular player have the technique and the ability to handle the Australians on Australian soil? 2. Is the particular player in form? The answers to 1 and 2 are yes for Sachin. Can anyone honestly answer Yes for Gambhir? If 1 and 2 are good, then records can change. Sachin's average in past 10 games against Australia was 20 before this series, but he was our best batsman this series and produced a couple of crucial knocks under pressure. So records can change if the player is in form, and has the ability.

Did you check his record vs Australia in the last 3 years ? Perhaps you should. He averages a paltry 32 against Australia since 2004. Since 2006, the avg falls to 30. Whats the big deal!