Viv Richards vs. Dennis Lillee

[kabira]

>So how many test matches has Sachin Tendulkar won against Australia in Aus , or against SA in SA or against WI in WI or against Eng in Eng, where his batting alone completely wiped out the opposition from the game just a news for you...test matches are won by bowlers... Tendulkar scored 241* against Aus in Aus..He made 148* against Aus in Aus when he was not even 20.. He scored 100 in Bloomfontein...but our bowlers screwed up... There are many instances where he set up game in England..

[Chandan]

Silliest logic ?? how ? For someone to be considered the "world's greatest batsman".... not even getting a big matchwinning 100 against Aus in Aus' date=' against SA in SA and against Eng in Eng......not even ONCE in 400 + games is pretty sad[/quote'] So if you think he isn't greatest, please go and tell me who is the greatest then, and tell me how many times has he fulfilled your criteria?? I really am very curious here because you think the greatest players has to be greater than the team, and the rest of the 10 players don't have to score more than 40-45 % of runs because 55-60% will be scored by the so called greatest player! OPlease go and name the player, Sampath.

[Chandan]

>So how many test matches has Sachin Tendulkar won against Australia in Aus , or against SA in SA or against WI in WI or against Eng in Eng, where his batting alone completely wiped out the opposition from the game just a news for you...test matches are won by bowlers... Tendulkar scored 241* against Aus in Aus..He made 148* against Aus in Aus when he was not even 20.. He scored 100 in Bloomfontein...but our bowlers screwed up... There are many instances where he set up game in England..

I thought the same thing. You can argue, how many times Sachin has not won a test match even when bowlers took 20 wickets in a test in SA and Australia. Now please go and dig up the stats to show how many times Sachin has screwed the team even when the bowlers created a chance of victory and vice versa!

[Guest HariSampath]

>So how many test matches has Sachin Tendulkar won against Australia in Aus , or against SA in SA or against WI in WI or against Eng in Eng, where his batting alone completely wiped out the opposition from the game just a news for you...test matches are won by bowlers... Tendulkar scored 241* against Aus in Aus..He made 148* against Aus in Aus when he was not even 20.. He scored 100 in Bloomfontein...but our bowlers screwed up... There are many instances where he set up game in England..

Sure Sachin has played several brilliant innings, setting up test matches etc, but by far they are not in proportion to the total number of tests he has played. Sachin had failed in very crucial 3rd and 4th innings for India, far more than he had succeeded, and certainly too many times for someone called "greatest". No way he is greatest batsman. Even in ODIs, like I mentioned earlier, he had never ever scored a single 100 when chasing 280-290 + scores and won the match for India outside the subcontinent. I personally think a great ODI batsman must be able to play an innings in extremely hostile conditions and win a match off his own bat even when chasing tall scores. Like for instance Richards, Saeed Anwar , Miandad, Ponting, Lara Gilchrist type of innings, and if this type of innings is played often enough, then we can call a player "great"... sachin unfortunately has not even done it once in those type of situations even though he has played 400+ ODIs

[Guest HariSampath]

Test matches are won by bowlers, to a large extent, yes. But say what about a 3rd innings situation when the team is trailing by 100 runs in the 1st innigs, a batsman can get 200 and set the opposition a target of 300 in the 4th innings. Or chasing 300 in the last innings and tottering at 20-2, and Sachin getting 130 notout AND winning the game..... no he has not done this type of thing and the whole world knows it Something like laxman's innings of 281 after following on. Sachin has not played that kind of test innings for India to win

[Chandan]

Test matches are won by bowlers, to a large extent, yes. But say what about a 3rd innings situation when the team is trailing by 100 runs in the 1st innigs, a batsman can get 200 and set the opposition a target of 300 in the 4th innings. Or chasing 300 in the last innings and tottering at 20-2, and Sachin getting 130 notout AND winning the game..... no he has not done this type of thing and the whole world knows it Something like laxman's innings of 281 after following on. Sachin has not played that kind of test innings for India to win

Laxman's inning would have been futile had the Aussies not collapsed in the 4th inning. Same way who'd have thought that that remaining Indian batsmen wouldn't be able to make 16 runs after Sachin got out, or Sachin's inning of 241*would have been a great piece of history at 2004 in Sydney had our bowlers taken all the 10 Aussie wickets. That in no way was Sachin's failure, or was it in your opinion?

[Guest HariSampath]

In a test match, a master batsman can by his own batting not only do an enormous amount to win the game from being in danger of losing, he can even do a great deal to win a series itself. For example, when Steve Waugh's Aussies were touring Windies 1998-99, they won the first test. In the secong test match , on a hostile pitch at Sabina Park against McGrath and co...Australia had earlier scored 256, and Windies were 2 down for 5 runs when Lara arrived. Windies could have well lost the test and the series at that stage. They were 0-1 down and 5 for 2 wkts. Lara played a brilliant innings of 213 and helped a lead of 170 for Windies, and Windies won by 10 wkts. Series 1-1 Next test : another lightning quick pitch at Barbados. Aus ran up 490 in the 1st innings, and on the last day , Windies needing 311 to win , were reduced to 105-5....Lara at the wicket. Windies could have again lost the test and series easily, in such a bad position. But Lara, again played an innings of 153 notoout out of 311-9 and Windies won the test match to take the series lead 2-1. This is a case where a world class player made a huge difference between a series score reading 0-3 and leading 2-1, just by his brilliant batting against a top side and bowling attack on very hostile wickets

[Chandan]

I know about those tests. I just want to give you instances where our bowlers could take 20 wickets and Sachin failed to deliver in SA, and Australia. Mind you, Lara's great knock doesn't count as a great as per your criteria because it was scored in his backyard, ie, WI. He had to score it IN Australia or SA or England to be labeled as a great knock! So go ahead and tell us how many times has Sachin failed us after bowlers took the 20 wickets. Also you haven't answered my question as who according to you is the greatest batsman in ODI and how many times has he fulfilled your criteria.

