Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

[King]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Let me hand you some lessons about your no.5 bowler Dennis Lillee. Repeat after me : 1. Dennis Lille never ever played in India. 2. Dennis Lille played once in West Indies and has no average. Guess what he returned figures of none for 112 and none for 20 in two innings he bowled. 3. Dennis Lillee played Sri Lanka in one test in Sri Lanka and returned an average of nearly 36 4. Dennis Lille played 3 test matches in Pakistan and returned a whooping average of 101. I'm not referring to his batting average, the 101 was his bowling average in Pakistan. Now going by your yardstick as for Anil Kumble is concerned then Kumble should be at the top of the list given you have rated Lillee at no.5

SS, u are ready to rank a George Lohmann based on what some said in 1910s or 1920s ? And Ravi has shown u Dennis Lillee's exploits or the lack of it, outside his den. On what basis, do u keep Kumble out of this list mate ?

I keep Kumble out because of the following: The thing about Kumble is that he is the rock of Indian cricket - at home. Though he has improved considerably in this regard, he still averages 35+ in all away matches. When the pitch offers uneven bounce, he is terrifying. In many overseas matches, he is neutralized when the pitch offers consistent bounce for the batsman as his biggest tools are deceiving with bounce and pace. It is much easier to play him as a medium pacer on pitches that don't suit him. He is still a fantastic bowler, and if the list were extended to 35-40, he would be there.

I don't care how well you rate Kumble but as shown above Dennis Lillee doesn't even hold candle to Anil Kumble's overseas career. That is the reason you slated for keeping Anil Kumble out of the list and it is clearly proven your theory about Lillee/Kumble rakes of double standard. Lillee was neutralized forever on overseas pitches and moreover he didn't even want to visit India. That clearly shows the pitches he thrived on. Your list is clearly an effort of double standards.

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

But u have dodged the MOST IMPORTANT point i brought forward. That Lohmann never bowled to Grace, in tests, who was prolly the only noteworthy batsman of his era. How does Lohmann make the cut ?

There were other batsmen like Bannerman and McDonnell who were very good. Did bowlers, in general, average less than they do now? Yes. BUt he averaged less than ANY OTHER BOWLER PLAYING AT THAT TIME. So even though other bowlers did better, he did better than any and all of them.

Really! My super great grandpa (who belongs to the 1850s), averaged twice more than any other batsman who played in his street. Surely he belongs in an all time list somewhere ?

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Fair enuff on Kumble's away stats' date=' now pray tell, why is Lillee's away exploits not count against him ?[/quote'] They do count against him, but he still maintains a fantastic average and otherwise he would be top three. His overall away average: 26 matches, 124 wickets @ 24.28. To say Lillee avoided places is not right. He was quite possibly the most over bowled fast bowler in history of the game, with Ian Chappell (his captain) running him into the ground because he didn't trust anyone else. He broke down after a while because Chappell sometimes used to bring him on with only two-three over rests in between his spells! Also, he played four-five tests total in West Indies, Paksitan and Sri Lanka combined! That is certainly not a fair reflection on his ability.

[King]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Dennis lillee also avoided touring India in the 78/79 series .... citing some silly excuse. He has been on record for his disdain at Indian Pitches without ever having played on them clubbing them together with other "subcontinental" pitches in Pak/SL

These are the pitches Kapil Dev thrived on in comparison :shrug:

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Really! My super great grandpa (who belongs to the 1850s)' date=' averaged twice more than any other batsman who played in his street. Surely he belongs in an all time list somewhere ?[/quote'] Really, was this street cricket any sort of FC or Test fixture? If so, what is his name, and I'd be glad to add him to this list :).

[King]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Fair enuff on Kumble's away stats' date=' now pray tell, why is Lillee's away exploits not count against him ?[/quote'] They do count against him, but he still maintains a fantastic average and otherwise he would be top three. His overall away average: 26 matches, 124 wickets @ 24.28. To say Lillee avoided places is not right. He was quite possibly the most over bowled fast bowler in history of the game, with Ian Chappell (his captain) running him into the ground because he didn't trust anyone else. He broke down after a while because Chappell sometimes used to bring him on with only two-three over rests in between his spells! Also, he played four-five tests total in West Indies, Paksitan and Sri Lanka combined! That is certainly not a fair reflection on his ability.

