How would you alter IK Pathan's bowling?

[msb1991]

Irfan Pathan came on to the scene as an extremely talented swing bowler who was deadly with the new ball in Test matches and ODIs, but an uninspiringly poor bowler with the old ball. He had a flowing action which relied greatly on shoulder strength and timing. He then severely lost pace by 2006/7 due to what I believe was fatigue in the run up and in the shoulder. So, TA Sekhar and Dennis Lillee changed his action to a more mechanical action and although he has lost swing, he is a more accurate, consistent bowler still capable of swinging the new and very old balls. However, the BCCI do not believe his bowling to be good enough for Test matches - how would you alter his bowling action and style (or would you go with fitness work) to turn him in to the Test bowler that he has the potential to become?

[graphic23]

I think Irfan Pathan ought to bowl a lot more outside of matches. He is one of more fit bowlers we have. He showed a very resilient side to him in Perth and even in Adelaide. He's got a pretty good action (I'm an amateur making a decision, so if I'm wrong, please let me know). I've seen a few fast bowlers' interviews and all of them mention that bowling a lot of overs outside of matches will give you pace and more control over your bowling. He can swing the ball at 135 kph but I'd like him to regain his pace and swing at probably around 140kph (wasn't he bowling at 141-145 kph in that Pakistan series?). In this case I do agree with BCCI because in test matches, I don't think he's as penetrative now as he is in ODIs, where because of the pressure building due to maiden overs and his off cutters, etc, he's a bit more successful.

[msb1991]

(I'm an amateur making a decision' date=' so if I'm wrong, please let me know). [/quote'] We're all amateurs here - personally, I make my judgements on biomechanics based on Ian Pont's book, Dennis Lillee's book and Bob Willis' book as well as looking at the successful bowlers. Anyone who has a go at people for saying something wrong is a loser.

(wasn't he bowling at 141-145 kph in that Pakistan series?).

I don't remember him doing so. Speed guns in India and Pakistan sometimes come out with high readings in general and the odd anomalously high reading (Mohammad Sami at 161kph comes to mind). I believe that a possible reason for Pathan losing some swing is because, as he changed his action, he is jumping further forward in the action and consequently collapsing a bit at the crease, releasing the ball from a weaker, lower position without the fingers and wrist having as much control - the lower position of the front arm may be a cause for this also. I also feel that he underuses his front arm, which causes him to push the ball away from the right hander rather than swing it, when his wrist gets lazy. This is another problem that I suffer from; except, I struggle to swing it in - ever. lol:two_thumbs_up: I remember watching a clip of Wasim Akram analysis Irfan Pathan's swing saying that he swings the ball with a rotation of the wrist, rather than RP Singh who locks it in the inswing position. I think that with such a movement, an easier action on the body would be preferable. In his earlier days, his arms swung all over the place and now they are locked in a robotic position - I just think that he needs to relax during the action, whilst keeping his shape. While I was working on my own action, I noticed that I ran in much like Pathan, with the arms rigid and, using a speed gun to time my running, I found that I could run much faster with a more orthodox running style, with the arms free to swing back and forth. I believe that the run up may be a reason that his action seems quite jerky rather than flowing in a relaxed fashion as it did very early in his international career. One thing that baffles me though, is why he never could bowl a threatening bouncer and why his short of a length balls always have sat up - with both, his new action and his old one. I am starting to sound like a broken record, but I suffer from a lack of a threatening short of a length or bouncer delivery even though I, like Pathan, can exert good bounce off a length. I'd be interested to hear why people think that he cannot bowl a threatening bouncer and why his short of a length balls look like they were delivered at 115kph rather than 130kph. He gets a lot of pressure on him too to perform at Test level and people talk about his decline. However, he was never a fantastic Test bowler and his Test statistics have been boosted by performances against the early Bangladesh and a very weak Zimbabwe - this is something that must be taken into consideration when people say 'he used to be a very good Test bowler but now he isn't'.

[Vignesh]

Making Irfan Play more at the domestic level would help...... Perhaps he is just short of confidence...... One series in venues that assist swing would do.. a stint at the MRF PACE FOUNDATION and then a county season in england should do irfan a world of good.....

[Ram]

I am not overly worried about Irfan's pace. Its the lack of swing that I am concerned about. From the depths of 2006, when his pace was relegated to the 120s and he had absolutely no control at all, regularly spraying wide and short, he has regained a bit. But worryingly, the swing hasnt come back. He is now quick enough, mostly in the 131-133 bracket, with the odd spell in which he consistently is around 138-139, but he doesnt swing the new ball that much. And swing, for left-arm pacers bowling over the wicket, is the biggest weapon. I would like him to have a more round arm action than he has right now. Hopefully, that puts his wrist position at the time of release of ball at a more correct place so that ball release is better. And he must definitely concentrate on bracing his front knee so that the body is in good recoil position at the time of delivery.

