Guest dada_rocks Posted August 12, 2008 Posted August 12, 2008 While reading this piece first name that came into my mind was lurker.> i am sure you have already gone through it and have done the usual bit.. but if not then enjoy.. Gated community of India : free from India http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080818&fname=AGated+Communities&sid=1&pn=1
Lurker Posted August 12, 2008 Posted August 12, 2008 I did read it DR, lekin mera naam kyun yaad aaya bhai??
Guest dada_rocks Posted August 12, 2008 Posted August 12, 2008 Wahin gated community insulated from India phir kiska naam yaad aayega.. :--D
Lurker Posted August 12, 2008 Posted August 12, 2008 Wah!! :sad_smile: Arre I seem to be one of the fews who keep yapping about these gated communities coming up in India, how it is driven by NRI money yada yada. Ab mujhe hi wehan daal diya!
Guest dada_rocks Posted August 12, 2008 Posted August 12, 2008 Exactly that's why I thought about you.. you seem to be yapping.. daalna nahin yar tumko wahan mujhe pata hai free pass bhi mile to nahin jaoge.. i just thought how pissedu must have gotten after readint that piece..:haha:
Ram Posted August 12, 2008 Posted August 12, 2008 Whats wrong with it? People have the right to a comfortable lifestyle. If someone can afford it, why not?
CC1981 Posted August 13, 2008 Posted August 13, 2008 Fact of the matter is, the NRIs as well as India's elites/middle-class are some of the biggest traitors of India. As is common with India, all can talk a good talk but in terms of action-its NADA. We are too adept to thump our chests about hinduism,greatness of India, yadda yadda...but when it comes to paying taxes and obeying laws, we are far far off the civilized nations of this planet. And then we will pick communal reasons, foreign reasons and 232903123908 other reasons why our country is fracked, when most of our elites and middle class cannot even do the most basic service for our country such as obey judical procedure and pay taxes. Pathetic.
Desi Cartman Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 CC1981 , people from middle class do pay taxes in India. yes people try to get away with as much as possible but so do people in Aus or US. Businessmen try to avoid it as much as possible but again thats true in every country. The biggest insult to the people who have paid taxes all their lives in India was when the Govt introduced a scheme to declare all your black money and just pay 30% tax on it without any questions or public records. My father paid taxes all his life and most of it was over 30% so why is it that rich businessmen paid only 30% on the illegal money they had. Govt should have actually asked for a penalty amount + tax. As for following rules and common laws , I agree with you.
fineleg Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 While reading this piece first name that came into my mind was lurker.> i am sure you have already gone through it and have done the usual bit.. but if not then enjoy.. Gated community of India : free from India http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080818&fname=AGated+Communities&sid=1&pn=1 Whats the big deal...if people want to buy houses here, they do it. There are expensive and exclusive housing communities in many cities in the world. No big deal.
sandtest Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Exactly nothing wrong in this. Every rich and famous enjoys his life as per his capacity which he has earned through his hard work and intellect, that is what a true free democratic India is all about. We are not a commie *****hole.
CC1981 Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Exactly nothing wrong in this. Every rich and famous enjoys his life as per his capacity which he has earned through his hard work and intellect, that is what a true free democratic India is all about. We are not a commie *****hole. Dont get over-exubertant in your lust for the dollar, vatz. You should realize that MOST of the west is actually more socialist than you imagine. You overlook the simple human truism that ANY society that has something like 60% of the wealth in the hands of 2% of the population is not a recipe for a successful society- the financial gap is too much. ALL nations that report the highest human development index normalize the income to help the poor in the society, primarily by taxing the rich more. And that is damn well justified - if you are making a million a year, you should pay more in taxes than the man who is making 50K. Why ? because you have bigger disposable income and a larger tax % wont pinch your life as much as it will pinch the 50K guy's. India needs more socialism along these lines - something that you are completely clueless about.
CC1981 Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 CC1981 , people from middle class do pay taxes in India. yes people try to get away with as much as possible but so do people in Aus or US. Businessmen try to avoid it as much as possible but again thats true in every country. The biggest insult to the people who have paid taxes all their lives in India was when the Govt introduced a scheme to declare all your black money and just pay 30% tax on it without any questions or public records. My father paid taxes all his life and most of it was over 30% so why is it that rich businessmen paid only 30% on the illegal money they had. Govt should have actually asked for a penalty amount + tax. As for following rules and common laws , I agree with you. yaar, DDU, there is absolutely no comparison between US/AUS and India in this regard. Yes, i know some middle class people pay their taxes, but most do not. For eg, out here(Canada), every business is registered- even the smalltime businesses. Practically EVERYBODY who works hourly or salaried jobs pay taxes because their income taxes are automatically deduted from their paycheques. Its only the super-rich, entreprenuers(who get tax shelters) and the shady smalltime workers who don't pay taxes. Now compare that with India- vast majority do not pay taxes - none of your local paan-wallahs, shopping stores, restaurants etc. pay taxes, atmost government workers and some corporate workers pay taxes, but bulk majority don't pay taxes. And tax evasion is far more rampant in India because it is common knowledge that our IRS is a near-nothing institution compared to the western ones. I think you are going by too few middle class examples to exonerate the populace- fact is, most Indians are fundamentally traitors- even the chest-thumping saffronwadis, because most Indians do not pay taxes, something that is FUNDAMENTAL to the existence of ANY nation.
