Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

What do u think of George Lohmann SS ? Played 18 tests at an avg of 10. Does he belong in your list ?

Lohmann is a great choice, and here is why: Even though he has only 18 test matches (not his fault, test weren't played that often, and you had to go in a boat ride that took weeks), he was rated by his contemporaries as the toughest they've ever faced. He moved the ball both ways and took wickets at an amazing strike rate. What is also more important, is that he had 290+ FC matches at a phenomenal average of 13.73! Could he survive on today's pitches and game? I am not sure if he can, but then you also have to ask if today's batsmen can survive (without helmets) on uncovered pitches and sticky wickets!

[yoda]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Average is not that important to me in tests. Wickets/innings is. Can we rank all these players by wickets/innings?

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Lohmann is a great choice, and here is why: Even though he has only 18 test matches (not his fault, test weren't played that often, and you had to go in a boat ride that took weeks), he was rated by his contemporaries as the toughest they've ever faced.

So u dont discredit a bowler: a) For not playing enuff cricket ? b) For bowling in the pre 1914 era on uncovered pitches & ones that offered extravagant seam movement. c) For bowling in an era which has hardly produced prolific batsmen ? He WAS great alright, but how can u extrapolate his greatness any beyond ?

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Average is not that important to me in tests. Wickets/innings is. Can we rank all these players by wickets/innings?

Wickets/innings is a tough marker of success because guys like Hadlee and Murali will win out, but that is because of the amount of overs they bowled compared to others. Marshall was part of a quartet so he didn't need to bowl any more. If Hadlee was from WI, he would have many less wickets, but he wouldn't be any lesser bowler.

[King]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

I'm surprised Anil Kumble is not choosen either. The 4th highest wicket taker in the history of cricket and doesn't get a mention.

i am not surprised..... y would u pay so much attention to this guy's list, if u havent already figured who he is....

Fair call, the list is just a scam. Listing guys under 200 wickets but not the ones that have nearly 550.

The thing about Kumble is that he is the rock of Indian cricket - at home. Though he has improved considerably in this regard, he still averages 35+ in away matches, which is unacceptable for a top-25 bowler.

For someone like you that lists players from two centuries ago I would have thought you knew the immediate history of cricket much better. Do you think Dennis Lillie has played world over and has done exceptionally well? I think you need to revisit his stats. Moreover you had him listed twice :shrug: Believe me you will be in for a very rude shock.

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

So u dont discredit a bowler: a) For not playing enuff cricket ? b) For bowling in the pre 1914 era on uncovered pitches & ones that offered extravagant seam movement. c) For bowling in an era which has hardly produced prolific batsmen ? He WAS great alright, but how can u extrapolate his greatness any beyond ?

I would say WG Grace was a prolific batsman. Also, he did play plenty of cricket, but it was in form of FC matches. I rate Vijay Merchant as one of the best Indian players ever, but because no one played against India when he played, he suffered in terms of test matches.

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Do you think Dennis Lillie has played world over and has done exceptionally well? I think you need to revisit his stats. Moreover you had him listed twice shrug Believe me you will be in for a very rude shock.

I know the immediate history of cricket, and I also know about the three matches played in Pakistan. If you go and look at the scorecards, you'll see that no one was effective. They were like the test matches played against India last time, where no result was possible due to the pitch.

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

So u dont discredit a bowler: a) For not playing enuff cricket ? b) For bowling in the pre 1914 era on uncovered pitches & ones that offered extravagant seam movement. c) For bowling in an era which has hardly produced prolific batsmen ? He WAS great alright, but how can u extrapolate his greatness any beyond ?

I would say WG Grace was a prolific batsman.

I thought Lohmann & Grace both played for England in tests :hic: I hope in none of his 18 tests he has bowled to Grace :hic: Mr. Grace has a healthy avg of 32 in 22 test matches & a FC avg of 40 in several hundred games. He's got plenty of 100s, but thats about the only stat he has. So its not like he is comparable to a Bradman or a Tendulkar

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Dennis Lille calling Pakistan a 'graveyard of fast bowlers' was due to the pitches encountered then.