[msb1991]

I would like him to have a more round arm action than he has right now. Hopefully' date=' that puts his wrist position at the time of release of ball at a more correct place so that ball release is better.[/quote'] I dont think that round arm is the right thing to do. People like Wasim Akram have shown that massive swing can be attained from a high arm. Round arm will limit seam movement and accuracy, imo.

And he must definitely concentrate on bracing his front knee so that the body is in good recoil position at the time of delivery.

It might not be possible for him to do (his knee might just not be able to take the pressure), I have tried to do it myself and I just dont know where to start in trying to do it.

[Ram]

I dont think that round arm is the right thing to do. People like Wasim Akram have shown that massive swing can be attained from a high arm. Round arm will limit seam movement and accuracy' date=' imo. [/quote'] Yep, Wasim did have a VERY pronounced high-arm action, but you might want to know that bowlers like Waqar Younis resorted to a more round-arm action later in his career so that he could get the outswing going to the right handers. I maybe wrong in this but I think if Pathan uses a more round-arm action, his wrist would be in a better 'wrap-around' position at the time of delivery for the ball to released with the seam pointing towards leg-slip, which is the most ideal position for inswing into the right hander.

It might not be possible for him to do (his knee might just not be able to take the pressure)' date=' I have tried to do it myself and I just dont know where to start in trying to do it.[/quote'] Actually, its not got a lot to do with the pressure. A bent knee at point delivery means the body collapses too early, sometimes even before the ball has been released, robbing it of much needed momentum. That almost negates almost all of the energy gathered in the run-up A braced front knee gives the bowler a good recoil position, for him to unleash the entire upper part of his body in the delivery stride. I have tried this in the nets myself and I certainly feel my pace is up 5-6 kmph if I do this. Unfortunately, because most of concentration is on delivery stride, the accuracy of my bowling suffers. But, I think its also relevant to point, a braced front knee is not an absolute pre-requisite to pace. Shaun Tait is the best example of a bowler with BOTH a bent front knee and low arm action, who can generate good pace and bounce. But more often than not, most express bowlers have a braced front knee.

[msb1991]

Yep' date=' Wasim did have a VERY pronounced high-arm action, but you might want to know that bowlers like Waqar Younis resorted to a more round-arm action later in his career so that he could get the outswing going to the right handers.[/quote'] Yes, I was expecting something like this. Waqar was a round arm bowler though whose action was in general quite low and slingy. I believe that a non slingy bowler with a low arm is simply a product of poor biomechanics and will suffer in terms of accuracy as a result.

I maybe wrong in this but I think if Pathan uses a more round-arm action' date=' his wrist would be in a better 'wrap-around' position at the time of delivery for the ball to released with the seam pointing towards leg-slip, which is the most ideal position for inswing into the right hander.[/quote'] I have thought of this theory too, but have realised that if the arm is lower, than the wrist action is not in contrast to the arm and so a lot of the force of the wrist is lost. If we look at Mitchell Johnson trying to swing it in against India with the low arm, you'd see that it works only vaguely and results in an often leg stump line. I have also heard Wasim say that the low arm is not the right way to swing it in.

Actually' date=' its not got a lot to do with the pressure. A bent knee at point delivery means the body collapses too early, sometimes even before the ball has been released, robbing it of much needed momentum. That almost negates almost all of the energy gathered in the run-up[/quote'] How do you suggest that one rectifies this, my knee is awfully bent at delivery, I always assumed it was because I have naturally extremely weak knees.

A braced front knee gives the bowler a good recoil position, for him to unleash the entire upper part of his body in the delivery stride. I have tried this in the nets myself and I certainly feel my pace is up 5-6 kmph if I do this. Unfortunately, because most of concentration is on delivery stride, the accuracy of my bowling suffers. But, I think its also relevant to point, a braced front knee is not an absolute pre-requisite to pace. Shaun Tait is the best example of a bowler with BOTH a bent front knee and low arm action, who can generate good pace and bounce. But more often than not, most express bowlers have a braced front knee.

I'm not disputing the use of a braced front leg, just that it may not be possible for him to do. As you said, you can only do it when you concentrate on the leg and he obviously cannot do that. Tait is a highly unothodox bowler though, so his biomechanics cannot strictly be used to compare with an orthodox bowler like Pathan, imo. It is like comparing Max Walker with Dennis Lillee, imo. You are right that a braced knee is not a prerequisite to pace though, I've noticed that Dale Steyn bends his knee somewhat and know that Dennis Lillee bent his knee throughout his career. EDIT: I have just been thinking - isn't a bent front leg due to the tendon in the hamstring which causes the reflex to bend it at a step and that is used in the reflex test (with the hammer and the knee). This reflex can be combatted with a tense hamstring, so might it be to do with hamstring strength?

[Ram]

Yes' date=' I was expecting something like this. Waqar was a round arm bowler though whose action was in general quite low and slingy. I believe that a non slingy bowler with a low arm is simply a product of poor biomechanics and will suffer in terms of accuracy as a result. [/quote'] That is fine, but the bowlers who were most noted outswing to right handed batsman, like Damien Fleming and Fanie De Villiers had a very round arm action, which is why I think a more round-arm release *might* help Irfan recover his inswing into the right handers.