Desi Cartman Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 yaar, DDU, there is absolutely no comparison between US/AUS and India in this regard. Yes, i know some middle class people pay their taxes, but most do not. For eg, out here(Canada), every business is registered- even the smalltime businesses. Practically EVERYBODY who works hourly or salaried jobs pay taxes because their income taxes are automatically deduted from their paycheques. Its only the super-rich, entreprenuers(who get tax shelters) and the shady smalltime workers who don't pay taxes. Now compare that with India- vast majority do not pay taxes - none of your local paan-wallahs, shopping stores, restaurants etc. pay taxes, atmost government workers and some corporate workers pay taxes, but bulk majority don't pay taxes. And tax evasion is far more rampant in India because it is common knowledge that our IRS is a near-nothing institution compared to the western ones. I think you are going by too few middle class examples to exonerate the populace- fact is, most Indians are fundamentally traitors- even the chest-thumping saffronwadis, because most Indians do not pay taxes, something that is FUNDAMENTAL to the existence of ANY nation. In India its pretty much the same these days for middle class. If you get a salary than its already tax deducted. Ofcourse the number isnt too big yet but its growing rapidly. Small businesses in Aus do cheat the govt. Even the tax agent gives you 10% off here if u dont ask for a receipt :cantstop:. All taxi drivers never pay taxes .. for small business its very easy to dodge the system. Yes its very easy to bribe someone from ITO and get ur case closed for cheap .. My dad (retired banker ) filed for a refund of 20k for 1st year and 5k for the next. Its been 5 years and he is still waiting for a refund. When he spoke with a babu he was politely informed that its 2.5k for each years refund. Now its been 5 years for a simple tax refund .. he complained .. even sent them notices but no jawaab at all .
Lurker Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Whats wrong with it? People have the right to a comfortable lifestyle. If someone can afford it' date=' why not?[/quote'] Simply because a nation is as good as it's people are going to be. If the people dont understand that simple fact the nation is gonna go down the toilet. Lets take a simple example. An average Indian household today has 1 car. Most houses have more than 1 car. Now lets sit back and ask some questions: a) Are Indian roads built for car? NO. b) Are Indian Traffic capable of handling this? NO. c) Does India have enough Oil as Natural resource? NO. d) Will this car-policy help the nation in any remote way when it comes to say balance of payments? NO. So now I need to understand why people having multiple cars in a house is an excellent idea?? And if it is not then why are Indians falling over each other to screw the nation in the name of comfort? xx
Ram Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Simply because a nation is as good as it's people are going to be. If the people dont understand that simple fact the nation is gonna go down the toilet. Lets take a simple example. An average Indian household today has 1 car. Most houses have more than 1 car. Now lets sit back and ask some questions: a) Are Indian roads built for car? NO. b) Are Indian Traffic capable of handling this? NO. c) Does India have enough Oil as Natural resource? NO. d) Will this car-policy help the nation in any remote way when it comes to say balance of payments? NO. So now I need to understand why people having multiple cars in a house is an excellent idea?? And if it is not then why are Indians falling over each other to screw the nation in the name of comfort? xx Thats an absolutely unfair statement to make. You either practice captialism or socialism. You cant live in a capitalistic society and ask people to lead a socialist life-style. Simply put, you couldnt possibly demand all the advantages a capitalistic society offers, like for example having the liberty to choose your own phone connection, or enjoy the benefits of reduced prices due to competition between market players, and then say 'Oh no, you cant make those choices, coz it doesnt help the poor'. Its absolutely duplicit to sing the praises of capitalism when it drives down prices, increases quality of service and offers the consumer better and more varieties of choices on one hand, and then turn back and say 'Oh people who take advantage of these options are hurting the rest of the country'. If people are given a choice to lead a better life, they will take it. Thats a right no individual should be denied, absolutely and unequivocally. So, if you really want to make a difference, then campaign for the entire scrapping of the capitalistic society. Lets all live in a country like Cuba, where, till today, every one gets paid similar wages, irrespective of their qualification or worth, individuals arent allowed to own cell-phones and each and every activity is monitored by govt. control.
Lurker Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Thats an absolutely unfair statement to make. You either practice captialism or socialism. You cant live in a capitalistic society and ask people to lead a socialist life-style. There is no such thing as complete Capitalism. I would be interested if you could show me example of a true Capitalistic society. Simply put, you couldnt possibly demand all the advantages a capitalistic society offers, like for example having the liberty to choose your own phone connection, or enjoy the benefits of reduced prices due to competition between market players, and then say 'Oh no, you cant make those choices, coz it doesnt help the poor'. Lets take that argument a step further. Help me understand how exactly capotalism has helped India in terms or reduced prices due to competition between market players. In terms of property prices(which is the subject here) has skyrocketed. The average consumer has little control over it and basically the property mafia is controlling this segment. Inflation is touching 13% so yes I would be very interested in understanding how Capitalism has actually reduced cost in India. Other than NRIs, or high scale IT/ITES people it is impossible for regular citizens to buy a house. Check every city from NOIDA to Bangalore, it is the same story. Do help me understand how competition has brought the prices down. Its absolutely duplicit to sing the praises of capitalism when it drives down prices, increases quality of service and offers the consumer better and more varieties of choices on one hand, and then turn back and say 'Oh people who take advantage of these options are hurting the rest of the country'. Not me. You wont see me sing the praises of Capitalism. If people are given a choice to lead a better life, they will take it. Thats a right no individual should be denied, absolutely and unequivocally. Better life at the cost of what?? Better cost of life when it affects the overall standard of living in a society?? My example of cars was very pertinent in this regard. Every Tom, Dick and Harry has 2 cars these days and is overloading the Environment with carbon footprints. Why should a cycle rider suffer the same consequence as that who has contributed extensively to the deterioration of environment? xxx
Ram Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 There is no such thing as complete Capitalism. I would be interested if you could show me example of a true Capitalistic society. Of course not, but almost every society has varying degrees of capitalistic elements in 'em. Thats not the topic of discussion here though. Lets take that argument a step further. Help me understand how exactly capotalism has helped India in terms or reduced prices due to competition between market players. In terms of property prices(which is the subject here) has skyrocketed. The average consumer has little control over it and basically the property mafia is controlling this segment. Inflation is touching 13% so yes I would be very interested in understanding how Capitalism has actually reduced cost in India. In terms of real-estate, thats just pure supply-demand acting up there. You mean to say real-estate hasnt gone up in China? Of course it has. And are you also suggesting prices havent gone up in China? Of course they have. Dont confuse socialist policies to domino effect of supply-demand playing its part. Both are totally separate phenomenon. BUT, where capitalism HAS benefitted India is the massive improvement in the quality of life of million of people. In a free market, competition is more, therefore services are better. In today's India, everything starting from phone connections to bank accounts have become more effecient. Do you think that would have been the case if there was just ONE phone service provider or just ONE govt. bank? Private participation in public affairs ALWAYS improves efficiency and thats always good for the society, period. Other than NRIs' date=' or high scale IT/ITES people it is impossible for regular citizens to buy a house. Check every city from NOIDA to Bangalore, it is the same story. Do help me understand how competition has brought the prices down.[/quote'] Real-estate goes through its own cycles of upturns and down-turns. It inevitable. There will be a time when no one wants to buy real-estate, lets see who's complaining then. Not me. You wont see me sing the praises of Capitalism. Of course, you dont do it explicitly. But ironically, you continue to enjoy the advantages offerred by the capitalistic system. Do you, for example, refuse to open an account in a private bank, despite it being more effecient and easier to use and insist that all your accounts will be state-run banks. Am damn sure you dont. Better life at the cost of what?? Better cost of life when it affects the overall standard of living in a society?? My example of cars was very pertinent in this regard. Every Tom' date=' Dick and Harry has 2 cars these days and is overloading the Environment with carbon footprints. Why should a cycle rider suffer the same consequence as that who has contributed extensively to the deterioration of environment?[/quote'] You are talking about a totally different paradigm here. Environmental conservation and the dangers of using carbon emitting vehicles isnt going to stop if you just force people to stop using them.There needs to be massive education campaign, that should be aimed at convincing people about the dangers of climate change and help develop a pro-environment consciousness. Thats an entire project in itself From what I can understand from your post, I see that you sometimes tend to attribute certain the 'ills' of the society as a direct consequence of capitalism. I dont think thats the case. One can be capitalist, yet be society-minded, environment friendly and all other good qualities. They're not mutually exclusive quantities. And bottom-line, no one is denying there are inequalities in the society. But in a free-market, everyone has a choice and option to move forward. If that young student of the poor laborer decides to study well, work hard and uplift his family, no one can deny him that right or stop him. Its upto the individual, period.
Lurker Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Of course not, but almost every society has varying degrees of capitalistic elements in 'em. Thats not the topic of discussion here though. Yes it is. The question at bare is what exactly is the role of citizens in a modern country, and how much of a control can Government exert over its citizens. So yes the various 'scism will be under question here. In terms of real-estate, thats just pure supply-demand acting up there. You mean to say real-estate hasnt gone up in China? Of course it has. And are you also suggesting prices havent gone up in China? Of course they have. Dont confuse socialist policies to domino effect of supply-demand playing its part. Both are totally separate phenomenon. It is NOT a supply-demand thing. It is a collection of issues as I have discussed it many a times: a) Pumping of money from NRIs. This is essentially creating pockets of affluence in our country. b) Speculation of highest order. The property dealers DLF are now amongst the richest in the country, ranking amongst the highest in the world. Where were the DLF people say a decade back? And what exactly have they done to grow so fast? A brilliant business model? I sure would like to see that. c) Brokerage and service charges. Basicallly has pushed up the price without contributing anything. If you buy a 50 lakh house you pay 2 lakh for brokerage. Why?? Why cant you buy a house at 48 lakhs and spent 2 lakhs on making it a better place? BUT, where capitalism HAS benefitted India is the massive improvement in the quality of life of million of people. In a free market, competition is more, therefore services are better. In today's India, everything starting from phone connections to bank accounts have become more effecient. Do you think that would have been the case if there was just ONE phone service provider or just ONE govt. bank? When did India have one Govt bank? Even during 80s we had tens of Govt banks, SBI being the biggest one. Similarly we had VSNL, BSNL, MTNL when we also had Central Post and Telegraph. So no we never had merely 1 agency. However phone connections, banks etc have become better world over and it is simple technology at work. The telecom boom has come at the hands of cellphone technology. take away cellphone technology and I fail to see what would capitalism do to India. Are you sure Vodafone, Bharti telecom etc would spend billions in India for people to have one phone at home and pay standard 250 bucks?? Real-estate goes through its own cycles of upturns and down-turns. It inevitable. There will be a time when no one wants to buy real-estate, lets see who's complaining then. Really? When was this time last seen, in India that is? The fact is we have the worlds largest population and we have tiny area. Dont go by American real estate market. I am in AZ and I know it better than most. I also know that there would always be a bigger demand in India simply because we have a larger population and smaller area. So this market cycle has to be addressed and not expect it to happen. Of course, you dont do it explicitly. But ironically, you continue to enjoy the advantages offerred by the capitalistic system. Do you, for example, refuse to open an account in a private bank, despite it being more effecient and easier to use and insist that all your accounts will be state-run banks. Am damn sure you dont. Not to prove a point but my favorite bank remains a small set up of Vijaya Bank. No hassles and best for my parents to withdraw money. You are talking about a totally different paradigm here. Environmental conservation and the dangers of using carbon emitting vehicles isnt going to stop if you just force people to stop using them.There needs to be massive education campaign, that should be aimed at convincing people about the dangers of climate change and help develop a pro-environment consciousness. Thats an entire project in itself Oh yeah? So I need to educate a MTech guy that he doesnt need to have 2 cars?? The biggest culprits are people with education here. The cost of living has shot up not due to uneducated but educated people. The pollution is down to gas guzzling car drivers and not some poor farmer so not sure if you have a point here. And bottom-line, no one is denying there are inequalities in the society. But in a free-market, everyone has a choice and option to move forward. If that young student of the poor laborer decides to study well, work hard and uplift his family, no one can deny him that right or stop him. Its upto the individual, period. That is basically plain talk. Here is the bottomline. Indians are extremely good at one thing, and I have seen this for a while now. We are good at looking at certain development and then blindly ape it. Thats what we are good at. We are not originals. And so suddenly Bangalore, Hyderabad, NOIDA are flooded with American style shopping malls. And guess what every other Indian would be defending it. Never matter the fact that it took away centuries of bazaar culture of India. Same with housing. In less than a decade people are now happy to cram up in a 2 bedroom apartment with gardens, gym and a swimming pool inside a gated community. And spend 75 lakhs for it! To spend 75 lakhs and live like that? Because we(consumers) are creating a market and the sellers are addressing the market?? I would really be interested if I find a single person who would say yes I want to live like that. xxx
Lurker Posted August 14, 2008 Posted August 14, 2008 Further appropos. DLF is owned by Kushal Pal Singh, the world's richest real estate mogul, who ranks fourth on Forbes’ India rich list with a fortune estimated at $35 billion. DLF raised $2.3 billion in June in one of the largest initial public offerings in the country. http://www.forbes.com/markets/2007/11/27/dlf-aman-resorts-markets-equity-cx_rd_1127markets36.html Yep thats demand and supply at work alright!
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