Tendulkar's batting exploits while chasing a big total in 2nd Inn

[suraj]

Agreed he is no longer GOD . But still the best ODI batsmen in the team ...

This is probably true but not a good thing- folks like Yuvi, VS who have been playing for years now should be giving him a fight as the top batsman but the consistency was never there and someone from the young brigade needs to step up because SRT cannot be there forever

[Bumper]

finey, i have read thru most of the posts. To push this debate forward more meaningfully, you need to come back with the below stats: In how many instances that Sachin got to chase 250+, he has scored atleast 40 vs failed to score 40. Express this as a ratio. Basically this is the success ratio of Sachin while chasing a difficult score (250+) Now do the same for some of the other great/good modern ODI bats such as Gilchrist, Ganguly, Ponting, Hayden, Aravinda de Silva, Jayasuriya, Inzi, Anwar, Mark Waugh etc. You can later narrow this window down to this decade & repeat the same exercise. I'm interested in knowing if there is any genuineness to what KIC's stats reveal.

[fineleg]

I wish BB was here to run that query for so many players bumps and date range scan etc :D I never figured out how to run these stats queries, though bb and apo taught me a few basic queries. So, cop out. Neverthless, are you trying to prove that SRT was no worse than a Ponting or Inzy etc? Is that the point of the exercise? BTW - it will be better to change the bigger chase criteria to 275+ instead of 250+ @suraj: I kept highlighting kic's post nearly 3+ times in this thread, so more will respond to that, but still many avoided it. Only Bumper has followed it up with a counter request for different stats. Maybe I shud switch to becoming SRT "hardcore fan" and then make life easier for myself and others.:P

[Bumper]

FYI, Varun has built the ICF stats DB (equivalent to BB's). I'll try some queries this weekend, if i get time. Am not trying to prove X is better than Y. I would like to understand how some of the best modern ODI bats have performed in difficult chases. If i do a good job at it, I'll come up with an article on the same.

[maaki]

Is there any other indian/world player close to Sachin in the no of runs he has put up in one dayers. I think our rest of the batting line up has always been a failure.. whether sachin plays well or not.. Does not mean Sachin is solely responsible for our failures.. I think the rest of the team needs to learn to play in one day.. Sachin well he needs a bit of luck at the start usually he is out under 10 or goes on to make a big one..

[Dravid]

sachin has failed so many times chasing targets of over 250, against good opponents, in day night matches with flat tracks, where less then 50k ppl attend the game and the umps r 2 white ppl. totaly ****. kick him out

[udaydewan]

Kumble_Rocks, Two questions 1. How many of these 16 scores has resulted in an Indian win? 2. How many of these are the SRT of recent years? Point is he is a different SRT now! Why talk about his entire career? Over a career he has indeed done very well batting first, and reasonably well chasing. No issues there. He *is* letting us down in recent past while chasing, and you folks just dont wanna accept ANYTHING NEGATIVE abt the Lord!!! EVEN IN THE PAST (which you want to refer to), have you forgotten WC03 Finals? Clutch time, pressure time?

Its plain madness when people blame Tendulkar for World Cup 2003 final loss. India lost that match because the bowlers failed miserably. Tendulkar got out early because he wanted to score a 30 ball 50 and not a useless 50 ball 50 like other Indians scored in that match.

[abhinav]

Another pertinent analysis in Cricinfo guys: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/current/story/340239.html

[Shehezaada]

finey, i have read thru most of the posts. To push this debate forward more meaningfully, you need to come back with the below stats: In how many instances that Sachin got to chase 250+, he has scored atleast 40 vs failed to score 40. Express this as a ratio. Basically this is the success ratio of Sachin while chasing a difficult score (250+) Now do the same for some of the other great/good modern ODI bats such as Gilchrist, Ganguly, Ponting, Hayden, Aravinda de Silva, Jayasuriya, Inzi, Anwar, Mark Waugh etc. You can later narrow this window down to this decade & repeat the same exercise. I'm interested in knowing if there is any genuineness to what KIC's stats reveal.

here are the stats for ponting from his career when playing a match facing a RRR of 5.0 >= Matches: 41 Runs: 1368 Average: 38 Not Outs: 5 100s: 4 50s: 5 I don't know what the fuss about when Ponting had this run of scores in his career: 1, 14, 18, 15, 2, 10, 16, 7, 41, 6, 2, 66, 13, 0, 28*

[Keep-It-Cool]

I'm interested in knowing if there is any genuineness to what KIC's stats reveal.