[King]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Let me hand you some lessons about your no.5 bowler Dennis Lillee. Repeat after me : 1. Dennis Lille never ever played in India. 2. Dennis Lille played once in West Indies and has no average. Guess what he returned figures of none for 112 and none for 20 in two innings he bowled. 3. Dennis Lillee played Sri Lanka in one test in Sri Lanka and returned an average of nearly 36 4. Dennis Lille played 3 test matches in Pakistan and returned a whooping average of 101. I'm not referring to his batting average, the 101 was his bowling average in Pakistan. Now going by your yardstick as for Anil Kumble is concerned then Kumble should be at the top of the list given you have rated Lillee at no.5

[yoda]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Average is not that important to me in tests. Wickets/innings is. Can we rank all these players by wickets/innings?

Wickets/innings is a tough marker of success because guys like Hadlee and Murali will win out, but that is because of the amount of overs they bowled compared to others. Marshall was part of a quartet so he didn't need to bowl any more. If Hadlee was from WI, he would have many less wickets, but he wouldn't be any lesser bowler.

Good point. But tell me how leaking a few extra runs makes you a lesser bowler? It could be because you have lousy fielders. It could also be because you played better opposition. It could be because you played half your career matches on lousy pitches (like our home pitches). Also, how do you account for top order wickets vs tailenders? Some bowlers have the knack of getting rid of the tail. IMO for bowlers, you need to rank them based on quality of wickets taken.

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

So u dont discredit a bowler: a) For not playing enuff cricket ? b) For bowling in the pre 1914 era on uncovered pitches & ones that offered extravagant seam movement. c) For bowling in an era which has hardly produced prolific batsmen ? He WAS great alright, but how can u extrapolate his greatness any beyond ?

I would say WG Grace was a prolific batsman.

I thought Lohmann & Grace both played for England in tests :hic: I hope in none of his 18 tests he has bowled to Grace :hic: Mr. Grace has a healthy avg of 32 in 22 test matches & a FC avg of 40 in several hundred games. He's got 100s, but thats about the only stat he has. So its not like he is comparable to a Bradman or a Tendulkar

As I've said before. Grace is not comparable to Hobbs who is not comparable to Bradman, who is not comparable to Gavaskar who is not comparable to Tendulkar. But, you can compare them against their contemporaries, which is the only thing you can do. Whoever plays for India 50 years from now, will be incomparable to Tendulkar. I ask you, does that make Tendulkar any less of a player? Would he not show up in your rankings because of that? Eras change, but great players will always be great players.

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Good point. But tell me how leaking a few extra runs makes you a lesser bowler? It could be because you have lousy fielders. It could also be because you played better opposition. It could be because you played half your career matches on lousy pitches (like our home pitches). Also, how do you account for top order wickets vs tailenders? Some bowlers have the knack of getting rid of the tail. IMO for bowlers, you need to rank them based on quality of wickets taken.

There are many reasons for having a worse average, including having bad fielders. But in the end, leaking a few extra runs per wicket taken does make you a worse bowler. Your job, as a bowler, is to take as many wickets as possible while giving up as few runs as possible.

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Let me hand you some lessons about your no.5 bowler Dennis Lillee. Repeat after me : 1. Dennis Lille never ever played in India. 2. Dennis Lille played once in West Indies and has no average. Guess what he returned figures of none for 112 and none for 20 in two innings he bowled. 3. Dennis Lillee played Sri Lanka in one test in Sri Lanka and returned an average of nearly 36 4. Dennis Lille played 3 test matches in Pakistan and returned a whooping average of 101. I'm not referring to his batting average, the 101 was his bowling average in Pakistan. Now going by your yardstick as for Anil Kumble is concerned then Kumble should be at the top of the list given you have rated Lillee at no.5

SS, u are ready to rank a George Lohmann based on what some said in 1910s or 1920s ? And Ravi has shown u Dennis Lillee's exploits or the lack of it, outside his den. On what basis, do u keep Kumble out of this list mate ?