Another double standard. While the Indian bowlers thrived on Indian pitches Lillee did on Aussie, Pommie land and New Zealand. You don't quite consider that do ya? I guess you don't know what kind of bowlers these pitches helps. Why don't you simply alter your list and say the best 25 bowlers of all time on Aussie and England pitches predominantly???

[Guest BossBhai]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history -- Removed on request of the user --

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history SS, with all due to respect to your knowledge of cricket history, i see too many inconsistencies in your criteria to rank players, as summarised below: 1) In one post, u imply that players across eras cannot be compared (listing, Grace, Hobbs, Bradman, Sachin etc). In another post/thread u compare them & rank them (top 25 batsmen/bowlers etc) 2) Your ommission of Kumble & inclusion of Lillee (twice LOL!) for reasons u state, is hardly convincing. 3) Your readiness to rank, unseen overrated players of yesteryears like Lohmann, who played very little high quality cricket and bowled at very few batsman worth mentioning, is baffling at best. It tells me that u are one to be swayed by hearsay more than facts. 4) Your research on past players is a bit wanting, TBH. When i questioned quality of batsman Lohmann bowled at, u were quick to list WG Grace, without verifying both played for England and that Lohmann could have never bowled at him. This once again tells me, u are ready to accept past players based on hearsay in your list (without any verification of facts), while current players are being subjected to rectal scan on 1000 different criteria. Please dont be discouraged, but your list cannot be taken seriously.

[yoda]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Chula's list: http://people.cornell.edu/pages/cww22/Test_Bowlers.htm Criteria: The following factors are considered to rate Test bowling performances. 1. Bowling Base Points The bowling base points are given for wickets taken. 2. Bowling Accuracy Index This index reflects the accuracy of bowling. The runs given away by the bowler is compared to the opposing team's total score. 3. Pitch Index This index is determined based on the runs scored in the match. Normalizing is done to take care of wide variations. 4. Dismissed Batsman Quality Index This is an important index, which distinguishes between two bowlers who have taken 5 wickets each, the first one, batsmen 1-5 and the second one, batsmen 6-10. 5. Highest Wickets Index This is a low rated parameter, and is given to the analysis if the same is the highest for the team. 6. Home/Away This is another low rated parameter with points awarded if the innings was played away from home. 7. Match Status Index This is a complex index, which reflects the status of the match. The highest value is given to a successful, close fourth innings defense (de Villiers' 6-43). 8. Result Index This index is based on the player's contribution to the match result. The match should be a win or a draw for points to be allocated. 9. Milestones Index This is the lowest rated parameter, with small bonuses awarded if the wickets taken in the innings is over 6 or 8. In addition, the ratings calculated is downsized proportionately if the wickets taken are less than 5. Rank Player Team Career Rating Mat I Balls Runs W Ave 5 10 SR Econ 1 Muttiah Muralitharan SL 1992- 1168 101 172 33747 13410 600 22.35 50 14 56.2 2.38 2 Shane Warne AUS 1992- 969 136 253 38134 16692 662 25.21 34 10 57.6 2.63 3 Richard Hadlee NZ 1973-90 918 86 150 21918 9611 431 22.30 36 9 50.9 2.63 4 Glenn McGrath AUS 1993- 911 119 232 27993 11684 542 21.56 28 3 51.6 2.50 5 Sydney Barnes ENG 1901-14 848 27 50 7873 3106 189 16.43 24 7 41.7 2.37 6 Malcolm Marshall WI 1978-91 815 81 151 17584 7876 376 20.95 22 4 46.8 2.69 7 Curtly Ambrose WI 1988-00 814 98 179 22103 8501 405 20.99 22 3 54.6 2.31 8 Courtney Walsh WI 1984-01 776 132 242 30019 12688 519 24.45 22 3 57.8 2.54 9 Imran Khan PAK 1971-92 767 88 142 19458 8258 362 22.81 23 6 53.8 2.55 10 Anil Kumble IND 1990- 766 106 188 33551 14671 510 28.77 32 8 65.8 2.62 11 Clarrie Grimmett AUS 1925-36 759 37 67 14513 5231 216 24.22 21 7 67.2 2.16 12 Wasim Akram PAK 1985-02 750 104 181 22627 9779 414 23.62 25 5 54.7 2.59 13 Dennis Lillee AUS 1971-84 747 70 132 18467 8493 355 23.92 23 7 52.0 2.76 14 Allan Donald SA 1992-02 723 72 129 15519 7344 330 22.25 20 3 47.0 2.84 15 Waqar Younis PAK 1989-03 722 87 154 16224 8788 373 23.56 22 5 43.5 3.25 16 Fred Trueman ENG 1952-65 718 67 127 15178 6625 307 21.58 17 3 49.4 2.62 17 Shaun Pollock SA 1995- 686 97 179 22172 8764 385 22.76 16 1 57.6 2.37 18 Alan Davidson AUS 1953-63 673 44 82 11587 3819 186 20.53 14 2 62.3 1.98 19 George Lohmann ENG 1886-96 644 18 36 3821 1205 112 10.76 9 5 34.1 1.89 20 Jim Laker ENG 1948-59 634 46 86 12027 4101 193 21.25 9 3 62.3 2.05 21 Joel Garner WI 1977-87 628 58 111 13169 5433 259 20.98 7 0 50.8 2.48 22 Alec Bedser ENG 1946-55 614 57 92 15918 5876 236 24.90 15 5 67.4 2.21 23 Ian Botham ENG 1977-92 609 102 168 21815 10878 383 28.40 27 4 57.0 2.99 24 Bill O'Reilly AUS 1932-46 594 27 48 10024 3254 144 22.60 11 3 69.6 1.95 25 Derek Underwood ENG 1966-82 584 86 151 21862 7674 297 25.84 17 6 73.6 2.11 26 Fazal Mahmood PAK 1952-62 581 34 53 9834 3434 139 24.71 13 4 70.7 2.10 27 Kapil Dev IND 1978-94 580 131 227 27740 12867 434 29.65 23 2 63.9 2.78

