Finally people are talking about it : IT killing Bangalore

[Guest dada_rocks]

http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20071217&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=1 Techies Are Blamed For

• Land-grabbing, zooming property and rental rates, the rising cost of living
• Creating traffic jams, pollution, encroachments
• Turning 'garden city' into 'garbage city', pensioner's paradise to 'suicide capital'
• Devaluing other professions
• Destroying intellectual and artistic culture
• Introducing a culture of conspicuous consumption in malls and bars

***

Techies Complain

• City's problems caused by poor urban planning and management
• Of increasingly becoming target of crime and assault
• Of being insulted routinely, cheated, and overcharged by the locals

***

"Bangalore, a city whose soul has been clinically removed in the name of corporate efficiency.... Everything about the host culture has been watered down, Westernised, or otherwise screwed up....

[Guest dada_rocks]

Even in the marriage market, parents prefer an IT groom than a government-employed boy for their daughter. "IT grooms are regarded as hotter than anybody else. I have a personal experience," says PR professional V. Anand. Adds Chiranjiv Singh, "Two friends who were looking for matches for their daughters told me they did not want IT grooms for different reasons. One talked of the unconventional morals of IT boys and others said highly-paid IT boys were often from family backgrounds that did not match their salary levels." ( I got to see this dictum first hand during marriage finalization of my sister-in-law, perfectly fine boys being rejected because they do not come from family befitting their status. We status-crazy Indians.) I once joked wonder why you guys chose me for your elder daughter my father is just a middle school head-master you know. :D But, he goes on to nuance the argument, "This snobbery is paradoxical. What is not desirable in a son-in-law is desirable in a son." :giggle:

[Lurker]

Techies Are Blamed For

• Land-grabbing, zooming property and rental rates, the rising cost of living
• Creating traffic jams, pollution, encroachments
• Turning 'garden city' into 'garbage city', pensioner's paradise to 'suicide capital'
• Devaluing other professions
• Destroying intellectual and artistic culture
• Introducing a culture of conspicuous consumption in malls and bars

Cant disagree with any of the points raised above, in fact have them raised them myself. Indeed cities like Bangalore(or Poona) that was engrained in Indian mentality as a city of trees/greenery with excellent weather year around with quality companies and a vibrant middle class(pub culture was very much present in 80s), not to mention the ideal place for retirees is not fast becoming a land of malls, cars and escalating prices. It would be a classic question that have techies done more than damage than good to India? Only time shall tell. xxx

[living]

"This snobbery is paradoxical. What is not desirable in a son-in-law is desirable in a son." :giggle:

so true ....

[Guest dada_rocks]

Lurker I have read accounts of similar resentment by local rural people when public sector cities were installed in various places. Although there is some truth to this latest round of resentments but I sense fair share of sour grapes in that commentary on parts of peopel llike CNR Rao. Why should these socalled elite group ( prof/doctor lawyers, public-sector workers) retirees be given an ideal place. Plots lined with trees apaprently that's what they are missing. I say move to rural India sir if u want that luxury may be that way rural india will stop being slur. .. If my father can retire in a small village-cum-town with hardly an infrastructure of any significance in place why can't these luminaries do the same. These guys are complaing becasue this time they are at the wrong end of rich and poor divide.. Have you noticed the mention of phrase " how they used to be king". Recently IT czars were shooed away by finance minstry complaining what has IT done in middle-east. This kind of talk makes me wonder, so it's responsibiliy of hardly a million head strong decade-old industry whose share is insiginficant in GDP to fix north-east. Same north-east which could not be changed by 50 years of socialism. I ask the same question what the heck these elite group professional have done for India, " Doctors for instance are not willing to do even one year internship in rural India but IT-wallahs must vacate their urban sanctuary for erection of tree-lined bungalows." I say it's free economy demand supply decides who earns what. For instance a plumber in UK earns more than a PhD working in research lab. Having said that there should be some sort of socialist curb in real-estate market... And doctor-saheb professor-saheb get out of that urban jungle, rural india is not hell you know. Oke now here is Mindtree COO's rejoinder http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20071217&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=3

[Lurker]

Why should these socalled elite group ( prof/doctor lawyers, public-sector workers) retirees be given an ideal place. Plots lined with trees apaprently that's what they are missing. I say move to rural India sir if u want that luxury may be that way rural india will stop being slur. .. If my father can retire in a small village-cum-town with hardly an infrastructure of any significance in place why can't these luminaries do the same.

