Invasion 550 Posted May 17, 2015 Author Posted May 17, 2015 @Invasion glad to have this discussion, apologies for my below post, quite detailed(and long :winky:) and hopefully easy to understand in case you are interested. The caste system in Hinduism is as old as the religion itself. Many right wing lunatics/RSS/BJP have the view that invaders(Muslims and then Christians) brought it upon us and they are responsible for caste divisions in India. Nothing is farther from the truth, caste system is a part and parcel of Hinduism(not entirely bad in concept but misused over the millenia) and many just don't want to accept it as such, they get very defensive when you raise this issue and don't want to discuss faults in their religion. Of course invaders used these divisions to their advantage and this helped them subjugate the massive Hindu population politically but caste divisions were a reality since ancient times.It is similar to 'jihad'-I don't know but I don't think it is mentioned in Koran to simply instigate violence against non believers, it has been misinterpreted and misused by bad people over the years to justify their acts of intolerance and violent actions. No real Prophet will ask his/her followers to take the path of mindless violence. Whatever is written in the holy Koran must be studied/analyzed w.r.t the prevailing situation/political climate/environment in the 6th century at the time the message was revealed. May be it was the need of the times to safeguard the religion/ideology from enemies(Correct me if I am wrong,you must know better). Even in Hinduism acts of violence by Gods/Goddesses are common, Lord Krishna gave the sermon(Bhagvad Gita) to Arjun to fight/kill/defeat the opponent Kauravas(in which Arjun's brothers,uncles,extended family) fought. Wars between Devas(supernatural beings) and Asuras(demons) with involvement of Gods/Goddesses is very common in our holy scriptures. But the message was always of good triumphing over evil and violence was justified. Similarly the caste system must be looked at w.r.t the time when it was revealed(Ancient times, around 1750 BC). In the ancient Rig Vedic period the people were divided into 4 main classes/'varnas'(in order of ranking with 1 being highest rank): 1. Brahmins('Knowledge'; Priests,Teachers,Liason between man and Gods) 2. Kshatriyas('Valor, knowledge of weapons, governance'; Royals,Nobles,Military) 3. Vaishyas(Agriculture and Cattle Rearing,Traders) 4. Shudras(Serve the other 3 castes) During that time the system of division was fair and flexible. Intelligent people were Brahmins; brave/fighters were Kshatriyas; skilful artisans/traders/cattle rearers/farmers were Vaishyas and those who didn't have any of the above talents were Shudras, eg laborers. Ancient Hindu texts suggest that the caste system was not rigid. There are examples of men born to families belonging to Vaishya/Shudra caste performing tapasya(nun like celibate lifestyle) and becoming maharishis(sages,Brahmin caste). This flexibility permitted the dacoit Valmiki who was a Shudra by birth to become a Maharshi and compose the Ramayana, which was widely adopted and became a major Hindu scripture. The Mahabharata declares that birth ancestry, sacraments or study alone cannot decide whether a person is a Brahmin; only character and behaviour can do so. Some Brahmans were also warriors. Krishna Dwaipayana Vyasa, son of a Brahmin sage Parashara and a fisher woman Satyavathi, in his Mahabharata, describes several warriors belonging to Brahmin caste, such as Dronacharya, Ashwatthama, Kripacharya, Parashuram etc. Other ancient texts cite numerous examples of individuals moving from one caste to another within their lifetimes. So as you see it wasn't unreasonable and corrupt in it's initial stages. The varna(caste) system became rigid in the later Vedic period(around 500 BC). The main reason was that the people then started feeling that 'the son of a teacher will genetically be intelligent','son of a warrior will also be a braveheart' and so on and so forth. Of course genetics wasn't the hot topic of discussion those days but people believed that traits of parents are passed over to children. Also the children who spent their childhood with the parents were more likely to pick up the father's occupation/get trained by the