Funny, Us Indian Fans

[Dhondy]

What happened at Sydney was not umpiring errors. It was a complete breakdown of the umpiring system at best and hand in glove tactics with one team at worst. Third umpire giving a wrong decision, third umpire not being called for one team and being called for the other, and the umpire consulting with the fielding captain to find out whether a delivery was caught cleanly or not cannot be attributed to umpiring errors. Only apologists would do so.

In all the above cases, Bucknor was not involved. Why did India insist on Bucknor's removal, and allow the others to go scot-free? Why did India not lodge a complaint against the third umpire?

[The Outsider]

Dhondy, if you cannot see the difference between umpiring errors and a system breakdown/cheating there is really no point. What happened at Sydney were not your run off the mill umpiring/referee errors. It had everything in it. Third umpire bias, on field umpires not following procedure(different from making incorrect decisions), and the match referee taking the white man's word over the brown man's. Anyhow, here is my post from a similar earlier thread of yours which covers most of what I want to convey :

Yup, I know I won't be on many people's Christmas list next year, but what the hell, as if I care! There are several uncomfortable questions to be asked. Firstly us, the fans- do we hold ourselves to the same standards that we demand from umpires, players...other fans?

Why should fans hold themselves to the same standard that are expected from umpires? They are not professional fans, umpires are professionals - get paid to do the job. Fans on the other hand spend time and money to follow the sport. There is no logic asking fans to hold themselves to the same standards as paying professionals.

How many of you were jumping up and down when Sreesanth was not given out despite being plumb to Monty in the Lords Test last year? Who knows what would have happened had England won that Test match? As it is, the decision allowed India to hold out for a draw, and England never recovered.

There were decisions that went against India in that very test, none more prominent than that of Dravid. The reason that Sreesanth's leg before gets highlighted is it was in the last over. Sreesanth would not have been batting had decisions were correctly taken in the test.

Sangakkara got a similar decision in the recent series against Australia. At that point anything was possible. SL might have pulled off a series levelling win had Sanga been allowed to stay, an event that would have been as momentous as, say, the Aussies winning 16 in a row. Funny, I didn't see calls for all of us to write in to the ICC then? Or is it because it was only SL?

There were threads and posts here on ICF talking about the decision, of course not as vociferously as about Indian decisions, but this is an Indian cricket fans website and that is expected.

Does anybody remember the decision against Kasper that sealed the 2005 Ashes? His hand was off the bat, yet he was given out in a schoolboy umpiring error, a decision that cost the Aussies a proud record they had held for two decades. Did I hear a cacophony of protests on this board? Calls for boycott of future tours?

Schoolboy umpiring error? Kasper's hand was a few millimeters off the bat at the time of impact and it took multiple slow motion replays to figure it out. How is that a schoolboy umpiring error? And yes, after losing the series Ponting made noises about umpiring and immediately got technology introduced for the following Super Series.

Now, when umpiring errors have gone against us, we are aggrieved, are we? We all knew Bucknor's record coming into this match. Why didn't we protest against his exclusion then? It's not as if we didn't know that he'd screw us...he's done it every time he's had the chance in the last 10 years, starting from that negated run out against Cullinan in SA to the 2004 Sydney Test. Why did we then wait till he had another opportunity to finger us?

Completely wrong. There were many threads on this board talking about Bucknor before the series began. The Indian team has in the past made noises about not letting Bucknor umpire in their matches. Whatever you are alleging is completely baseless. If the ICC did not do anything about it, the blame lies with the BCCI not with the players or fans who have been making noises about Bucknor since time immemorial.

By raising a threnody of wailing now, we come across as nothing but a bunch of losers, who seek to degrade the opposition's moment of glory to make ourselves feel better. OTOH, had we voiced our reservations officially before the match, given what has followed, we could have turned back to the ICC and lambasted them for not paying heed to our concerns. Opportunity lost.

No we have done exactly what you are asking for. Complained about Bucknor before the matter and now after the worst has come to fruition, telling everyone that it was bound to happen and with such serious and recent blunders the time is right to go on an all out offensive to get the cheat thrown out, not cower into a corner and wail over the defeat.

But that's not all. It's amazing to see that Australian cricketers are being branded as cheats because they appealed for a bump catch, stood their ground after nicking the ball, or claimed a deflection off the pad as a catch. Right, so we have never resorted to these kind of tactics before, eh? Off the top of my head, I can remember at least two occasions when Ganguly claimed a bump catch in recent series, and several occasions when nicks from Indian batsmen went unnoticed while they stood their ground. Don't recall the integrity of our players being questioned then? The point is, international cricket is a high stakes, winner-takes-all contest. There are million dollar deals up for grabs. Players are under pressure to perform, and know that the difference between a successful career and penury could be a line as thin as being given a second chance at the crease. Under the circumstances, it's naive to expect them to be honest or forthright. Joh jeeta, wohi sikander.