Actually they do DR. I will tell from my own personal experience that a lot of my relatives who were Hi-Fi in Indian Administrative Services, Professors, Economist etc. retired to Hazaribagh. Hazaribagh was the ideal place for retirees with its lovely weather, mountains and National Park. My Mama was the Chief Conservator of forest of Bihar and I have spent many a summers in Hazaribagh (Hazarbiagh has a great National Park). There is a area there(atleast was there back then) where I have counted half a dozen PadamShri & PahamBushans. My point being it is NOT only Bangalore but cities like Hazaribagh, Nainital, Almora..more hill stations area with good weather and living lifestyle. Bangalore and Poona are similar though they obviously are much bigger towns. The issue with Bangalore is now seen in Jamshedpur too. People who have worked all their life in TISCO/TELCO are now unable to build their own houses thanks to property boom. Dhondy should be able to tell us in detail about it.

These guys are complaing becasue this time they are at the wrong end of rich and poor divide.. Have you noticed the mention of phrase " how they used to be king".

That is not unexpected really. I mean anyone who has been at top laments. Indian hockey fans lament that we were once the worlds best, but that doesnt mean we dislike Australian hockey team now does it? Point being the lament is just one piece of the whole jig-saw puzzle here.

Recently IT czars were shooed away by finance minstry complaining what has IT done in middle-east. This kind of talk makes me wonder, so it's responsibiliy of hardly a million head strong decade-old industry whose share is insiginficant in GDP to fix north-east. Same north-east which could not be changed by 50 years of socialism.

Actually DR this is very correct. The most telling part of the whole OUTLOOK article is this - Murthy and Nilekani are considered ordinary businessmen. That is the essence of it. Go to Jamshedpur and you will see how TATAs are revered. This is not because TATAs were elitist but because they have actually done a lot for its workforce. On the other hand whenever Narayan Murthy gets rebuked(by Deve Gowda or whoever) noone gives a damn. THis when Infy has much more market value than TATA ever did. Point being all these modern industrialists are beefing up their own bankbalance and doing little for their country. It is almost like people have no duties at all. And if that being the case how can you argue that the Doctors should go to villages?

And doctor-saheb professor-saheb get out of that urban jungle, rural india is not hell you know.

Hell? Rural India is still very clean as compared to urban India. If tomorrow rural India just stops working what are Indians gonna survive on? C++ codes? Increasingly it seems the priorities are getting messed up in modern India. xxx

[head coach]

Go to Jamshedpur and you will see how TATAs are revered. This is not because TATAs were elitist but because they have actually done a lot for its workforce. On the other hand whenever Narayan Murthy gets rebuked(by Deve Gowda or whoever) noone gives a damn. THis when Infy has much more market value than TATA ever did. Point being all these modern industrialists are beefing up their own bankbalance and doing little for their country./quote] Lurker, one of the reasons is IT Industry depends on workforce with science/ technology/engineering background whereas other industries employ people with diverse skill-sets and get to the lower end of the pyramid. Thefore the sentimental value that you are talking about will be higher towards TATAs and Ambanis than Murthy or Premji.

[Lurker]

Lurker, one of the reasons is IT Industry depends on workforce with science/ technology/engineering background whereas other industries employ people with diverse skill-sets and get to the lower end of the pyramid. Thefore the sentimental value that you are talking about will be higher towards TATAs and Ambanis than Murthy or Premji.

Even in that workforce there is no sentimental value towards Murthy or Premji. Most IT people, if not all, will go where the mullah is. There is little attachment to what Infosys or Wipro stands for. Heck most IT people these days choose to work in small companies and not say INFY because they pay more. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

Tata's reach is much much bigger at the end of the day IT is insignificant to the overall GDP. Give these guys time TATA didn't do it over-night people had similar resentments with TATA plants coming up on their agricultural lands too.. Reverance of TATA is inside the campus I am sure if u go outside u will find enough who don't feel part of it. Ram Vilas Paaswan laid foundation stone of a steel plant near Chanpatia in bettiha district, already people are acting like sore thumbs in the region. This always happens whenever the existing order is challenged. BTW you can easily get a 15-20 lakh 3 Bedroom apartment in Ranchi even today.It's no large sum in India for salaried professional. My father recently retired and his end of service pay-out was 13 lakh not bad for a middle-school teacher. I am sure TATA employees get much more than this. It's not that they can't afford, they can, what is killing people is the fact that a young guy at 30 years of age can afford exactly same what it took them whole life..... A professor gets at least 30 lakh at the time of retirement + 20000 Rs per month pension and if someone tells u that's not enough send them to me I will give them tree-lined bungalow in that amount and still there will be some money to spare...