[Lurker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history SS, In this post I shall show you why I am not a big fan of statistics. In this thread I shall compare Imran with Kapil. Why Imran you may ask? The reason is both Imran and Kapil played at the same time, on similar grounds and hence they are comparable. Okay so here are milestones for each(wickets and test taken to reach the milestone) Wicket Imran Kapil 100 26 25 200 45 50 300 68 83 400 - 115 As it can be seen that Kapil reached the milestone of 100 faster while Imran reached the two milestones(200 and 300 faster). I am not considering 400 since Imran did not reach there and if I put my cynical hat I would say Imran may never have reached 400 considering his bad back anyway(he did not bowl much in his last tests). That would mean Imran 2 Kapil 1. Right? WRONG! Imran reached the milestone of 200 in 45 tests against Kapil in 50. But what those stats would never tell you is that they both reached the milestone in 84th innings they bowled in! Yes they both used the same amount of innings to get to 200 wickets. Stats would never show you that. So it goes like this now - Kapil reaches 1 milestone faster, there is a tie for 2nd and in third Imran pips Kapil to post. 1-1 then....fair call? So how does one get inside top 10 and other not in top 25? What becomes interesting now is the fact that Imran gets to bowl more(clearly he would have more than 200 wickets in 50 tests when he gets more chance to bowl). That tells you a story right there. And that is Pakistan's bowling was stronger so opposition would have to play both innings. Indian wasnt so much and hence Kapil would not get to bowl in 2nd innings as much Imran did. That would also show how Imran gained from the likes of Sarfaraz, Qadir, Wasim, Waqar while Kapil well you know it. More in next. xxxx

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

So u dont discredit a bowler: a) For not playing enuff cricket ? b) For bowling in the pre 1914 era on uncovered pitches & ones that offered extravagant seam movement. c) For bowling in an era which has hardly produced prolific batsmen ? He WAS great alright, but how can u extrapolate his greatness any beyond ?

I would say WG Grace was a prolific batsman.

I thought Lohmann & Grace both played for England in tests :hic: I hope in none of his 18 tests he has bowled to Grace :hic: Mr. Grace has a healthy avg of 32 in 22 test matches & a FC avg of 40 in several hundred games. He's got 100s, but thats about the only stat he has. So its not like he is comparable to a Bradman or a Tendulkar

As I've said before. Grace is not comparable to Hobbs who is not comparable to Bradman, who is not comparable to Gavaskar who is not comparable to Tendulkar. But, you can compare them against their contemporaries, which is the only thing you can do. Whoever plays for India 50 years from now, will be incomparable to Tendulkar. I ask you, does that make Tendulkar any less of a player? Would he not show up in your rankings because of that? Eras change, but great players will always be great players.

But u have dodged the MOST IMPORTANT point i brought forward. That Lohmann never bowled to Grace, in tests, who was prolly the only noteworthy batsman of his era. How does Lohmann make the cut ?

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Let me hand you some lessons about your no.5 bowler Dennis Lillee. Repeat after me : 1. Dennis Lille never ever played in India. 2. Dennis Lille played once in West Indies and has no average. Guess what he returned figures of none for 112 and none for 20 in two innings he bowled. 3. Dennis Lillee played Sri Lanka in one test in Sri Lanka and returned an average of nearly 36 4. Dennis Lille played 3 test matches in Pakistan and returned a whooping average of 101. I'm not referring to his batting average, the 101 was his bowling average in Pakistan. Now going by your yardstick as for Anil Kumble is concerned then Kumble should be at the top of the list given you have rated Lillee at no.5

SS, u are ready to rank a George Lohmann based on what some said in 1910s or 1920s ? And Ravi has shown u Dennis Lillee's exploits or the lack of it, outside his den. On what basis, do u keep Kumble out of this list mate ?

I keep Kumble out because of the following: The thing about Kumble is that he is the rock of Indian cricket - at home. Though he has improved considerably in this regard, he still averages 35+ in all away matches. When the pitch offers uneven bounce, he is terrifying. In many overseas matches, he is neutralized when the pitch offers consistent bounce for the batsman as his biggest tools are deceiving with bounce and pace. It is much easier to play him as a medium pacer on pitches that don't suit him. He is still a fantastic bowler, and if the list were extended to 35-40, he would be there.

[Guest BossBhai]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history -- Removed on request of the user --

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Fair enuff on Kumble's away stats, now pray tell, why is Lillee's away exploits not count against him ?

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

But u have dodged the MOST IMPORTANT point i brought forward. That Lohmann never bowled to Grace, in tests, who was prolly the only noteworthy batsman of his era. How does Lohmann make the cut ?

There were other batsmen like Bannerman and McDonnell who were very good. Did bowlers, in general, average less than they do now? Yes. BUt he averaged less than ANY OTHER BOWLER PLAYING AT THAT TIME. So even though other bowlers did better, he did better than any and all of them.