Agree on that. It's international sport and teams and players will do whatever they can to win and nothing wrong in that. Most of the ire is directed towards the umpires, one of whom set a new precedent by consulting the fielding captain before making a decision.

May I suggest that India wouldn't have landed in this situation, but for their ham-handed decision making? Their steadfast reliance on a failed opening pair, championing of a mediocre spin bowler because of his record against one particular batsman, the selectorial idiocy of flogging the fast bowlers to death in inconsequential ODIs, and their board's supreme avarice in leaving the side with no preparation time before a vitally important series, were all follies that deserved to be punished, and duly have been.

Yes, India could have prepared better. Don't think anyone is debating that. The point is that despite all of the above you wrote, we would have won this test match if the umpires were not hand in glove with the opposition. Third umpire not making the right decision, third umpire not being called, the fielding captain being asked whether it was out or not. These are not your everyday umpiring errors where edges are missed and leg befores denied. This a breakdown of the entire system at best and connivance with one of the teams at worst.

Finally, it would be prudent to recognize that you make your own luck. And the way you do that is by winning. The more you win, the more gilded your reputation becomes, and umpires suconsciously make a note of your success. It's a situation the Aussies find themselves in by ruthlessly decimating all before them over the last decade or so. Which umpire dare give a marginal decision against them? Do you buck the odds when you are unsure at work, or do you take the safe option? Ask yourself.

That's a catch 22 situation. How are you going to start winning in the first place if the umpires are not letting you win? And aren't the umpires supposed to be beyond that and claim to be so also? Again, a breakdown of the system.

India had the chance to win convincingly against England and Pakistan and come into this series with a burgeoning reputation on the back of 2-0 victories against major opposition, and as the unequivocal second placed side, a record that would have given the umpires something to think about. On both occasions, they chose the safety first approach to preserve what they had. That conservative approach is now coming home to roost.

Yes, they could have aimed for a 2-0 at both places more aggressively. But the first priority is to secure the series. Even your revered Australians left the declaration for too late today by the comments of all commentators. Perhaps they knew the umpires were going to hand it over to them, so 72 overs would be enough?

Must say that we are one of the worst bunch of fans at taking defeat. I don't recall a match where we have introspected and looked inwards to address our own deficiencies to the exclusion of extraneous influences. It's always the umpires, the conditions, or the conniving opposition. We are shamelessly opportunistic and practitioners of double and triple atandards. I can only hope that the blokes who represent us out in the middle don't think like us.

Perhaps, some. But fans is not some monolithic existence where you can generalize like that. There are many fans on this very board who have written about changes and improvements about the team many times. There are going to be all sorts of people but to generalize and say that all of us keep whining after every defeat is nothing but an attempt to rile up people, in which you have been successful BTW.

[Dhondy]

We lost badly in Melbourne, were we screaming about howlers in Melbourne? We were screaming in Sydney for more than just umpiring. And yes Bucknor has a bias. Bias does not mean that he was not a good umpire once. Bias for a team that consistently wins is a given no doubts about that. The question which is up for grabs when it comes to Bucknor is whether he can officiate without his evident bias towards India getting in the way? And the fact is he has repeatedly shown that he cannot. It may be something which he does not even accept. There are going to be umpires who have biases no doubt about that but the ones that officiate well without them is what cricket needs.

In that case, India should have protested just as strongly against the appointment of Bucknor before the series began. By doing so later, they simply came across as opportunists and whingers.

[The Outsider]

In all the above cases, Bucknor was not involved. Why did India insist on Bucknor's removal, and allow the others to go scot-free? Why did India not lodge a complaint against the third umpire?

Because the BCCI are fools and chose to highlight the wrong events during the test like umpiring mistakes over procedural fallacies.

[Dhondy]

Because the BCCI are fools and chose to highlight the wrong events during the test like umpiring mistakes over procedural fallacies.

Indeed. And Indian fans are ungracious when it comes to conceding defeat. The two are made for each other. The Indian team, OTOH, is turning out to be a mighty fine overseas side.

[The Outsider]

Indeed. And Indian fans are ungracious when it comes to conceding defeat. The two are made for each other. The Indian team, OTOH, is turning out to be a mighty fine overseas side.

We've known each other on message board for years and I certainly do not consider myself as someone ungracious in conceding defeat and you would have seen several instances of it. Biases exist in real life and Sydney brought them out from each and every official involved. It was like a hard worked research paper you write landing up in the hands of "anonymous" referees who have professional jealousy with you and see it being rejected. Luckily, you get second chances there. There were none at Sydney.

[The Outsider]

In that case' date=' India should have protested just as strongly against the appointment of Bucknor [b']before the series began. By doing so later, they simply came across as opportunists and whingers.

India has consistently given Bucknor low points and have asked for him not to umpire in their tests for a long time. BCCI have been spineless in not pushing it through and Sydney was just the straw which broke the camel's back. You cannot view Sydney in isolation as far as Bucknor is concerned.