father. Only Shudras were disadvantaged then because no Shudra wanted to follow his father as a labourer/servant/cremator of the dead but then, no choice. By then the other castes started looking down upon these people because according to them they were filthy/polluted/disgusting and hence they became social outcasts. So started the social evil that cast away one of the varnas to doom. Kshatriyas were kings, nobles,warriors etc,so they were always in a position of power and wealthy. But some of the Kshatriyas who didn't have the appetite for violence became traders, went to agriculture etc. Brahmins were the priests, teachers/advisors for kings and continued to be among the top of the chain. Kshatriyas and Brahmins always worked in tandem in keeping control of the province. Vaishyas branched out into many forms and were the backbone of the economy. By now the caste system was almost completely hereditary and remained so for the next 2000-2200 years. In this time period all castes had hundreds of sub castes, the entire branching out became more and more complicated and mistrust between various varnas/sub castes/ sub sub castes.... increased to a historic high point. This was an impediment in the unity of the provinces who easily fell prey to Muslim invaders. To illustrate the magnitude of subdivision let me show you a few of the prominent sub castes/ sub sub castes of the Brahmin varna: Brahmins Pancha Gauda Brahmin..(north of the Vindhya mountains) White portion:North of the Vindhyas. The Vindhyas are considered as the traditional boundary between North and South India. Saraswat Brahmins Saraswat Brahmin Kashmiri Pandits Goud Saraswat Brahmin Chitrapur Saraswat Brahmin Rajapur Saraswat Brahmin Kudaldeshkar Gaud Brahman Kashyap Daivajna brahmin Kanyakubja Brahmins Gaur Brahmin Sanadya Brahmin Kamrupi Brahmins Kanyakubja Brahmin Saryupareen Brahmin Sakaldwipiya Brahmins Pareek Brahmins Saraswat Brahmin Pushkarna Brahmin Gauda Brahmins The Brahmins from historical region of Gauḍa(modern day Bengal and Bangladesh) are known as Gauda Brahmins. Pancha-Dravida Brahmin(South of the Vindhyas) Pancha-Dravida Brahmins are found in present day states of: Andhra Pradesh and Telangana- The Telugu Brahmins of Andhra Pradesh and Telangana are broadly classified into four groups: Vaidiki Brahmins, Niyogi, Dravida Brahmins, and Vaikhānasa. Niyogis are further divided into the following subcategories: Nandavarika Niyogi, Prathama Shakha Niyogi, Aaru Vela Niyogulu, Karanaalu, Sistukaranalu, Karana kamma vyaparlu, Karanakammulu. Dravida (Tamil Nadu and Kerala)- Iyengar (Tamil Nadu, sub-divided into Vadakalai and Thenkalai) Iyer (Tamil Nadu, sub-divided further into Vadama, Vathima, Brahacharanam, Ashtasahasram, Sholiyar, Dikshitar, Kaniyalar, Prathamasaki) Nambudiri(Kerala) Pushpaka Brahmins(Kerala) Gujarat- Gujarati Brahmins consist of various sub-castes such as : Aboti Brahmins Modh Brahmins Nagar Brahmins Audichya Brahmin Bardai Brahmins Anavil Brahmin Nodera Brahmin Khedaval Brahmins Karnataka Hoysala Karnataka Brahmins Smartha Brahmins Halenadu Karnataka Brahmin Madhwa Brahmins Mysore Iyengars Kota Brahmins Tuluva Brahmins, which consist of Kandavara Brahmins, Karhade Brahmins, Padia Brahmins, Saklapuri Brahmins, Shivalli Brahmins, Smartha Shivalli Brahmins, Sthanika Brahmins, Padarthi Brahmins. Havyaka Brahmin Gowda Saraswat Brahmins Maharashtra Chitpavan Konkanastha Brahmin, Deshastha Brahmin and Karhade Brahmin There are other sects, what I have named above hardly comprises 50% of the Brahmin divisions. There are Brahmins based in Nepal,Burma,Thailand,Indonesia,Sri lanka, other South Indian domains. Similarly other castes have also branched out like crazy. can't write each one of them because then my post will be 10 pages long :haha:. So you see how divided our Hindu society was in the medieval period, those who blame Muslims/Christians for dividing our religion must look into themselves. I am a right wing Hindu who is a supporter of BJP/RSS. Take it from my mouth, Muslims have zero role in dividing our religion any further. Any body who blames Muslims(and there quite a few in this country) is simply a hater/conspiracy theorist with no rational claims/historical knowledge. Muslim invaders were mighty and powerful but they didn't have the tactical nous/foresight of the