[Guest HariSampath]

Take another instance. In the 1981 Ashes, England were 0-1 down in the series, and in the 3rd test match Aus got 401, and England at 87-5 was facing follow on when Botham scored 50 runs,. England following on with 227 to avoid an Innings defeat were 105-5 and a sure innings defeat and series loss faced them. Botham played one of the greatest all time best test innings of 149 not out and not only was Innings defeat avoided, but England actually set a 4th innings target of 130 and australia collapsed with England winning the match. Yes Willis took 8 wkts in the 4th innings, but Botham pulled them out of a totally disastrous inngs defeat situation against Lillee , Lawson and Alderman with a runa ball 149 notout with just the tail for company. Later in that series Botham scored another century and England won the Ashes 3-1...something impossible when they were facing 227 to avoid inngs defeat and go down 0-2 I mean this types of brilliant match turning performances against very top quality bowling in hostile conditions

[Guest HariSampath]

I know about those tests. I just want to give you instances where our bowlers could take 20 wickets and Sachin failed to deliver in SA, and Australia. Mind you, Lara's great knock doesn't count as a great as per your criteria because it was scored in his backyard, ie, WI. He had to score it IN Australia or SA or England to be labeled as a great knock! So go ahead and tell us how many times has Sachin failed us after bowlers took the 20 wickets. Also you haven't answered my question as who according to you is the greatest batsman in ODI and how many times has he fulfilled your criteria.

Doesn't matter if it was Lara's backyard or front yard LOl... the facts are Sabina park and Barbados are some of the most hostile wickets in the world, and he scored it there.... you mean to say if those knocks had been played on a flat track at Lord's you will call it world class just because it was out of windies .. lol

[Chandan]

Oh, and you consider the Chennai and Mumbai pitches docile ones? I didn't hear you praising the knocks by Sachin in '98 against Australia or in 04 against Australia? So how are they not great knocks? Can you enlighten please? And I didn't say anything. Only you have been laying down the criteria. My second question about greatest ODI batsman as per your criteria is still unanswered!

[Guest HariSampath]

Oh, and you consider the Chennai and Mumbai pitches docile ones? I didn't hear you praising the knocks by Sachin in '98 against Australia or in 04 against Australia?

Chennai and Mumbai have produced some very quick pitches, and it is not as if don't appreciate any of Sachin's innings, as I have seen all his innings here in Chennai. Sachin had played some very very fine test innings as well as ODIs inngs, but I don't accept that as criteria for being called a "great ODI batsman" because of my criterion, is basically a question of winning a ODI almost single handedly and outside of the subcontinent

[MundaPakistani]

Just wish there were bowlers like Lillie today. It's a shame that some one like Vaas is considered one of the best fast bowlers in today's criketing world.

[Chandan]

When we're talking about Chennai and Mumbai or Sabina Park or Barbados, we're talking about tests. So you consider only the quick wickets to be hostile and not the turning minefields?

but I don't accept that as criteria for being called a "great ODI batsman" because of my criterion, is basically a question of winning a ODI almost single handedly and outside of the subcontinent

Nor did I tell you accept it as one. I'm yet to hear about your greatest ODI batsman as per your criteria. PS: What is this outside subcontinent thing?? Why can't a great inning IN subcontinent be respected as great? So I have many questions for you, in which one question I've repeated about 4 times now. Please go ahead and answer me, Hari.

[MundaPakistani]

Umm.. dude..skill level goes up on both sides.Bowlers get better' date=' batsmen get better. Stuff like this cannot be represented by stats.[/quote'] Compare the bowlers of the mid 90s with the bowlers of 07 and you seriously think that today's bowlers are better?

[Guest HariSampath]

And I didn't say anything. Only you have been laying down the criteria. My second question about greatest ODI batsman as per your criteria is still unanswered!

To my mind, the best batsman in all forms of cricket, after the war is Vivian Richards

[Guest HariSampath]

Just wish there were bowlers like Lillie today. It's a shame that some one like Vaas is considered one of the best fast bowlers in today's criketing world.

Chaminda Vaas is a fantastic fast bowler and certainly one of the top bowlers in the world

[Guest HariSampath]

When we're talking about Chennai and Mumbai or Sabina Park or Barbados, we're talking about tests. So you consider only the quick wickets to be hostile and not the turning minefields? Nor did I tell you accept it as one. I'm yet to hear about your greatest ODI batsman as per your criteria. PS: What is this outside subcontinent thing?? Why can't a great inning IN subcontinent be respected as great? So I have many questions for you, in which one question I've repeated about 4 times now. Please go ahead and answer me, Hari.

Oh yes, if a very god innings is played on a hostile pitch, even in the subcontinent, its perfectly valid. And to answer the other point, even an inngs of quality against spinners on a turning track is valuable. If for instance, some batsman gets a 100 chasing just 230 on a turning track against top spinners in a crisis, that will be a great knock too

[MundaPakistani]

Chaminda Vaas is a fantastic fast bowler and certainly one of the top bowlers in the world

Good bowler but isn't even close to being called a 'great' bowler yet he is one of the best in today's cricketing world.

[Chandan]

quote=HariSampath;241908]Oh yes, if a very god innings is played on a hostile pitch, even in the subcontinent, its perfectly valid. And to answer the other point, even an inngs of quality against spinners on a turning track is valuable. If for instance, some batsman gets a 100 chasing just 230 on a turning track against top spinners in a crisis, that will be a great knock too