Well, the stats are genuine. You can read what you want from them. I dont care about high chases or low chases, ordinary matches or finals, Australia or non Australia. Very often, a 200 chase may be more difficult simply because it may mean a more difficult pitch to bat on. The only filtering I have done is to remove scores against minnows.

[fineleg]

Another pertinent analysis in Cricinfo guys: http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/current/story/340239.html

thx for the link

[Bumper]

Well, the stats are genuine. You can read what you want from them. I dont care about high chases or low chases, ordinary matches or finals, Australia or non Australia. Very often, a 200 chase may be more difficult simply because it may mean a more difficult pitch to bat on. The only filtering I have done is to remove scores against minnows.

I dont dispute your numbers. I was wondering if the chasing bug has bitten only Sachin. My study shows otherwise. Here is my attempt to study the same (if you are interested): http://indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=92592

[Keep-It-Cool]

As a passionate Sachin fan' date=' I find it amusing as his critics datamine every nitty-gritty aspect of his batting record. Its just mind boggling the kind of demands they place on him.[i'] " He doesnt score in finals, he doesnt score as much batting second, he isnt good at chasing......" The list is truly endless.

What mind boggling demand are you talking about? I just posted some stats. They are for all run chases against non minnows - not restricted to 270+ or 250+ scores or to finals or the so called "crunch" matches. Is expecting a player to score somewhere close to his overall average in the second innings a mind boggling expectation? At least my mind does not boggle so quickly.

Honestly, what more do you want him to do ? Is he some sort of Toyota manufactured assembly machine, that churns out runs by the millions everytime someone switches him on ? EVERY batsman has some empty space or loop-hole in his record. Its just natural. There is no way we can point out to any single batsman and say " His record is perfect" and thats because, as the number of matches played increased drastically, the different filters of assessment also increases. Can any of us assess how Bradman or for that matter Gary Sobers performed, while chasing in a one-dayer ? Of course we cant, coz they didnt play any one-dayers at all. And because Sachin has played most of his cricket in the modern era, with all the media scrutiny, different grounds, different tournaments, he has become an unfortunate victim of unfair performance parameters. Terribly unlucky, is this guy.

If the large number of matches that he has played were to be an issue, it would have affected his performance / average irrespective of whether he bats first or second. The large number of matches also helps smooth over the ocassional poor patch that may explain a skew in numbers to one side. I dont understand how a large number of matches can lead to such a big difference in averages between batting first and batting second. How is "performance while batting second" an "unfair performance parameter"? Again, I have not created multple criteria - i.e. something on the lines of "performance in a victorious chase of over 270 runs in a cruch match" - which, I agree, is an unfair demand because then he would be paying for the follies of the bowlers. I am just looking at the simple criterion - batting second - and that does provide a large enough number of matches to make out whether there is a meaningful trend. Isn't the decision to bat first or second one of the most hotly debated ones in cricket. Dont the captains toss for the right to decide what they want to do? Dont most teams prefer batting first? The fact that there is a preference implies that it is a key parameter - and batsmen are bound to be evaluated based on this parameter as well.

I have said it many times before, and I shall say it again. Sachin is genius personified. I have never seen ANY batsman, sustain this kind of consistency over such periods of time. EVERY time there have been doubts cast over his greatness as batsman, Sachin has managed to re-invent himself, pull out a new trick out of the hat, leaving even the most biased critics gasping, not knowing what to say from then on. Could there be more proof of that, than in this board ? When the world cup 07 finished, some of the most well-informed, intelligent fans, right here, were baying for his blood. But, from then on, he has silenced 'em all with his amazing performances, ending last with 1500 ODI runs and beginning this year his most prolific test match series ever. All this, after nearly 20 years of his international debut.

I agree with you on all of the above - with a slight modification. Over the last few years, he has been genius personified in the first innings of ODIs. In the second innings, he has joined the ranks of mere mortals. Sad, but true. I wouldnt call for dropping him from the side because we do not have a good enough replacement available. However, I wouldnt ignore his demonstrated weakness while drawing up team strategy either.

Honestly, give him a break will ya ? We are all lucky that Sachin is even playing for us, that we can witness a genius in motion. Instead of probing deeply into the hidden anatomies of his record, why cant we all be just proud and glad of what he has done so far for us ? After all, there hasnt been one like him, and there will NEVER be one like him. He is the crown jewel of Indian cricket. Only, most of us fail to realize that.