British who brought in the system of 'divide and rule' in modern day India. They divided Hindus and Muslims, one caste from another and ruled us idiots efficiently for 200 years with very few British personnel camped here.The caste system became legally rigid during the Raj,when the British started to enumerate castes during the ten-year census(1901-1911) and meticulously codified the system under their rule. In the round table conference held on August 1932, upon the request of Ambedkar, the then Prime Minister of Britain, Ramsay Macdonald made a Communal Award which awarded a provision for separate representation for the Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Anglo-Indians, Europeans and Dalits(origin from Shudras, they are the lowest sub caste among Shudras, also called as untouchables/Schedule Castes in present times). These depressed classes were assigned a number of seats to be filled by election from special constituencies in which voters belonging to the depressed classes only could vote. Gandhi went on a hunger strike against this provision claiming that such an arrangement would split the Hindu community into two groups. Years later, Ambedkar wrote that Gandhi's fast was a form of coercion.This agreement, which saw Gandhi end his fast and Ambedkar drop his demand for a separate electorate, was called the Poona Pact. Beyond this I have no knowledge of Britishers poking their noses in Hindu caste affairs. Modern times The Indian government officially recognizes historically discriminated communities of India such as the Untouchables under the designation of Scheduled Castes, and certain economically backward Shudra castes as Other Backward Castes.The Scheduled Castes are sometimes referred to as Dalits in contemporary literature. In 2001, the proportion of Dalit population was 16.2 percent of India's total population.According to the 2001 census it is estimated that Hindu Forward caste comprises 26%, Other Backward Class comprises 43%, Hindu Scheduled Castes (Dalits) comprises 22% and Hindu Scheduled Tribes comprises 9%. Article 15 of the Constitution of India prohibits discrimination based on caste and Article 17 declared the practice of untouchability to be illegal. In 1955, India enacted the Untouchability (Offences) Act (renamed in 1976, as the Protection of Civil Rights Act). It extended the reach of law, from intent to mandatory enforcement. The Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act was passed in India in 1989. So today legally the lower castes have the full backing of the state. We have had Dalit Presidents,Chief Ministers,Chief Justices,Speakers,MPs,MLAs,entrepreneurs etc. Most government jobs/educational institutes have a very high % of seats reserved for OBCs,SC/STs. In fact the reservation in educational seats is so much that the forward castes are fed up of them. Very difficult for forward castes to get seats in IITs,IIMs,IISc etc because of very little seats and heavy competition. The lower castes have ridiculously low cut offs and dunces get into these prestigious institutes lowering the standards. In some states Brahmins(who ironically are the biggest minority in terms of % population @ <2%) have almost 0 representation in government offices and opportunities are quite limited. So most of the forward caste students especially Brahmins are forced to go overseas seeking better growth opportunities. One of the biggest reasons for brain drain in this country. In spite of all that distrust between castes continues to be a headache. After these reservations the hatred and jealousy is growing among forward caste youth who feel like their lives are being unfairly ripped apart thanks to what their ancestors did a few hundred years ago. But the acts of violence as you see in every day news is mainly between Kshatriyas/OBCs and Dalits. Till 2006 Dalits had the lion's share of reservation. After that OBCs have got even more reserved seats(mind you many OBCs are well to do, collectively richer than Brahmins in many states). So there is a lot of tension between these 2 groups, OBCs want to cut off Dalits from enjoying the benefits and new forward caste groups are rushing ahead to be declared OBC to gain reservation benefits.:giggle: Tamasha all round. These OBCs/Kshatriyas are also quite hot headed/violent/not