Brainfade Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Maybe it's time to coin a new one: Obsame? BHOsame? Barasame? And you may bravely click the link below. It is a CNN.com link (not Foxnews or a conservative blog or something of that despicable nature :-D) http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/13/wall.bush-obama/index.html Telling paragraphs: So, although he has been ranked as the most liberal senator by the National Journal and obviously hasn't voted with Bush as often as Sen. McCain has -- based on his voting "record" -- Obama's "rhetoric" still sounds a lot like, well, Bush. McCain might want to take that into account the next time Obama talks about another Bush term. Gay marriage: Both Obama and Bush agree that marriage is and should remain between one man and one woman. As far back as 2004, Obama said: "Gays ... should not marry." And in a 2007 Senate debate, he said: "I agree with most Americans, with Democrats and Republicans, with Vice President Cheney, with over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage, as they always have, should be left to the states. ... Personally, I do believe that marriage is between a man and a woman." And you all thought he was "progressive," whatever that means. After reading this, I might actually vote for the dude (if I had a vote) :-))))!!!!!!
Lurker Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 And you may bravely click the link below. It is a CNN.com link (not Foxnews or a conservative blog or something of that despicable nature :-D) That's mistake number 1. Just because someone appears on CNN doesnt make him/her impartial. Just as Allen Combs appearing on Fox news channel doesnt become a Keith Olbermann either. The writer, Tara Wall, is a fierce Obama "critic" who is often put by other Black liberals, Roland Martin for example, as an elitist coconut. Telling paragraphs: Gay marriage: Both Obama and Bush agree that marriage is and should remain between one man and one woman. As far back as 2004, Obama said: "Gays ... should not marry." And in a 2007 Senate debate, he said: "I agree with most Americans, with Democrats and Republicans, with Vice President Cheney, with over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage, as they always have, should be left to the states. ... Personally, I do believe that marriage is between a man and a woman." If that is your definition of telling paragraph I dare say you dont have much to depend on. At a time when US economy is tanking severely, when joblessness is highest, when Walll Street has had the worst week ever, when the National Debt clock is past the number of digits it can show and when every other industry - Airline, Manufacturing, Automobile, Agriculture, Textiles..and now Finance are tanking, if in this scenarion all you can muster is Gay marriage well you run the risk of coming across as no different than those Spin Merchants that go by name Michael Savage or Phil Valentine.
punjabi_khota Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Gay marriage is a overblown issue. 99% people don't give a **** about that topic.
Brainfade Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 That's mistake number 1. Just because someone appears on CNN doesnt make him/her impartial. Just as Allen Combs appearing on Fox news channel doesnt become a Keith Olbermann either. The writer, Tara Wall, is a fierce Obama "critic" who is often put by other Black liberals, Roland Martin for example, as an elitist coconut. If that is your definition of telling paragraph I dare say you dont have much to depend on. At a time when US economy is tanking severely, when joblessness is highest, when Walll Street has had the worst week ever, when the National Debt clock is past the number of digits it can show and when every other industry - Airline, Manufacturing, Automobile, Agriculture, Textiles..and now Finance are tanking, if in this scenarion all you can muster is Gay marriage well you run the risk of coming across as no different than those Spin Merchants that go by name Michael Savage or Phil Valentine. My only point (as always) is that Obama is nothing special. I honestly don't give a rat's bottom about gay marriage (I have said this elsewhere). But other people (marirs_mania, for instance) on this board have brought up gay issues contending that someone who supports gay marriage is a progressive. The same people say Obama is a progressive. I am just debunking the "Obama is progressive" myth. I realize that I used the wrong example, but it was just funny to me that he would go the same way as Bush. Even a conservative like me does not feel the same way as Obama does about this. As for the issues that you raise about wrt the economy - it is obvious that Obama and Bush have voted the same way, including the most recent reckless $700 Billion bailout. If Obama was really for change, he would have stood against it. If you take the time to read the whole article, you'll see that his "agree with Bush" voting record extends to other important issues - e.g., FISA (civil liberties) issues. One cannot spin voting records. Simple as that.
