Vacation over - Bose.

[Ram]

Who says they aren't? Look at the likes of trundlers like Joginder Sharma' date=' Kalyankrishna, Ishant Shrama, VRV Singh, Rakesh Patel, Praveen Kumar etc. etc. They all had a bumper Ranji season last year and lot of that category have been having such seasons for the last few years.[/quote'] Bose didnt have good FC season in 2006. He had an OUTSTANDING one. He got 57 Ranji wickets in eight matches, five-fors in five straight matches, and six in all, two 10-wicket hauls, and three four-wicket hauls to go. None of the other bowlers that are in your list come even CLOSE to matching those figures. Besides , i think you are being a little unfair in calling VRV Singh a "trundler" . Srinath called him "India's fastest bowler"

[The Outsider]

Besides , i think you are being a little unfair in calling VRV Singh a "trundler" . Srinath called him "India's fastest bowler"

With all due respect to Srinath, VRV Singh would be in race for the biggest pansy in the list. The guy starts huffing and puffing after 4 overs of 135 kmph straight cannon fodder with no movement and starts making faces like a child crying for another lollipop. One of the most useless cricketers to have donned the Indian cap. But on to the point, so Bose did better than the others in the list ie. made better use of tailor made conditions for swing bowling. How many times are we going to see those conditions in international cricket?

[Dhondy]

Fastest VRV may be, but so is a donkey when you push a red hot stake up his ass. Doesn't make him a thoroughbred.

[Ram]

But on to the point, so Bose did better than the others in the list ie. made better use of tailor made conditions for swing bowling. How many times are we going to see those conditions in international cricket?

Now, this is unfair. When you yourself acknowledge that Bose " made bette use of tailor made conditions for swing bowling " , then it obviously means he the best among the lot. When your first choice fast bowlers in your team face a crisis of form ( Pathan) of Fitness ( Zaheer ) , then the obvious choice would be to select the best performing medium pacer from FC cricket. Bose deserved his selection. Alas , he is never going to be a run-away success.

[The Outsider]

Now, this is unfair. When you yourself acknowledge that Bose " made bette use of tailor made conditions for swing bowling " , then it obviously means he the best among the lot.

No it does not make him the best among the lot. Making use of conditions tailor made for swing bowling is one aspect and more importantly its an aspect one would expect to encounter once in twenty test matches. England used to go through this kind of BS a lot in the 90s when they used to select the "Headingly specialists". Where did it land their cricket? They are back to repeating the same mistakes with Sidebottom, but that is more due to injuries and you will see him chucked out as soon as Flintoff and Jones return though he will outperform even Marshall at Headingly. How does it make him a better bowler?

[Ram]

No it does not make him the best among the lot. Making use of conditions tailor made for swing bowling is one aspect and more importantly its an aspect one would expect to encounter once in twenty test matches.

Before we get on, is it possible for you to prove that a majority of his 57 wickets were taken on first day , first session green top swinging conditions ? You have assumed so. The stats may point otherwise. What if , an equal measure of his wickets were taken on the 3rd and 4th innings ? where conditions are no more than dusty turners ? I myself dont back Bose to succeed. But pronouncing a death-knell verdict on him , when he hasnt played even in one intnl match is what i feel is a little presumptuous.

[The Outsider]

Before we get on, is it possible for you to prove that a majority of his 57 wickets were taken on first day , first session green top swinging conditions ? You have assumed so. The stats may point otherwise. What if , an equal measure of his wickets were taken on the 3rd and 4th innings ? where conditions are no more than dusty turners ? I myself dont back Bose to succeed. But pronouncing a death-knell verdict on him , when he hasnt played even in one intnl match is what i feel is a little presumptuous.

Unfortunately, the only way to do that would be to dig through the Ranji scorecards and for someone like Bose I wouldn't bother. The guy is a deemed failure. He might do okay in England and NZ where he is going to get some swing but besides that he is a deemed failure. Well, as I said I am being presumptuous by knocking him down even before he played this one international match and would be more than willing to do a chomp chomp on my words but cricketing history suggests chances of that happening are slim to non existent.

[Ram]

Unfortunately, the only way to do that would be to dig through the Ranji scorecards and for someone like Bose I wouldn't bother. The guy is a deemed failure. He might do okay in England and NZ where he is going to get some swing but besides that he is a deemed failure. Well, as I said I am being presumptuous by knocking him down even before he played this one international match and would be more than willing to do a chomp chomp on my words but cricketing history suggests chances of that happening are slim to non existent.

Actually , your argument against Bose is not exactly on strong ground. You first claimed that he wouldnt be successful anywhere else since he wont get swinging green tops that he got in India while playing FC cricket. Now , you are implying he maybe successful in England and NZ. I assume pakistan has such swinging first day conditions too. So maybe he will be good there too. That is already 4/8 serious test playing nations ! Though , I share your sentiment on this. I also feel he wont be a long-term success. But he deserved his chance to get into the team. Time will be the judge.

[chanakya]

In the Ranji finals didn't he get a fiver in the second innings against mumbai ???