[Guest dada_rocks]

Hell? Rural India is still very clean as compared to urban India. If tomorrow rural India just stops working what are Indians gonna survive on? C++ codes? Increasingly it seems the priorities are getting messed up in modern India. xxx

I will share an anecdote from my personal life: Guy who used to work in our farm was given an acre of land for agircultural free-of cost in addition to his usual labour cost. One year we saw one after another four floods and poor guys sowed paddy four times. After first flood he had to buy saplings. I asked him how much did it cost him over all and how much he is going to make out of it at the end. Despite very liberal calculations at the end I figures it was break even. SO Iasked him why he even bothers with going through this just buy foodgrains from market. That poor guy's honest answer was, "Sab aise hi karega to paisa thore na khayega log." I owe to people like these not elite working professionals who crib about not affording tree-lined bungalows in down-towns. I still say there is enough space for these folks in rural India move there it will not only give u clean living but will also bring some business to poor folks living nearby.

[Lurker]

Give these guys time TATA didn't do it over-night people had similar resentments with TATA plants coming up on their agricultural lands too.. Reverance of TATA is inside the campus I am sure if u go outside u will find enough who don't feel part of it.

Not really. The difference TATA and INFY is simply this - the former takes care of its workforce the latter doesnt. Period. Look at it this way. A young college graduate takes up a job with INFY Bangalore. His colleague takes up job at TELCO Jamshedpur. Two students from same college working for different Management now. The day the TELCO chap lands in Jamshedpur he will have a good clean room at what is called Engineers Hostel. If he is married he gets a two room flat in a nice TELCO community area. He can take the bus or if the need be he can get a loan for motorbike etc., free medical for all dependents, club facilities etc. His friend lands in Bangalore. There is no flat for him. Most likely he will end up with 3-4 batchmates crammed up in a flat some place. If he calls up INFY most likely he is gonna be told - We are paying you an amount better than 99.99% of Indians and thats all you get from us. If he is lucky an INFY bus goes via his route, if not he gets a bike and to that he would need to get a loan which most likely wont come from INFY. For the records I am quoting from my memory of 4-5 years back, abhi kya situation I dont know. What I do know, from my own personal experience is this: 1) A TELCO grad's lifestyle was much better than a IT guy. 2) A TELCO grad was well looked after than an IT guy. The key difference? While a TELCO grad made 20,000 per month an INFY grad made 25,000...plus a chance of going abroad. If you look in detail this is the crux. Indians have made more money but hasnt our lifestyle taken a big hit? xxxx

[Lurker]

That poor guy's honest answer was, "Sab aise hi karega to paisa thore na khayega log."

Great to hear that. And even though you are not that guy I am pretty sure the experience would leave a mark on you. It is amazing the sheer philosphy village has taught me, or you for that matter, folks who have been lucky enough to spend time in village. I say we write an article of sorts about it, in Hindi preferably. Majaa aa jaayega parh ke

[Guest dada_rocks]

Not really. The difference TATA and INFY is simply this - the former takes care of its workforce the latter doesnt. Period. Look at it this way. A young college graduate takes up a job with INFY Bangalore. His colleague takes up job at TELCO Jamshedpur. Two students from same college working for different Management now. The day the TELCO chap lands in Jamshedpur he will have a good clean room at what is called Engineers Hostel. If he is married he gets a two room flat in a nice TELCO community area. He can take the bus or if the need be he can get a loan for motorbike etc., free medical for all dependents, club facilities etc. His friend lands in Bangalore. There is no flat for him. Most likely he will end up with 3-4 batchmates crammed up in a flat some place. If he calls up INFY most likely he is gonna be told - We are paying you an amount better than 99.99% of Indians and thats all you get from us. If he is lucky an INFY bus goes via his route, if not he gets a bike and to that he would need to get a loan which most likely wont come from INFY. For the records I am quoting from my memory of 4-5 years back, abhi kya situation I dont know. What I do know, from my own personal experience is this: 1) A TELCO grad's lifestyle was much better than a IT guy. 2) A TELCO grad was well looked after than an IT guy. The key difference? While a TELCO grad made 20,000 per month an INFY grad made 25,000...plus a chance of going abroad. If you look in detail this is the crux. Indians have made more money but hasnt our lifestyle taken a big hit? xxxx

U have noticed resentlent is not coming from Infy employees on their behalf rest seem to be resenting. Bottomline is people are very imatient they want the oestablishment of organization like TATA whihc came to fruition in century. IT is young child of indian economy give it time to sort things out I have no doubt in my mind pretty soon even this setor will see stability like others no job-hopping no crazy pay-hike, 9-5 working hours. BTW TELCO/IOC/ONGC even today is dream job.. I have seen bungalow of my relative an engineer, in IOC Barauni heck even DM's bungalow pales in comparison..