Brainfade Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 Gay marriage is a overblown issue. 99% people don't give a **** about that topic. Nor do I. I just used it as an example of how a "progressive" like Obama thinks about it. This extends to the economy (he voted FOR the idiotic bailout) and FISA (decreasing civil liberties) bill. If these issues are really important to Obama-supporters, they should at least know how he has voted (not how he has spoken). You can spin a speech; you can't spin a vote.l
Lurker Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 My only point (as always) is that Obama is nothing special. I honestly don't give a rat's bottom about gay marriage (I have said this elsewhere). But other people (marirs_mania' date=' for instance) on this board have brought up gay issues contending that someone who supports gay marriage is a progressive. [b']The same people say Obama is a progressive. I am just debunking the "Obama is progressive" myth. I realize that I used the wrong example, but it was just funny to me that he would go the same way as Bush. Even a conservative like me does not feel the same way as Obama does about this. The crux of your post is - Is Obama Progressive? I will address that. Yes Obama is progressive. He is MORE progressive than all the prominent US politicians that I have had the pleasure to watch in my adult life. I have also had the lucky experience of meeting 3 Presidential candidates in person, all in Little Rock so you can maybe fathom a guess who they were, and I can safely say Obama is more progressive than them all. As a non-American the first "progression" is Obama's atitude that USA has a central role to play in the world but by no means this means that other countries are useless piece of junk. This is in complete contrast to popular Liberal and Democrats who keep yapping - Greatest Nation on Earth. When Wall Street tanked 20% in a week McCain's response was - We are the Greatest Nation on Earth, we can get through. Is he nuts?? USA is living on borrowed reputation, a la Sachin Tendulkar. The Golden Days are gone. Lets stop getting nauseatingly chest thumping about it. I am criticial of both Obama and McCain about bail-out package but the difference between the two is Obama clearly says there are tough times, we need to make priorities etc while McCain keeps yapping about how Americans can overcome everything. That single line of thought - USA needs to make friends and treat them with respect - is of immense importance to me as a non-American. I can safely bet that an average Brit, French, Aussie, Chinese what have you gets pi**ed everytime that whole America is Greatest Nation line is uttered. A little humility didnt kill anyone. This is just about International relations, let me know if you want info on other areas as well. xxx
fineleg Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 As a non-American the first "progression" is Obama's atitude that USA has a central role to play in the world but by no means this means that other countries are useless piece of junk. This is in complete contrast to popular Liberal and Democrats who keep yapping - Greatest Nation on Earth. When Wall Street tanked 20% in a week McCain's response was - We are the Greatest Nation on Earth, we can get through. Is he nuts?? USA is living on borrowed reputation, a la Sachin Tendulkar. The Golden Days are gone. Lets stop getting nauseatingly chest thumping about it. xxx Distracting from the OP, but wanted to acknowledge an analogy well said :thumbs_up:
Brainfade Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 The crux of your post is - Is Obama Progressive? I will address that. Yes Obama is progressive. He is MORE progressive than all the prominent US politicians that I have had the pleasure to watch in my adult life. I have also had the lucky experience of meeting 3 Presidential candidates in person, all in Little Rock so you can maybe fathom a guess who they were, and I can safely say Obama is more progressive than them all. As a non-American the first "progression" is Obama's atitude that USA has a central role to play in the world but by no means this means that other countries are useless piece of junk. This is in complete contrast to popular Liberal and Democrats who keep yapping - Greatest Nation on Earth. When Wall Street tanked 20% in a week McCain's response was - We are the Greatest Nation on Earth, we can get through. Is he nuts?? USA is living on borrowed reputation, a la Sachin Tendulkar. The Golden Days are gone. Lets stop getting nauseatingly chest thumping about it. I am criticial of both Obama and McCain about bail-out package but the difference between the two is Obama clearly says there are tough times, we need to make priorities etc while McCain keeps yapping about how Americans can overcome everything. That single line of thought - USA needs to make friends and treat them with respect - is of immense importance to me as a non-American. I can safely bet that an average Brit, French, Aussie, Chinese what have you gets pi**ed everytime that whole America is Greatest Nation line is uttered. A little humility didnt kill anyone. This is just about International relations, let me know if you want info on other areas as well. xxx I agree with you on this. Since you ask, let me ask: explain why his position on the bailout bill makes him progressive. And his vote on FISA. But tell me this - you never ever address the issue of how Obama has time and again voted with the Bush administration on the economy, on civil liberties, even on the war (when he voted for the troop surge, but spoke out against it until he was forced to acknowledge that it has done some good). Words lie. Votes don't. You focus on what he says. I focus on what he does. Therein lies the difference. Let me address the "gay" issue one last time. Posters on this board (not you) have used "support of gay rights" as an example of "progressive." By that logic, Obama is not a progressive. That is all.