[King]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Simply put half the names in the original list have hardly played cricket outside their home country. It is a shame someone that claims to be a follower of Indian cricket doesn't even know Anil Kumble is the only second bowler to claim all 10 wickets in an inning, has about 550 test wickets and Kapil Dev was the first to get to 400 from the sub continent. If it was so easy to get to 400 test wickets why is that there are only 2 fast bowlers that have done so from sub continent? This on pitches where slow medium bowlers such as Madan Lal, Ganguly used to open bowling and the team used to play 3-4 spinners. Contrast this to the lone spinner Australia, England, West Indies used to use.

[Lurker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Bhai log can we all get back to Kapil paaji and reason why he should be in here? Right now the discussion has gone completely tangent.... :tired:

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Bhai log can we all get back to Kapil paaji and reason why he should be in here? Right now the discussion has gone completely tangent.... :tired:

Actually thats part of the fun. U never know how threads eventually turn out to be. Take that mouni dude's abusive thread the other day. The first 10 posts were hardly worth the read. What followed was a fascinating discussion on cricket. BTW, Lurker, what do u think about my counter point on lack of predecessors for Kapil dev (my first post on this thread)

[Lurker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

BTW, Lurker, what do u think about my counter point on lack of predecessors for Kapil dev (my first post on this thread)

