BBC Greatest ODI XI

[sweetaskandy]

MCCG, you are wasting your time. This is the ICF all time odi x1 sachin ganguly viv lara yuvraj dhoni (w, c) kapil dev akram warne srinath zaheer they think that is the best xi. best players - they will not accept expert opinion or even reason.

[Marut]

While I appreciate Gilly being a big match player, that by no means make him any better than Dhoni in that aspect either. He played one of the best knocks in a world cup final, that too when the pressure was at its peak, chasing. Further, Dhoni isn't just a slow/low specialist. He averages over 50 in NZ and Aus, and a respectable 37 in England. The only real place he struggled is in SA (25 avg). Dhoni has one of the best overall ODI records anyone can hope to get. Has scored runs in all positions, all roles, blaster to accumulator, free flowing batsman to pressure-soaker master pacer. I still don't understand what those idiots were smoking at BBC while selecting this XI

Dhoni's averages are not bad in Australia, but like Klusener's career averages his averages in Oz are mostly a result of a lot of low-medium scores with plenty of not outs that boost that average - just four fifties in 25 matches isn't much. In contrast he has 7 hundreds/20 fifties in India in 88 innings, which shows he is a specialist for subcontinent type wickets. Which is not surprising at all. Gilchrist would have to be better on pacy wickets because he has grown on those wickets from childhood - that does not mean Gilly is a better batsman overall. It will probably be years before anyone emulates Dhoni's records at #5 and #6 batting slots. Meanwhile, there will be dozens of batsmen who will go past Gilchrist's stature as opening batsmen. We already have plenty of batsmen who are as good as Gilly at the opening slot - Warner, Macca, Dilshan, Sehwag etc. But a #5,6 batsman averaging 50 is not to be found so easily in other teams. Dhoni is an ATG, Gilchrist is a good modern batsman. The difference is so huge that it does not even need a debate to settle this.

[MCGGG]

MCCG, you are wasting your time. This is the ICF all time odi x1 sachin ganguly viv lara yuvraj dhoni (w, c) kapil dev akram warne srinath zaheer they think that is the best xi. best players - they will not accept expert opinion or even reason.

Very true, they are like brick walls with lips.

[Marut]

MCCG, you are wasting your time. This is the ICF all time odi x1 sachin ganguly viv lara yuvraj dhoni (w, c) kapil dev akram warne srinath zaheer they think that is the best xi. best players - they will not accept expert opinion or even reason.

Say that this "your" ICF ODI XI. This would be mine. Sachin (Greatest ODI batsman) Gilchrist (Great modern opener) Viv Richards (Most destructive ODI batsman) AB devilliers (Best modern batsman) Dhoni (Greatest finisher) Bevan (Greatest finisher) Kapil Dev (Greatest ODI allrounder) Akram (Greatest ODI pace bowler) Saqlain (Greatest ODI spinner) McGrath (Grestest Modern ODI pacer) Garner (Most miserly and dangerous bowler) Close misses: Ponting Lara Donald Imran Warne Kohli Jayasuriya Sangakkara Murali Lee Klusener Waqar Kumble Razzaq Steyn Bond

[rtmohanlal]

No one said he wasn't good. There are simply better choices for the AR slot.

there may be better one day all rounders than Kapil in deeper analysis. but one thing for sure, none among the FAB4 of 80s was better than Kapil as an one day allrounder. Over all too, only Imran holds a chance against Kapil. Botham and Hadlee where convincingly inferior all rounders to Kapil. Even Imran's claim is in doubt now a days, because it has been getting more and more evident that he was a severe ball tamperer in his playing days, especially in the 2nd part of his career. I am sure his clean chit record has taken a severe beating among lots of cricket loving public.

[MCGGG]

there may be better one day all rounders than Kapil in deeper analysis. but one thing for sure, none among the FAB4 of 80s was better than Kapil as an one day allrounder. Over all too, only Imran holds a chance against Kapil. Botham and Hadlee where convincingly inferior all rounders to Kapil. Even Imran's claim is in doubt now a days, because it has been getting more and more evident that he was a severe ball tamperer in his playing days, especially in the 2nd part of his career. I am sure his clean chit record has taken a severe beating among lots of cricket loving public.

I reckon Akram was fond of a little ball fondling as well.

[rtmohanlal]

I reckon Akram was fond of a little ball fondling as well.

It seems quite a no: of bowlers during pre multi camera times were involved in ball tampering. But Kapil was the one bowler who confidently says that he had never indulged in this cheating behaviour. So he deserves more appreciation as a cricketer. Ex Indian cricketer Balwinder Sandhu when asked about this , conveyed that he would never put Imran above Kapil as an all rounder. This because he felt that Imran indulged in this malpractise a lot.

[Marut]

there may be better one day all rounders than Kapil in deeper analysis. but one thing for sure, none among the FAB4 of 80s was better than Kapil as an one day allrounder. Over all too, only Imran holds a chance against Kapil. Botham and Hadlee where convincingly inferior all rounders to Kapil. Even Imran's claim is in doubt now a days, because it has been getting more and more evident that he was a severe ball tamperer in his playing days, especially in the 2nd part of his career. I am sure his clean chit record has taken a severe beating among lots of cricket loving public.

With or without ball tampering, Imran does not equal Kapil as an ODI all rounder. I think I have already provided the proof that Kapil ranked above Imran in the ICC rankings for most of his career. Infact, Kapil's lowest points are equal to Imran's average ratings. Please check out these graphs. Anyone with half brain can see from the graph that Kapil dev stayed above 500 rating points for a significant part of his career (most of the 80s actually), while Imran never touched 500 points at any point in his career. Imran's highest ever rating was 480 while Kapil reached 632 - the highest attained by any ODI all rounder in history. As usual, I expect the regular trolls to ignore all the empirical evidence, and go around arguing in circles. Imran at his best struggled to match Kapil at his lowest, that is how they compared as all rounders in the 80s. Needless to say, Kapil was even superior to Botham and Hadlee.

[rtmohanlal]

With or without ball tampering, Imran does not equal Kapil as an ODI all rounder. I think I have already provided the proof that Kapil ranked above Imran in the ICC rankings for most of his career. Infact, Kapil's lowest points are equal to Imran's average ratings. Please check out these graphs. Anyone with half brain can see from the graph that Kapil dev stayed above 500 rating points for a significant part of his career (most of the 80s actually), while Imran never touched 500 points at any point in his career. Imran's highest ever rating was 480 while Kapil reached 632 - the highest attained by any ODI all rounder in history. As usual, I expect the regular trolls to ignore all the empirical evidence, and go around arguing in circles. Imran at his best struggled to match Kapil at his lowest, that is how they compared as all rounders in the 80s. Needless to say, Kapil was even superior to Botham and Hadlee.

yes...the graph too conveys that Kapil was the better one day all rounder.also we must not forget that this was the period, I mean from 82-85 , where Kapil played a prominent role in India winning 2 multinational tournaments ie 83 world cup & 85 WSC in AUS. Kapil owned 83 world cup in every sense, & in WSC it was his vital 54(37) runs while chasing in the semis that eventually resulted in winning that cup. but w.r.t the topic, I think you misunderstood what I said. By 'overall' I meant both tests & one dayers combined. there too I feel Kapil was on a par with Imran as an all rounder.Botham and Hadlee were clearly inferior. and if we add tampering issue into this, there is no doubt Kapil is the undisputed no: 1 all rounder among the FAB 4

[Marut]

yes...the graph too conveys that Kapil was the better one day all rounder.also we must not forget that this was the period, I mean from 82-85 , where Kapil played a prominent role in India winning 2 multinational tournaments ie 83 world cup & 85 WSC in AUS. Kapil owned 83 world cup in every sense, & in WSC it was his vital 54(37) runs while chasing in the semis that eventually resulted in winning that cup. but w.r.t the topic, I think you misunderstood what I said. By 'overall' I meant both tests & one dayers combined. there too I feel Kapil was on a par with Imran as an all rounder.Botham and Hadlee were clearly inferior. and if we add tampering issue into this, there is no doubt Kapil is the undisputed no: 1 all rounder among the FAB 4

Even with tampering, I would give the test all rounder to Imran. His bowling stats are too overwhelming to enable a solid case for Dev. IMO, tampering does not give more than a few percentage points of advantage. You need to be a very good bowler to take full advantage of tampering. Just tampering the ball and expecting to take a heap of wickets does not help, except on occasions. Every one knows Imran, Akram and Waqar tampered the ball - yet these bowlers are widely respected because the world knows they are great bowlers even with the accusations. Bowlers like Prabhakar have clearly tampered the ball in the past and he did not achieve much greatness, did he? Hadlee was only a borderline all rounder. He wasn't a proper batsman for most of his career. Botham does not match Kapil and Imran because he flopped against good teams and looked like a headless chicken against the WI side. Yeah, so the real competition is only between Imran and Kapil. Imran better in tests and Kapil in ODIs. Overall, I am not sure, I would give it to Imran because test cricket stands at a higher pedestal.

