Selfish Hayden cost Australia '05 Ashes

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just 118 runs seperating him and RD ..... over 25 innings ... And do you agree that Averages can be misleading over short samples straight answer as in Yes /No please.

Why are you side stepping the issue ? 1) Dravid is averaging 10 whole points better. 118 runs is huge in a small sample of 25 innings 2) Even if Dravid were to average as bad as Tendulkar, he HAS WON games for India in this time (vs WI for example). What has Tendulkar done in this time ? 3) Even if Dravid were to average as poorly & did not win anything, he WAS CAPTAIN So the comparison hardly makes sense. You should be comparing Tendulkar with others who have performed poorly. And each one of them were dropped.

[Guest BossBhai]

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No i dont agree, average is misleading. Averages are misleading if your sample is too small such as one 3 test series. For 25 innings, average is a fair metric. Runs scored is not!

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Now you answer my qn Boss, isnt it unfair that every other non-performer has been dropped, while Tendulkar's spot is not even in question ?

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Guest BossBhai]

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I diagree because the lower order batsmen like VVS & MSD/Gangs have a better chance of being not out at the end ... which boosts their averages .... and 25 innings is still a small sample it wont even qualify as a good sample if you want to be soo statistically speaking.

But you are comparing runs scored by two top order bats though (Dravid vs Tendulkar) ? Even otherwise, lower order bats dont get as much chance to build a big innings as a top order bat. How many times, have we seen Laxman bat with Kumble & the tail, when he is well set ? Add to it the fact that lower order bats, may not get a chance to bat in dull draws or a small chase. So it works both ways.

[bharat297]

Ok, i presume u are talking about this stats list you posted on the other thread. Player Runs Inngs No Avg R Dravid 878 25 4 41.81 SC Ganguly 871 25 2 37.87 VVS Laxman 865 25 5 43.25 MS Dhoni 780 25 1 32.50 V Sehwag 757 25 2 32.91 SR Tendulkar 762 25 1 31.75 W Jaffer 772 25 0 30.88 Yuvraj Singh 634 25 3 28.82

So based on your stats, Rahul Dravid and VVS Laxman are our 2 most inform batsman? The person with one of the lowest averages there in Jaffer is actually performing better than Dravid in the past 3 series'., but you wouldnt know that from your stats. Here is another one ... Brian Lara between June 1999 and April 2001 * 23 innings * 727 runs @ 31.6 ... why didnt West Indies drop Lara?

[Lurker]

Now you answer my qn Boss' date=' isnt it unfair that every other non-performer has been dropped, while Tendulkar's spot is not even in question ?[/quote'] I think most Sachin fans would admit, if tacidly, that yes his spot is very much in question. It is a whole different game that they shall stand their ground and say on the contrary. The problem with being a Sachin critic is that most Sachin fans just seem to lack reason at times. I mean if you criticize Sachin for having failed in 25 tests and counting the question becomes - Why didnt you say it after first 5? And then in the same vein they will come back saying give him leeway. We are talking of 25 tests, about 7-8 series, how much leeway does one deserve?

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Dont think RD has been droped (and rightly so) there is a lot of diff between a SRT/RD and the rest .. isnt it ?

RD dropped ? :haha: Are you serious ? He is our best test bat, in the last 2 years. Even going by the averages (which includes his WORST phase as a batsman in the last 2 years), he still tops the list. Add to it the fact that he was captain in this time. I dont know how you could even compare SRT & RD with a straight face ? SRT OTOH, has been no good for any opponent in this time, other than Bangladesh. Its been a while since he offered a fight (leave alone win tests) against quality attacks, consistently. PS: Answer this question for me, if SRT fails to cross an avg of 35 in the next two big series, would you agree that we need to sack him ? Yes or No ?

[Lurker]

So based on your stats' date=' [b']Rahul Dravid and VVS Laxman are our 2 most inform batsman? The person with one of the lowest averages there in Jaffer is actually performing better than Dravid in the past 3 series'., but you wouldnt know that from your stats.

What that stats tells you is that Indian batting has sucked and SRT has sucked the most. Do you agree or disagree? Seconly what that stats tells you is that while Jaffer, Yuvraj, VVS gets kicked out every test possible SRT is sitting there as if he is the best batsman, when he is anything but. Again, agree/disagree?

Here is another one ... Brian Lara between June 1999 and April 2001 * 23 innings * 727 runs @ 31.6 ... why didnt West Indies drop Lara?