Bumper, Thats a valid viewpoint but more for today than before. You will have to bear in mind that Kapil started playing for India around 1978-79. So he must have started his ground work say about 1972-73 ish. At this time there was no television in India. Even later on the coverage was practically useless(do you remember the one camera DD coverage till late 80's when every alternate overs you would see the game from behind the keeper?). Radio commentary was there of course but obviously it would not have the same impact. I beleive its fair to say that paper coverage(magazine etc.) was practically irrelevant then. Also bear in mind that Kapil started his career in Chandigarh. A small town back then. It was one thing to grow in Mumbai/Delhi and completely other to grow in Chandigarh. Add to the fact that when he was chosen he was practically discouraged all the way. Most Indian fans would perhaps remember the incident he had with Keki Tarapore(a famed cricket coach by the way) at National Cricket Academy where he asked for more rotis as he wanted to be big and strong fast bowler and was promptly told, "There are no fast bowlers in India". Imagine hearing that from your National coach! Not that things would be different when he got selected in Indian team. On one occassion where he bounced West Indies batsman he was promptly chastised by Chetan Chauhan, Indian opener, with a "Great! Now who is going to face all the bouncers from opposition?". It imust have been hard, if not impssible, to keep your head up and play, let alone be inspired by anyone(Indian or not) in particular in such situation. xxx

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

4) Your research on past players is a bit wanting, TBH. When i questioned quality of batsman Lohmann bowled at, u were quick to list WG Grace, without verifying both played for England and that Lohmann could have never bowled at him.

Just to clarify, I gave WG Grace not because I was unaware they played on the same team (in fact, WG Grace had the highest number of catches off Lohmann) but to give you an example of a successful batsman of the era. I also gave you two others when you inquired as to whom he bowled against.

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Wow, so many posts against my list! :) Though I cannot personally respond to each and every one of them, I'll do my best because I love this discussion. Also, if you believe Kumble and Dev belong on the list, thats great. I just disagree.

[kabira]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history what are different criteria of choosing bowlers on your list?

[yoda]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

what are different criteria of choosing bowlers on your list?

1. must not have played for india 2. preferably must not have toured india 3. ... just kidding. :hic:

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Lurker, As you can tell that i don't participate in these threads of so called the "best players ever" because to me it is almost impossible to compare people like S Barnes to M Marshall or Wasim Akram to J Garner but in this case i must interfere. So if i understand correctly then you are calling Kapil Dev as one of the top 15 bowlers to ever play this game which is nothing short of an extraordinary claim. First you say that his bowling style was perfect for English condition then how do you explain a bowling average of 39 in ENG( from 13 test matches). Secondly if people think that he didn't do well because of the Indian pitches then it must also be mentioned that his overall AWAY bowling average was 32. The supporting cast which included Yadav, Binny, M Singh and Shastari was also not as bad as people pretend it to be. So IMO Kapil was a great all rounder and a very good bowler with an excellent stamina but to mention his name in the top 15 bowlers is just not right.

[Lurker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history MP. Kapil was basically a brisk swing and seam bowler. He was not a superfast bowler. Atleast he was not after his knee surgery which happened in 1984. For a swing and seam bowler his better bet is English conditions. If you compare his record with Down Under you would see he performed much better there(Australia). But that would be the end-result. Purely as a bowler I saw him bowl tremendously in England. Just to elaborate what I am saying Kapil took 12 wickets in 1985 series in Australia if I am not mistaken but of that 8 came in 1 innings, 4 in rest all. But I would concede that if you go by stats it is hard to suggest Kapil was more a English cricket type bowler than Aussie. One key thing to note here is that Kapil declined as a bowler after his knee surgery in 1984. At this time he was the best all-rounder in the world, and by miles. He had made the 250 and 2500 double(something Imran and Hadlee had not, even though they had been playing since much before). Ian Botham was his competitor at this time but Kapil scored him with his fielding and also the fact that by this time Kapil had also won the World Cup. If you check his record at this time you would be surprised at how close Kapil/Imran debate would have been. There is little to choose between strike rate or number of wicket/innings they took. After this though Kapil went down and Imran went up and alas fans today dont realize that. Its just the stats for many of them. As for his support cast think it like this. The players you mentioned put together took 388 wickets in 177 tests. Thats a good 50 wickets less in about 50 more tests(compared to Kapil's record). xxxx

[King]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Wow, so many posts against my list! :) Though I cannot personally respond to each and every one of them, I'll do my best because I love this discussion. Also, if you believe Kumble and Dev belong on the list, thats great. I just disagree.

Fair enough, I don't agree with your listing at all. For the record it is clueless, not based on facts and just some names pulled out of a hat to keep few bowlers at bay.