[The Outsider]

Now , you are implying he maybe successful in England and NZ

Not anywhere in England or NZ. Only in Headingly like conditions which we are not very likely to encounter in the late summer and we hardly tour NZ anyways. And India does not make the green tops for test matches and neither does Pakistan usually.

But he deserved his chance to get into the team. Time will be the judge.

That's the point I am trying to make. We might look at the stats and say yeah this guy did well and deserved a chance. Surely, our selectors know and have seen more. How can they be so stupid to just look at the numbers and draft a trundler into the national team knowing fully well that trundlers have never succeeded. Heck, if looking at numbers was all selection was about I could do the same job sitting in the US. Anyhow, since you also seem to be implying that the guy will flop in international cricket you are also basing your judgement on more than stats presumably but perhaps you are not as big a cynic as I am when it comes to Indian fast bowlers!

[Ram]

Agree with most of what you have to say. I have to add though , most of mods here ( Gator , Dhondy , Shwetabh and Yoda too) seem to be against Bose. And considering ICF's popularity , You guys surely must be influencing a lot of people's opinon !

[The Outsider]

Okay Sriram, just checked up for you - Bose took 21 wickets in the 3rd/4th innings last season, 7 of them coming against a pi$$ poor Hyderabad side.

[Ram]

In the Ranji finals didn't he get a fiver in the second innings against mumbai ???

Not sure. Can you find out ?

[Ram]

Okay Sriram' date=' just checked up for you - Bose took 21 wickets in the 3rd/4th innings last season, 7 of them coming against a pi$$ poor Hyderabad side.[/quote'] Thanks Shwetabh ! That was quick. Of the remaining 36 wickets, how many times did Bengal bowl first ? We need to look at that too. Anyways , both of us seem to saying the same thing except ofcourse , as you said , you are a little more cynical than me ! :wink_smile:

[gator]

All those names- they succeeded when there was NO SPOT available. That is a different story alltogether. Aussies will give you a chance if you consistently top the domestic league for a couple of seasons...practically garanteed...PROVIDED there is a spot ! They ent gonna drop Ponting or a mcGrath or mark waugh etc. to make room for a newbie! Bose aint competeing against ANY established bowler in Indian lineup!

u r yet to explain why Clarkey is playing with an average of 40 in FC cricket while there are 10 other middle order batters with better FC performances... ur hero, ponting was not too special in FC either when he was picked... he was picked on potential tht some experienced and knowledgeable men in the form of selectors could see... but then, how would you know... u must have been in ur nappies then... till then, u and dance while ur master Vengsarkar toys around the selections based on Google and Howstat...

[The Outsider]

1st match vs. Punjab (Bengal were bowled out in 50 overs, so still a fresh wicket) 2nd innings : 4/47 2nd match vs. Mumbai 2nd innings : 5/69 3rd match vs. Gujarat 1st innings : 4/65 4th match vs. Maharshtra 1st innings : 5/60 5th match vs. Hyderabad 1st innings : 3/44 6th match vs. Rajasthan 1st innings : 6/34 7th match vs. Karnataka 1st innings : 6/38 8th match vs. Mumbai 1st innings : 4/77

[Ram]

u r yet to explain why Clarkey is playing with an average of 40 in FC cricket while there are 10 other middle order batters with better FC performances... ur hero' date=' ponting was not too special in FC either when he was picked... he was picked on potential tht some experienced and knowledgeable men in the form of selectors could see... but then, how would you know... u must have been in ur nappies then... till then, u and dance while ur master Vengsarkar toys around the selections based on Google and Howstat...[/quote'] :hysterical::hysterical:.. there is something inherently funny about that post. Dont know what !

[Chandan]

Is swing attained by having green-grass on the pitch or is it dictated through the conditions? As far as I know pitch dictates only the seam movement, not swing!!

[CC1981]

u r yet to explain why Clarkey is playing with an average of 40 in FC cricket while there are 10 other middle order batters with better FC performances.

because WHEN Clarke broke in, he was the best candidate for the job- OZ were also looking to 'lower the age' and that got Clarke an added boost. But it was his performance in domestic cricket that got him his spot- which he kept for a while because of a good start- and then he lost it because of faltering in the middle and sure enough, Clarkey is not an automatic selection in Aussie test lineup today. For someone interested in 'teaching' me cricket, i did expect a better response, really.

ur hero, ponting was not too special in FC either when he was picked.

But he performend when the opening was present in the test team !

u must have been in ur nappies then.

Pointless patronization by playing the 'age card'- nothing more than the refuge of the insecure to hide their inferior knowledge base.

u and dance while ur master Vengsarkar toys around the selections based on Google and Howstat..

Vengy isnt my master- its a figment of your imagination to think that.

[gator]

Is swing attained by having green-grass on the pitch or is it dictated through the conditions? As far as I know pitch dictates only the seam movement, not swing!!

a pitch also has a role to play in swing though in limited manner, when there is moisture in the wicket.... the air above the wicket will be heavier in tht case and will assist swing bowling.... as the pitch dries out, so does the air above it and will assist lesser....