averse to violence and frequent blood spilling of Dalits occurs on a daily basis everywhere. Brahmins are peaceful folk, very restrained and kind of cowards. Brahmins also have very good relations with Dalits. Mayawati the famous Dalit leader from uttar Pradesh banks on the Brahmin-Dalit votebank ,times have changed . But still inter caste marriages are a no no. In India Christians,Muslims,Sikhs,Buddhists,Jains all follow caste system in one form or the other. The caste distinction is based on their caste at the time that they or their ancestors converted. The strict caste system of Hinduism caused many Hindus of lower classes over the years to seek conversion to Christianity/Islam/others to escape the caste system Meanwhile few upper caste Hindus converted to Islam/Christianity and became part of the governing group of Sultanates/Mughal Empire or higher posts in the British Raj. Moreover many minority people declare themselves as SC/STs/OBCs just to avail reservation benefits(rampant among Christians in Andhra Pradesh). Regarding your question on number Hindu gods I will answer in another post, this post already is too long. Meanwhile I have a few questions of my own. Does the holy Koran/other holy Islamic scriptures mention anything about a system equivalent to the caste system? I have heard of bonded slaves in medieval Islam, doesn't that indicate some sort of caste grouping at some level? As you said about the situation in Pakistan no surprise really. we South Asians have no concept of dignity of labor. We look down upon sweepers,cleaners,laborers,etc and will never have matrimonial alliances with those people. Classless society is a Utopian dream, never will be a reality. I am convinced that in all 3rd world countries we have some sort of social divisions, this isn't entirely only India's problem, of course it's mention in Rig Veda/other scriptures makes it slightly tricky in our case. But as long as there is man there will be oppressors and oppressed. Dude, have you ever thought about writing for a newspaper or something? You are brilliant. I read this post last night and because i am having my exams so couldnt reply at that time. I will re-read your post and reply to that then. However, i will answer your questions now. No, as far as my knowledge of Holy Quran goes all sort of caste system or any monarchy (YES MONARCHY is not allowed by islam et all, surprised? :p) is not allowed by islam. The saudi government has adopted the extremist wahhabi sect that is the one who believes in monarchy. That sect is the same one behind ISIS and Talibans etc. Holy Quran says that a human is only better than the other by their virtue of being a momin (true pious believer) and no wealth or no creed can make you better in the eyes of Almighty, Allah. Regarding slaves. Yes, that is allowed by the Quran but under strict exceptional conditions. I dont have much knowledge in this subject but the time in which Quran was revealed slavery was allowed by culture. One of the five pillars of Islam, zakat, is meant to encourage Muslims to donate money to free slaves and bonded laborers in countries where slaves and bonded laborers may exist, in the hope that over time there will be no slaves left in that country. Quran even doesnt uses the word slave much but uses the one you own by your right hand. The Holy Quran even goes on to say that ones who free slaves are companions of Prophet and encourages people to set slaves free. :) It is mentioned in Surah Balad (90:13). http://quran.com/90/13-20 The Quran basically accepted the concept of slavery as it was very prevalent at that time but encouraged muslim to do otherwise. I think class difference, racial differences are something that we have adopted from our forefathers. They are traits that are more prevelant in frustrated societies like the subcontinental ones rather than European ones or the north american ones. Because we desis are born and bred with the belief of always have to be better than the other in whatever way possible. We are people with a lot of insecurities and inferiority complexes.
Invasion 550 Posted May 17, 2015 Author Posted May 17, 2015 Oh my god, Gollum is like a GOAT on icf and we all are like some midgets. Legend. Whattay top poster man. I am a fan.
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