Maybe because then Lara came back with a series averaging 116 against Murali? Murali still considers it the best batting he has seen. Plus it is world of a difference between sucking in 23 innings and 25 tests. Agree/disagree? xxx

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So based on your stats, Rahul Dravid and VVS Laxman are our 2 most inform batsman? The person with one of the lowest averages there in Jaffer is actually performing better than Dravid in the past 3 series'., but you wouldnt know that from your stats. Here is another one ... Brian Lara between June 1999 and April 2001 * 23 innings * 727 runs @ 31.6 ... why didnt West Indies drop Lara?

Feel free to read my whole post & answer all the qns i raised, instead of clinging on to the ones you want to answer.why is it that every non-performer (that included Laxman, duh!) has been dropped while Sach is not ? And do i care why Brian Lara wasnt dropped by WI in 1999 ? Care to list Lara's relative standing in their batting lineup during this time ? Was he the worst batsman in their team ? Even if he was, i wouldnt want to follow the example of WI, who has been losing everything since 1999. Quoting examples, is not your strength, is it ?:haha:

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Guest BossBhai]

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[Lurker]

Eh? What selective amnesia? Those are consecutive tests of their worst slumps. SRT is coming out of his slump(hopefully). Nearly made 2 tons in England. Bottomline, put your money where your mouth is. I predict that he will average over 40 overall in the 7 tests against Pak and OZ. Do you think otherwise?

How did I miss this post Gambo? Seems like I replied to everyone save this. So let me get this straight. Even though you clearly are a hardcore Sachin fan and have been feverently defending him, even you could not muster courage to say Sachin will score at about 60 or so. What you came up with is 40! Even though one of the series is at home. Tells a story, doesnt it :D

[Mr. Wicket]

Feel free to read my whole post & answer all the qns i raised' date=' instead of clinging on to the ones you want to answer.why is it that every non-performer (that included Laxman, duh!) has been dropped while Sach is not ?[/quote'] Because Sachin's reputation over the past 17 years means people look at him as someone who will come good in due time, regardless of a form slump here or there. When you have that many runs/centuries/big innings over such a long period of time, your ability to produce runs in all conditions and situations are never in doubt.

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And the guys inbetween ... Are you really trying to say that a 118 runs diff should result in a nearly 10 point avg difference ? What sort of logic is that ? And out of those 4 Not outs by RD 2 of them came in totally meaningless circumstances ... (One against PAk in Faislabad where we batted for a grand sum of 8 overs chasing 476 because the umpires were not allowed to call close of play due to some stoopid rule while the match was all but dead more than a day ago .. the other was against Eng recently where he came in with less than 30 needed to win )

Boss, seriously you are clutching at straws! It all evens out over a period of 25 innings Tendulkar also had such opportunities to remain not out. But he blew them himself. Dont you remember the low scoring chase vs Eng, in which Tendu got out cheaply in the recent series ? Lets say for a minute these stats dont matter. What is it that you expect a player of the calibre of SRT or RD to do ? Win games for India, when it matters! Has SRT done that ? Dravid has done that in WI. Show me an innings SRT has played in this time which is in the same class as Dravid's ? And before the discussion branches off to SRT is the most technically correct etc, I want to remind everyone that SRT has managed to score runs only when others have also managed to. He has failed when everyone else have failed also. So that doesnt hold any water either!

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Because Sachin's reputation over the past 17 years means people look at him as someone who will come good in due time, regardless of a form slump here or there. When you have that many runs/centuries/big innings over such a long period of time, your ability to produce runs in all conditions and situations are never in doubt.

Fine with me. But how long should i wait for him to click ? Next two series, next two years or next two decades ? Quantify it! Tell me what is acceptable to you as his series avg in the next two series ?

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Mr. Wicket]

And before the discussion branches off to SRT is the most technically correct etc' date=' I want to remind everyone that [b']SRT has managed to score runs only when others have also managed to. He has failed when everyone else have failed also. So that doesnt hold any water either!

To negate the boldfaced bit... http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/249216.html - I1, he and VVS were the only two to really make any sort of contribution as the side crumbled http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64006.html - I2, he and VVS were responsible for saving the game after the deficit. With the exception of him and Laxman, no other player reached 30. http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63988.html - I2, the lone real act of defiance/grit while the rest went down tamely http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63951.html - 68/4 before lunch. Century from there alongside Sehwag. Two fine knocks from those two, capitulation from the rest. http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63962.html - I1 - He and Laxman make runs in response to a big score, everyone else sits in the dressing room and watches after failing. http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63870.html - I1 - he made the highest score. Agarkar made the second highest. you KNOW that has to be bad. http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63866.html - Wow, another solo ton in a nothing cause because nobody else had spine? I could go on, but it's too much work actually delving into his glory years and sifting through the knocks there...