[Bumper]

Yes, Australia had every right to be aggrieved by the farcical Mumbai pitch. It was clearly unfit for cricket. We weren't too chuffed with the tracks in NZ either, remember? What was Ponting's reaction to Ashes 2005? He didn't ask for removal of the neutral umpires, did he? He made a statement about England's underhand use of a specialist fielder as substitute, which was valid. And Australia have been at the receiving end of series turning decisions before- never was a furore of this magnitude seen. The Kasprowicz decision that lost them the Ashes has been already discussed. In the Adelaide Test of 1997 against the West Indies, Craig McDermott was given out caught behind with Australia two runs from victory. Replays subsequently showed the ball hit the brim of his helmet passing through. Australia were one test up in the series and would’ve won it with two more runs. They eventually lost the series 2-1.

But did we raise a stinker after the Melbourne test ? We lost that game too right ? Infact we have lost many battles overseas (and many due to some poor umpiring), but never asked for umpires to be removed from the elite panel. This Sydney test witnessed the mother of all umpiring goofups. As for Ponting, the point i was making is that the Aussies are disgraceful losers. Ponting whined about the Mumbai pitch to no end. He wanted Dravid to cosign a complaint he was gonna file at the ICC on the state of the pitch. (Did India file any complaint about the NZ pitches ?) What is your solution for the 'Bucknor problem' ? Would u just let him be & risk him screwing us one more time in an overseas test ?

[The Outsider]

Giving examples of Ponting was being not a whiner is not taking your case anywhere, Dhondy. He was crying hoarse for technology after the Ashes in 2005 and whats more got it for the Super Series.

[The Outsider]

Double post

[Dhondy]

But did we raise a stinker after the Melbourne test ? We lost that game too right ? Infact we have lost many battles overseas (and many due to some poor umpiring), but never asked for umpires to be removed from the elite panel. This Sydney test witnessed the mother of all umpiring goofups.

After losing by 300+ runs? That would have been a laugh, Bumps.

As for Ponting, the point i was making is that the Aussies are disgraceful losers. Ponting whined about the Mumbai pitch to no end. He wanted Dravid to cosign a complaint he was gonna file at the ICC on the state of the pitch. (Did India file any complaint about the NZ pitches ?)

That is one complaint India should certainly have made, because those pitches were shamelessly doctored, and unfit for cricket. But did they heck?

What is your solution for the 'Bucknor problem' ? Would u just let him be & risk him screwing us one more time in an overseas test ?

As I said, Bumps, India should have protested before the series. Unfortunately, because he gave Sreesanth not out at Lords, India fell in love with him. See the problem? The thinking here is, "When he gives decisions in our favour, we'll keep quiet. If he bags us, we'll scream blue murder." Unfortunately, that kind of thinking is not viewed very favourably by the rest of the world. Without exception, my British colleagues, and they are decent folks, not racists, please believe me, have been critical of India's stance in this.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Dhondy]

Wrong Doc. He and CA lobbied hard to get Technology in for the Supertest and then ditched that band wagon like a used condom after realizing that the percentages worked in their favour with the good old system . And about that SCG test ... well it was like me and Harisampath umpiring in a match against Aus .... we would make the Bangers look like the Royal bengal tigers even on the Perth flier .... if you cannot understand that simple concept I doubt anything I say would make a difference .

Erm...you haven't run out of guts to rip, have you?

[Guest BossBhai]

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[The Outsider]

As I said, Bumps, India should have protested before the series. Unfortunately, because he gave Sreesanth not out at Lords, India fell in love with him. See the problem? The thinking here is, "When he gives decisions in our favour, we'll keep quiet. If he bags us, we'll scream blue murder."

I don't why you are sidestepping the fact that India have consistently given Bucknor poor ratings and raised noises in the past for him not to umpire in our tests. Sydney was just the breaking point. And Sreesanth would not have been batting at Lords if Dravid had not been Bucknored and no one fell in love with him in the aftermath.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Dravid]

dude..dhoni andsachin wasgiven out worngly for us..so stop the smartass *****ing this is NOTHING like the sydney test..

[Brainfade]

I don't why you are sidestepping the fact that India have consistently given Bucknor poor ratings and raised noises in the past for him not to umpire in our tests. Sydney was just the breaking point. And Sreesanth would not have been batting at Lords if Dravid had not been Bucknored and no one fell in love with him in the aftermath.

Interesting debate, here, when there really should be none. I agree with the professor here. When all attempts at diplomacy failed, we had to pull the stops. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it is the grace that we have shown over the years trying to abide by the "process" that let it get this far. It is that grace that got the Australian captain and his boys take us for granted. It is time we fought muck with muck, and it worked. The result is there for all to see. If one cannot see the difference between the systematic umpiring biases (not incompetence, mind you) in Sydney, and the few errors in Perth, then one's whistling past the graveyard.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[veer]

YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY WE WON !!!! forget you dhondy... :cantstop::cantstop: