Vinod kambli - A faded legend

[Gambit]

Err...Kambli was NOT amongst the highest scorers in Ranji in the period i am talking about ( 96-2000). He was outbatted by members of his OWN TEAM' date=' nevermind overall in India. [/quote'] LOL.CC you should really do some research before making 'facts' out of thin air. Kambli in Ranji 1996-97 425 runs@47 1997-98 880 runs@125 (Highest Run Getter) 1999-2000 866 runs@62 (3rd highest run getter) Bottomline is that selectors should have given Kambli more opportunities and not dumped him from the test team on the back of 1 series failure and then used performances ODIs as a selection criteria for the test team. Vengsarkar and co did the exact same for Veeru last year.

[CC1981]

LOL.CC you should really do some research before making 'facts' out of thin air. Kambli in Ranji 1996-97 425 runs@47 1997-98 880 runs@125 (Highest Run Getter) 1999-2000 866 runs@62 (3rd highest run getter) Bottomline is that selectors should have given Kambli more opportunities and not dumped him from the test team on the back of 1 series failure and then used performances ODIs as a selection criteria for the test team. Vengsarkar and co did the exact same for Veeru last year.

My bad, i was under the impression that he was outbatted by his own Mumbai teammates. But i disagree with your bottomline....as i said earlier, WHO does Kambli play instead of ? You cant drop Azhar or Tendu for Kambli..thats madness...neither can you drop Gangs or Dravid, whos averages were around 50 after playing a lot MORE than 3 series at home. So thats the whole middle order sewn shut....so who to drop ? Plus what about his indiscipline....he was still being the indisciplined guy after getting dropped..... And no, i don't agree with using ODI forms for tests and vice versa, but if you get exposed for a crucial weakness, i DO expect you to address that weakness in ANY form of cricket you play at international level...Kambli didnt.

[graphic23]

I think CC, you have one point definitely right about Kambli - he was very indisciplined. I have not seen it but I have heard that he acted as a superstar inside the dressing room and would get drunk anytime India lost a game and his behavior wasn't always the best. Its surprising that he was like this because he grew up with Sachin.. Anyways, talent doesn't always beckon a place in the squad. The personality of the player also goes along with it.

[The Outsider]

^ Azhar was dropped a few times and was replaced by cr@ppy middle order batsmen, so saying Azhar was undroppable is again a fallacy. But the glaring thing is that Kambli was not even in the SQUAD as a replacement middle order bat!!

[graphic23]

^ Azhar was dropped a few times and was replaced by cr@ppy middle order batsmen, so saying Azhar was undroppable is again a fallacy. But the glaring thing is that Kambli was not even in the SQUAD as a replacement middle order bat!!

Really? I didn't know Azhar was dropped. Was this in the brief period when the captaincy was given to Sachin?

[The Outsider]

Really? I didn't know Azhar was dropped. Was this in the brief period when the captaincy was given to Sachin?

Yes.

[Predator_05]

Ganpat was screwed by the quota system which existed at the time, as Vishwanath and co. picked a batsman from East Zone named Saurav Chandidas Ganguly in his place. They could justify it to some extent because Kambli was on a bit of a downward slump after having two terrible series against WI and NZ at home, but the public was pretty unhappy with the decision. He should have got more chances because he WAS very talented (he owned Warne long before Tendulkar did), but i am not too overly sympathetic to his case because i watched him play a lot of ODI cricket after he was dropped from the Test side and he wasn't that good. Scored a rare fifty every now and then (i liked the one he scored against PAK in Anwar's 194 game) but he never came close to earning a place on the test team, especially since Ganguly was sh it hot in both forms of the game and Dravid was doing quite well too. Laxman was also making a strong[er] case. He still played cricket for India 'til the '01 season, which is a pretty good run whichever way you look at it, so I can't say i ever felt bothered by his predicament.

[The Outsider]

Jadeja was tried as an opener, no ?

Jadeja also played as a middle order bat as a replacement for Azhar and when Laxman could have been tried as an opener why not Kambli?

[Gambit]

My bad, i was under the impression that he was outbatted by his own Mumbai teammates. But i disagree with your bottomline....as i said earlier, WHO does Kambli play instead of ? You cant drop Azhar or Tendu for Kambli..thats madness...neither can you drop Gangs or Dravid, whos averages were around 50 after playing a lot MORE than 3 series at home. So thats the whole middle order sewn shut....so who to drop ?

He could have definitely been given a chance ahead of Kanitkar,Jadeja,Bharadwaj and some others who were played in the MO at some stage or the other. When Azhar was dropped in the late 90s, Kambli could have been picked as a replacement but he wasn't.

And no, i don't agree with using ODI forms for tests and vice versa, but if you get exposed for a crucial weakness, i DO expect you to address that weakness in ANY form of cricket you play at international level...Kambli didnt.

Did Bevan address his weakness against short pitch bowling in ODIs? Did SRW address his weakness at the test level? Steve Waugh eventually realised that his technique was flawed against such bowling and simply decided to take it on the body. Kambli after extended opportunities could have also developed a similar plan.

[Mr. Wicket]

How much of Waugh in 92/94 vs Ambrose-Walsh have YOU seen ? That alone should make your comparisons of Waugh and Kambli re: short pitched bowling look foolish. Like i said, the difference between Waugh and Kambli was Waugh knew how to survive against the BEST OF THE BEST short pitched bowling...Kambli got out easily against just Walsh on flat wickets...

Apples and oranges, mate. We're talking about players early in their career as shwetabh understood. I brought up SRW in 85/86, not in 90/91 or so, because those were among his first years. Like Kambli. And like Kambli, he was considered not good enough and dropped. But unlikely Kambli, he was given another chance. And made the most of it. Who knows what Ganpat could have done? Sadly it'll remain a What If. A batsman who on his day could strike terror into oppostion bowlers, who could dazzle an arena with his elegant strokeplay, and who in his youth was considered the future of Indian batting along with one Amol Muzumdar and Sachin Tendulkar, and who still retired with a 50+ average.

[CC1981]

Again, as i said, Kambli was given many chances in ODIs and he did NOT impress at all- he scratched around, occasionally scoring a 50 and was veyr much of a 'poke here, poke there' kinda ODI player for the last several years instead of being a quality strokeplayer who put in a few dominating innings to stake his claim. Furthermore, he did not even TRY to go to county cricket or anywhere else to prove his form, neither was he going to make a dent in the Dravid-Tendy-Azhar-Gangu quadrangle. Yes, Kanitkar, Jadeja etc. were picked but they were picked for very short periods- a series missed by one of those 4 stars or an occasional game due to injury. Furthermore, Kambli was indisciplined...what did he do to show that he's disciplined ?? NOTHING! And its laughable to think Kambli could've been tried as an opener...the guy was a SITTING DUCK to Walsh in INDIA...against one 'very good' bowler on flat wickets, he was exposed...why on earth would you have him opening the innings ? Sure, make a case for him for missing out on a tour to Lanka or bangladesh, but not by 2000- thats 5+ years he's out of test cricket and that is the kind of timeframe where you MUST do something extraordinary to deserve selection again- even the Aussies hold the same standard.

[riya]

Vinod Kambli ....another over hyped talent who got exposed by real great bowlers .He was a huge show pony also ,if he plays a fine innings (once in a blue moon ,that too in ODIs) he will act like he is the reincarnation of Viv Richards .Nothing to talk about ,just a perfect finish to his over hyped career.

[The Outsider]

LOL, CC you are talking as if we had Gavaskars and Boycotts opening the batting for Kambli not to have been tried as an opener!!! And he was any day better than the likes of Kanitkar, Jadeja(tests), Gandhi etc. etc. And ODI cricket is very different from test cricket. Just to quote Waugh's name here since he is being discussed here as well, a half decent ODI batsman but a tremendous test player.

[Mr. Wicket]

Agree, bringing ODI chances into it is an apples and oranges issue again. By applying a similar train of logic, would you argue that Sehwag has been inconsistent in ODIs for a while and therefore shouldn't play tests? ;) And riya, helps to actually have some grasp on basic facts and some semblance of knowledge on the topic. List me the other Indian batsmen with as many double hundreds as Kambli and a 50+ average after any statistically significant number of innings.

[CC1981]

LOL, CC you are talking as if we had Gavaskars and Boycotts opening the batting for Kambli not to have been tried as an opener!!! And he was any day better than the likes of Kanitkar, Jadeja(tests), Gandhi etc. etc.

I'd rather open with Kanitkar,Jadeja etc. than Kambli, a batsman who got OWNED by a bowling attack bowling on the most placid of wickets with only ONE genuinely good seamer..

Just to quote Waugh's name here since he is being discussed here as well, a half decent ODI batsman but a tremendous test player

Yes..but Kambli gave NO INDICATION in ODIs that he has found any semblance of form, given his innings were scratchy and rarely did he make it to 50. Not to mention, you lot are clearly ignoring his indiscipline issues.

[Gambit]

I'd rather open with Kanitkar' date='Jadeja etc. than [b']Kambli, a batsman who got OWNED by a bowling attack bowling on the most placid of wickets with only ONE genuinely good seamer..

CC, I am now certain that you did NOT watch that series. The Wankhede wicket(1st test) was anything but placid. The bounce was uneven and the pitch was difficult to bat on. You can go through the old match reports if you want. I remember Mongia battling against a barrage of short pitch bowling from Benjamin and Walsh. SRT's 85 in that test in the 2nd inning is a real underrated gem. And the 3rd test wicket(Mohali) was grassy by Indian standards and quick too. This is the same wicket where Walsh broke Prabhakar's nose. The wickets in these two tests were far from placid.

[CC1981]

The wickets in these two tests were far from placid.

Placid by world standards- ie, those wickets were most definitely on the slower and lower side compared to WACA/Brisbane/Durban/Bridgetown/Sabina park etc. of the early 90s.

[Gambit]

Placid by world standards- ie' date=' those wickets were most definitely on the slower and lower side compared to WACA/Brisbane/Durban/Bridgetown/Sabina park etc. of the early 90s.[/quote'] Mumbai and Mohali in that series were definitely not krumblers and were not slower and lower. Sure they were not as fast as WACA or Sabina but they were quick and Walsh and co were surprised to see such wickets in India. So no, wickets were not flat or placid.

[The Outsider]

Pitches in that series were anything but placid and flat. In fact that was the first ever test at Mohali I think and the pitch was really quick and bouncy. Moreover, it was not just Walsh but Benjamin was also there in the series. Sure the pitches were not like WACA or Durban, but then how many pitches are like that and what is Indian batsmen's record at WACA and Durban anyways for Kambli to be judged by those standards.

[CC1981]

but Benjamin was also there in the series.

Ben who ? A nobody alsoran bowler ? You make my point- if Kambli couldnt negotiate him, he does not BELONG in Test cricket.

ut then how many pitches are like that and what is Indian batsmen's record at WACA and Durban anyways for Kambli to be judged by those standards.

My point is simple- you calling for Kambli to've been tried as an opener is ridiculous, given that he came in the middle order, batted against an average bowling attack boasting only ONE good/great pace bowler, in an era where most teams had atleast TWO great/good pacers (WI,PAK,AUS,RSA) is sheer madness and height of intractability, given that the pitches he batted on were BY NO MEANS as favourable to pace bowlers BACK THEN as it was in ENG/AUS/RSA/NZ/WI.