[rtmohanlal]

Even with tampering, I would give the test all rounder to Imran. His bowling stats are too overwhelming to enable a solid case for Dev. IMO, tampering does not give more than a few percentage points of advantage. You need to be a very good bowler to take full advantage of tampering. Just tampering the ball and expecting to take a heap of wickets does not help, except on occasions. Every one knows Imran, Akram and Waqar tampered the ball - yet these bowlers are widely respected because the world knows they are great bowlers even with the accusations. Bowlers like Prabhakar have clearly tampered the ball in the past and he did not achieve much greatness, did he? Hadlee was only a borderline all rounder. He wasn't a proper batsman for most of his career. Botham does not match Kapil and Imran because he flopped against good teams and looked like a headless chicken against the WI side. Yeah, so the real competition is only between Imran and Kapil. Imran better in tests and Kapil in ODIs. Overall, I am not sure, I would give it to Imran because test cricket stands at a higher pedestal.

see...w.r.t Imran-Kapil test comparison even if we neglect tampering factor, there is a measure to the gap between Imran & Kapil. but, how much is the question.i consider Kapil an 85-87% test bowler because of 3 factors 1. longevity - Kapil played 131 tests to Imran's 88 tests 2. bowling unit strength - Kapil belonged to a bowling unit where support bowlers avg:ed 37+ where as Imran's support cast avg:ed slightly less than 29.65(Kapil's bowl avg:) 3.work density -Kapil played 131 tests in just 16 years whereas Imran played 88 tests in long 21 years. now statistical data to confirm my points are as follows. 1.at the end of 88 tests Kapil had 311 wkts.(ie: about 86% of Imran's 362) 2.Kapil has 352 wkts from cherripicked 88 tests spread across series where he took most no: of wkts in a series.(hope you got the point) 3.at the end of 62 tests Kapil had 247 wkts(4 wkts/test). then came his knee surgery. he neglected rest and played straight away before his wound completely got healed. the result was a dramatic fall to 2.6 wkts/test in next 11 tests compared to his 4wkts/test ratio before injury. Now if we take all the above said data as a whole and assume that Kapil played just 88 tests with privilages Imran enjoyed in 'work density' & 'support bowling cast' factors I have no doubt that Kapil was an 85-87% bowler to Imran because, even with out these advantages in these 2 said factors Kapil could take 86% of wkts(311:362) as that if Imran. Hope you got my point. Now.. w.r.t test batting , I feel the gap between them is not that small as generally assumed.this is because of several factors of these 3 are very important for me. 1.Kapil's huge str: rate of 80.91 to Imran's 47.52 .at the end of 87 tests this stood at 84+ before Kapil's reflexes started to slow him down. 2.Kapil's bat avg: in WI(best team) was 28.75.For Imran it was only 21.5.Keep in mind this avg: stood at 42.5 with 2 +98 scores vs Marshall & co before his 89th test.This factor carries a lot of weightage for me.i mean performances vs the best in their own den. 3.Let us take 75 as their cut of point for huge scores unlike say 100 for normal order bats. Kapil's str: rate in such 15 scores is a mammoth 96.45 where as for Imran it is only 54+ in his 9 such scores.See... how Kapil's dominance on bowlers raises to another level once he crosses 75.Now, if we go thru these set of scores for both these 2, we can see that there is a considerable difference in quality on the avg: in favour of Kapil.This, if we take such factors as str: rate, match situation,opposition bowling unit strength,contribution of other batsmen etc etc. What I mean is, if the above said points were between 2 SPECIALIST batsmen, the batsman with the advantages in these 3 factors would have been considered a much superior batsman.But in Kapil-Imran case, these points are just ignored as just another factor.More over as we all know, Imran's avg: can never be taken as such because of his high percentage of not outs. So Imran was only at the most a 90% bat as Kapil. Now we give more weightage to 'who is better in their weaker discipline' because the criteria is 'best all rounder' , not best bowler. so things evens out even at test level. Now you add to it Kapil being the convincingly better one day allrounder(he was better in both batting and bowling),much better all round fielder and only slightly lesser captain , we can see things evens out or Kapil slightly in front. I say ImRAN was a slightly better captain only because of these points.Imran's much hyped up 3 test duels with WI were in a period when WI team was going thru a transition.Only Marshall was in the team with inexperienced Walsh,Ambrose,Bishop etc to support him .Bowling wise Pak team matched WI man for man with Wasim,Waqar,Qadir & Imran himself in their line up.some of WI GREAT batsmen were already retired or not playing in some of these matches.likes of Phil Simmons & Richie Richardson who were not of that caliber and 'inexperienced too' were in the team.And to add to all, Imran played as a batsman and as a support bowler, I mean not as a premier all rounder in these test series.But Credit to Imran for his 1-0 India series & 2-0 ENG victories. On the other hand Kapil led India to 83 world cup( where he was the champion all rounder ), has a 2-0 series victory in ENG,86 AUS drawn series(India had upper hand most of the time)& 2-0 lost WI series.Of these Kapil was the premier all rounder in both AUS & WI SERIES. All this ,he achieved with a very weak bowling unit at his disposal. So in 4 of 6 disciplined they were involved in , Kapil was better in 4 of them. Now add tampering issue into the mix, I don't see how Imran can be the better all rounder.