[Lurker]

U have noticed resentlent is not coming from Infy employees on their behalf rest seem to be resenting. Bottomline is people are very imatient they want the oestablishment of organization like TATA whihc came to fruition in century. IT is young child of indian economy give it time to sort things out I have no doubt in my mind pretty soon even this setor will see stability like others no job-hopping no crazy pay-hike, 9-5 working hours.

Actually thats what I argued in my first post DR. TATAs are respected by pretty much most people while INFY is not respected by even those that work there. TATAs is just an example of course, you can very easily add say ONGC in the list. The point being people who work at TATA as well as people who dont work at TATA respect them. To use the example in the article a Father would have no problem if his daughter gets married to a ONGC chap, or if his son works at ONGC. On the other hand none of that is the case with say INFY. This is not to say Murthy is a villain or that IT folks are greedy son of a so and so but clearly there is something here that is not right, no? xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

Complaint of Infy employee has less to do with how Infy treats them more to do with how others are getting more. I too have worked in thsi industry come on what more people want u can have great food at work great entertainment facilities flexible work hours.. If people are still complaining then I guess they need to get their pririties right.. IT companies are yet to see influx of next generation ITians so let us wait till that happens. IT companies employee resent because there is potential of too much growth there and when somoene misses that bus he feels less about himself/herself. OTOH public sectors are more like govt sectors where there is a fixed path for upward mobility and everyone is in same boat. It may be good thing or bad thing depending on how u look at it. As I said give these folks time every industry is like that in the beginning..

[Guest dada_rocks]

Great to hear that. And even though you are not that guy I am pretty sure the experience would leave a mark on you. It is amazing the sheer philosphy village has taught me, or you for that matter, folks who have been lucky enough to spend time in village. I say we write an article of sorts about it, in Hindi preferably. Majaa aa jaayega parh ke

He scarred me for life, a headstrong engg graduate was grounded like MIG-29.. There I was a presumably educated person being taught greatest lesson of life by an illiterate labourer. Hindi Lekh oke I will keep that in mind.. sounds interesting

[fineleg]

I will share an anecdote from my personal life: Guy who used to work in our farm was given an acre of land for agircultural free-of cost in addition to his usual labour cost. One year we saw one after another four floods and poor guys sowed paddy four times. After first flood he had to buy saplings. I asked him how much did it cost him over all and how much he is going to make out of it at the end. Despite very liberal calculations at the end I figures it was break even. SO Iasked him why he even bothers with going through this just buy foodgrains from market. That poor guy's honest answer was, "Sab aise hi karega to paisa thore na khayega log." I owe to people like these not elite working professionals who crib about not affording tree-lined bungalows in down-towns. I still say there is enough space for these folks in rural India move there it will not only give u clean living but will also bring some business to poor folks living nearby.

You are amazing DR. You talk and talk and talk and talk about a whole host of issues regarding rural problems and how rural people slog it out etc. But, yet you yourself are not living in an Indian village and doing anything about it?:omg_smile: I dont think Lurker lives in one either... You can always skirt the issue by saying "I dont have to live there to contribute" - but...whatever...the hypocrisy comes through.

[Guest dada_rocks]

You are amazing DR. You talk and talk and talk about a whole host of issues regarding rural problems and how rural people slog it out etc. But, yet you yourself are not living in an Indian village and doing anything about it?:omg_smile:

How did u come to that conclusion, unless u are insinuating without living there no good can come out of anyone's effort.

[kumble_rocks]

You are amazing DR. You talk and talk and talk and talk about a whole host of issues regarding rural problems and how rural people slog it out etc. But, yet you yourself are not living in an Indian village and doing anything about it?:omg_smile: I dont think Lurker lives in one either... You can always skirt the issue by saying "I dont have to live there to contribute" - but...whatever...the hypocrisy comes through.

Isn't it obvious that DR is a hypocrite !

[fineleg]

How did u come to that conclusion' date=' unless u are insinuating without living there no good can come out of anyone's effort.[/quote'] I am not saying you can do nothing from outside...you can do a little, but reading your many posts clearly indicate that *you* believe the best contribution can come from living in one. Whether you actually do something from outside or not, I dont know and it is irrelevant to this specific point.