Who denies that he has achieved great things, is the crown jewel of Indian cricket, has done a lot for the team and us etc etc etc? However, I still do not understand what is wrong in pointing out a genuine problem in his game in recent years. I also have not seen any explanation from any quarters as to why a player of his calibre should have such a big difference in batting averages between the first and second innings of ODIs.

[fineleg]

Again' date=' I have not created multple criteria - i.e. something on the lines of "performance in a victorious chase of over 270 runs in a cruch match" - which, I agree, is an unfair demand because [b']then he would be paying for the follies of the bowlers. .

^^ Not necessarily, kic. It could be a batting beauty in which case 275+ is the norm, not a surprise. There are many such ODI pitches that one comes across, and many of those bigger chases may be on such pitches as well.

[Keep-It-Cool]

I dont dispute your numbers. I was wondering if the chasing bug has bitten only Sachin. My study shows otherwise. Here is my attempt to study the same (if you are interested): http://indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=92592

Good stuff. Thanks for highlighting. Three issues that I have: a) Sachin's problems while chasing will not reflect if you look at his overall career. I think it is a problem that has cropped up in recent - say the last 3-4 - years. b) I am not in favour of any 250+ or 260+ or 270+ criteria ... why is a 200 chase not as important? More often that not, those chases will be in more favourable bowling conditions. c) I have not done this analysis myself but I would be very surprised if too many players have the same difference in averages between first and second innings - again, when compared to Sachin's performance over the last few years and not over his entire career.

[Gambit]

KIC, I acknowledge that his performance in the 2nd innings has been waning but despite that, he produced a few gems last year in critical games. But what pisses me off is the short memory some Indian fans have. (not having a go at you). With Tendulkar, the last 10 minutes, are all the matter. No other cricketer in Indian cricket history would have had so many attempts to pick holes in his career. When we look at his stats overall in the 2nd innings while chasing 250+,275+ and 300+ totals, they are pretty pretty good. Probably the best overall stats for an ODI opener. But some people completely sidestep that and don't even acknowledge that. This helps to propound the myth that he is a complete non starter while chasing.

[Keep-It-Cool]

^^ Not necessarily, kic. It could be a batting beauty in which case 275+ is the norm, not a surprise. There are many such ODI pitches that one comes across, and many of those bigger chases may be on such pitches as well.

Well, pitches do deteriorate over the day. In general, second innings scores would tend to be lower than first innings scores - especially where the first innings score is in very high territory. Also, even on pitches that retain their character throughout, it would be foolish to assume that batting second (knowing that you need to get 275/300+) is the same as batting first and aiming for that score.

[fineleg]

Well, pitches do deteriorate over the day. In general, second innings scores would tend to be lower than first innings scores - especially where the first innings score is in very high territory. Also, even on pitches that retain their character throughout, it would be foolish to assume that batting second (knowing that you need to get 275/300+) is the same as batting first and aiming for that score.

I'm not saying its the same. However, its not always becos of bowlers follies that he has to pay for, like you said. Thats all.

[Gambit]

I'm not saying its the same. However' date=' its not always becos of [u']bowlers follies that he has to pay for, like you said. Thats all.

Just like the time when it was him and not the bowlers who were responsible for the WC final?

[Keep-It-Cool]

KIC, I acknowledge that his performance in the 2nd innings has been waning but despite that, he produced a few gems last year in critical games. But what pisses me off is the short memory some Indian fans have. (not having a go at you). With Tendulkar, the last 10 minutes, are all the matter. No other cricketer in Indian cricket history would have had so many attempts to pick holes in his career.

Of course he did. That along with the fact that we do not seem to have any viable replacement at the top of the order is the reason why I am not calling for him to be necessarily shifted down the order. However, it is not as far fetched a thought or approach as several people make it seem either. Nor do I understand why most people even refuse to acknowledge that chasing a score may be a weakness in his game.

When we look at his stats overall in the 2nd innings while chasing 250+,275+ and 300+ totals, they are pretty pretty good. Probably the best overall stats for an ODI opener. But some people completely sidestep that and don't even acknowledge that. This helps to propound the myth that he is a complete non starter while chasing.

Well, as per your stats, he is the best in 300+ chases. But Kirsten, Salman Butt and Gayle are better in 275+ chases and a whole host of openers are better in 250+ chases (Knight, Greatbatch, Butt, Smith, Hayden, Mark Waugh, Rameez Raja). But, that is just me nitpicking ;) As I said, I am not in favour of looking at any cut offs nor am I saying he has been poor through his career. My submission is that he does appear to have developed a weakness (or you may want to call it inconsistency) while chasing over the last few years.