[thongale]

Dont generalize what you think about Kapil with everybody else.You will pick Imran because you are a Srilankan. You even wanted Afghanistan to win yesterday. Am I surprised you support Imran?

Kapil was awful with the bat in ATG sense. We have enough batsmen who could hammer quick 20 at a SR of 120. And KApil brings nothing to the balance of the side. My XI would be; Lara, Tendullkar, Richards, de Villiers, Hussey, Dhoni, Klusener, Pollock, Wasim, McGrath and Murali Pollock is a better ODI all rounder than Kapil any day, similar or bit inferior batting, but light years ahead with the ball. Klusener is inferior with ball, but light years ahead of Kapil with the bat.

[thongale]

So average of 22 in 1990 and average of 22 in 2015 are the same? Are you are a ten year old? Then no problem.

Yes they are. Averages have changed only a bit. MAy be 22 means 22.5, maximum 23. Not 25 for sure.

[thongale]

Anyone with half brain can see from the graph that Kapil dev stayed above 500 rating points for a significant part of his career (most of the 80s actually)' date=' while Imran never touched 500 points at any point in his career. Imran's highest ever rating was 480 while Kapil reached 632 - the highest attained by any ODI all rounder in history. As usual, I expect the regular trolls to ignore all the empirical evidence, and go around arguing in circles. Imran at his best struggled to match Kapil at his lowest, that is how they compared as all rounders in the 80s. Needless to say, Kapil was even superior to Botham and Hadlee.[/quote']What anyone with half a brain would understand is thaty Kapil is neither #7 nor #8 in an ATG side. Imran is a great great #8, because Kapil is way behind with the ball. Pollock has an even greater claim to be #8. Klusener is way ahead of Kapil with the bat, and unlike Kapil who could only slog it, had few gears where he can operate. Even Flintoff is a good shout as #7. Kapil was good for the Indian team, but he harm the balance of an ATG side.

[sweetaskandy]

re: imran and tampering - there is 1 instance in county cricket he detailed in his books. read them. all the rest is speculation against him. what was seen as tampering - reverse swing - was not. the pakistani guys were just a bit ahead of their times. the world has caught up. now the world does it and such talk has finished. i'm sorry but most experts regard numerous AR as superior to dev. but you guys are blind nationalists. from modern times klusener is far superior to him. as is kallis, flintoff and maybe a few others. they would all play different roles. someone like imran or kallis would bat in the top 6, botham and dev in the lower order/lower middle.

[thongale]

ODI bowlig ARs better than Kapil Dev Pollock Hadlee Imran Flintoff Wasim Batting all rounders better than Kapil Kallis Jayasuriya Klusener Cairns Mathews Watson Symonds Kapil, Botham, Razzaq, Shakib and Vettori will be ARs with neither bat nor the ball that will cut in to ATG XI.

[sweetaskandy]

ODI bowlig ARs better than Kapil Dev Pollock Hadlee Imran Flintoff Wasim Batting all rounders better than Kapil Kallis Jayasuriya Klusener Cairns Mathews Watson Symonds Kapil, Botham, Razzaq, Shakib and Vettori will be ARs with neither bat nor the ball that will cut in to ATG XI.

:two_thumbs_up: honest post. kapil was a 2nd tier AR on a world AT scale.

[sweetaskandy]

Honest question for Indians: Why does the bulk of expert opinion regard Imran and Botham (and Kallis now) as far better than Dev?

[sensible-indian]

ODI bowlig ARs better than Kapil Dev Pollock Hadlee Imran Flintoff Wasim Batting all rounders better than Kapil Kallis Jayasuriya Klusener Cairns Mathews Watson Symonds Kapil, Botham, Razzaq, Shakib and Vettori will be ARs with neither bat nor the ball that will cut in to ATG XI.

So how was Kapil ICC's No 1 ODI allrounder for nearly a decade? How? How? How?

[sweetaskandy]

He played in a poor team so had more ops to stand out. Answer my question.