I have thought of this theory too' date=' but have realised that if the arm is lower, than the wrist action is not in contrast to the arm and so a lot of the force of the wrist is lost. If we look at Mitchell Johnson trying to swing it in against India with the low arm, you'd see that it works only vaguely and results in an often leg stump line. I have also heard Wasim say that the low arm is not the right way to swing it in.[/quote'] Ultimately, what matters most is the actual release of the ball and the time of release. The ball's trajectory is dependent largely on these factors. Slingy bowlers with low release but genenrate good pace and bounce are proof of this. With reg. to Johnson, I have almost never seen his seam position to be upright. Its almost always upright. While a scrambled seam may help the ball move off the pitch, an upright seam is like a basic pre-requisite to swing in the air.

How do you suggest that one rectifies this' date=' my knee is awfully bent at delivery, I always assumed it was because I have naturally extremely weak knees.[/quote'] I dont know exactly understand what you mean by a 'weak knee'. But I see that your front knee is VERY brent at point of delivery, which means you lose both height and momentum in your delivery stride. Before we go any further, I am curious to know. Do you have a pronounced leap ? Coz a high, pronounced leap makes it harder to sync and control body motion during delivery and that sometimes results in more 'unexpected body postures' at time of delivery. I am actually trying to refer to something called 'motor memory'. The more stable, compact and repetitive your run-up and action is, the easier it is for the brain to map all the sequence into itself and replicate it every time. If you have a bouncy, gangling run-up and a pronounced leap, then the chances of something being different every time you bowl is higher, thus the body gives contradictory feedback to the brain, saying something is different or wrong somewhere. This makes you lose rhythm and pace. To give a comparison, we can probably take the cases of Henry Olonga and Stuart Clark. Olonga's run-up and action is very expansive, thus making it harder for him to be in control of his delivery stride and ends up spraying the ball to all parts. But Clark's action is very economical, thus making very easy for him to replicate it. As far as braced front knee is concerned, I suggest you start off this way. Try running in with a slower run-up without a ball in your hand, all the while concentrating on the delivery stride. A couple of steps before you leap into the delivery stride, try mentally locking the front knee in a straight position. Once the leap happens, just practice landing softly, with a braced front knee. All your concentration must be on the front knee alone, all the while. Once you repeat this a fair number of times, your body will automatically get used to the new set of phyiscal routine and you will be able to land with the proper front knee, more number of times.

I'm not disputing the use of a braced front leg, just that it may not be possible for him to do. As you said, you can only do it when you concentrate on the leg and he obviously cannot do that. Tait is a highly unothodox bowler though, so his biomechanics cannot strictly be used to compare with an orthodox bowler like Pathan, imo. It is like comparing Max Walker with Dennis Lillee, imo. You are right that a braced knee is not a prerequisite to pace though, I've noticed that Dale Steyn bends his knee somewhat and know that Dennis Lillee bent his knee throughout his career.

The BEST example of a bowler with a braced front knee generating good pace is Lee. Lee has a terrific knee position at point of delivery and that gives him an excellent 'wound up' position to unleash his upper body strenght.

EDIT: I have just been thinking - isn't a bent front leg due to the tendon in the hamstring which causes the reflex to bend it at a step and that is used in the reflex test (with the hammer and the knee). This reflex can be combatted with a tense hamstring' date=' so might it be to do with hamstring strength?[/quote'] Actually, I would like to think its the calf-muscle that need to tense for knee to be braced.

[msb1991]

Yes, it is probably the calf muscle - I just remember vaguely hearing that it was the hamstring. Thanks for the posts - good to have someone to bounce ideas off. Your suggestion about me bowling with a slower run up does not work in practice though, because I automatically brace it when I run in slower or off a shorter distance, but off the longer distance, it just buckles. Regarding the lower arm, I believe that it is more complicated than looking at the right handed bowlers because left arm over the wicket need a body shape which pushes it across to the right hander before swinging it in. In my opinion, the best way to do this is with a high arm with the body slightly tilted to face off stump rather than straight ahead to what would be outside leg.

[Bumper]

Pathan should forget about his bowling & become an opening batsman. It will help kill two birds in one stone. We'll have the opening problems solved & would have found a useful 5th bowler in Tests. His mandate should be to provide steady starts (average: 35) as an opener and share the work load as a part time bowler providing useful support for the strikers (by drying up the runs at one end). I think its possible to find a spot for Pathan in a Test XI, with these parameters.

[Shehezaada]

Pathan should forget about his bowling & become an opening batsman. It will help kill two birds in one stone. We'll have the opening problems solved & would have found a useful 5th bowler in Tests. His mandate should be to provide steady starts (average: 35) as an opener and share the work load as a part time bowler providing useful support for the strikers (by drying up the runs at one end). I think its possible to find a spot for Pathan in a Test XI' date=' with these parameters.[/quote'] good idea and if he works on his wrist positioning a bit then the ball will swing more. He's holding it a pretty awkward way. With the thumb at the extreme side of the ball.