Brainfade Posted October 13, 2008 Author Posted October 13, 2008 The crux of your post is - Is Obama Progressive? I will address that. Yes Obama is progressive. He is MORE progressive than all the prominent US politicians that I have had the pleasure to watch in my adult life. I have also had the lucky experience of meeting 3 Presidential candidates in person, all in Little Rock so you can maybe fathom a guess who they were, and I can safely say Obama is more progressive than them all. As a non-American the first "progression" is Obama's atitude that USA has a central role to play in the world but by no means this means that other countries are useless piece of junk. This is in complete contrast to popular Liberal and Democrats who keep yapping - Greatest Nation on Earth. When Wall Street tanked 20% in a week McCain's response was - We are the Greatest Nation on Earth, we can get through. Is he nuts?? USA is living on borrowed reputation, a la Sachin Tendulkar. The Golden Days are gone. Lets stop getting nauseatingly chest thumping about it. I am criticial of both Obama and McCain about bail-out package but the difference between the two is Obama clearly says there are tough times, we need to make priorities etc while McCain keeps yapping about how Americans can overcome everything. That single line of thought - USA needs to make friends and treat them with respect - is of immense importance to me as a non-American. I can safely bet that an average Brit, French, Aussie, Chinese what have you gets pi**ed everytime that whole America is Greatest Nation line is uttered. A little humility didnt kill anyone. This is just about International relations, let me know if you want info on other areas as well. xxx I agree with you on this. Explain why his position on the bailout bill is progressive. While you're at it, explain the progressiveness of his new stand on offshore drilling (unless it changed again in the last 48 hours), and the FISA bill. But tell me this - you never ever address the issue of how Obama has time and again voted with the Bush administration on the economy, on civil liberties, even on the war (when he voted for the troop surge, but spoke out against it until he was forced to acknowledge that it has done some good). Words lie. Votes don't. You focus on what he says. I focus on what he does. Therein lies the difference. Let me address the "gay" issue one last time. Posters on this board (not you) have used "support of gay rights" as an example of "progressive." In that particular aspect, Obama is not a progressive. That is all.
varun Posted October 13, 2008 Posted October 13, 2008 Give it up already CA. Obama's gonna be the next Pres
Lurker Posted October 14, 2008 Posted October 14, 2008 I agree with you on this. Since you ask, let me ask: explain why his position on the bailout bill makes him progressive. And his vote on FISA. I would be very surprised if you could show me a few quotes where Obama supporters call him as Progressive about the bail-out. At best his stand would be categorized as an action that was "neccessary" to stablize the market (something I completely disagree with) but I must say that you are putting words in Liberal mouths when you suggest people are calling Obama as Progressive based on this issue. But tell me this - you never ever address the issue of how Obama has time and again voted with the Bush administration on the economy, on civil liberties, even on the war (when he voted for the troop surge, but spoke out against it until he was forced to acknowledge that it has done some good). Words lie. Votes don't. I have given you an example of why I think Obama is progressive, I shall give you another. This time domestic. Obama is the ONLY candidate that I saw on either side(including Primary) that puts Education as high priority. He understands that for USA to be on Development it needs steady flow of Science and Technology students and he keeps harping about it. Definitely 100 times more than what McCain does, who keeps yapping about "Greatness" of US instead of accepting the problem. Another issue is Immigration. McCain is the typical dumb right wing loony(and my apologies if I come across as harsh) who keeps yapping about Illegal Immigration, never mind the fact that his record is pretty chequered when it comes to his action in Arizona. However the bigger question is that of Legal Immigration. What has McCain said about it in his entire election campaigning? Has he even uttered it once? Errr no. Obama is the only candidate, on both sides, who has gone on record saying Legal Immigration is a big issue, INS needs to be bumped up, backlogs needs to be filled, rates need to be dropped etc etc. Bottomline, there are a lot of reasons why Obama is considered Progressive(I have give Foreign Relations, Education, Immigration as 3 examples). Does this mean he is a Progressive on every issue? Of course not. xxx
Brainfade Posted October 14, 2008 Author Posted October 14, 2008 Give it up already CA. Obama's gonna be the next Pres Oh, I realize that. And I don't want McCain-Palin at the helm. I am just tempering expectations of Obama.
Brainfade Posted October 14, 2008 Author Posted October 14, 2008 Bottomline, there are a lot of reasons why Obama is considered Progressive(I have give Foreign Relations, Education, Immigration as 3 examples). Does this mean he is a Progressive on every issue? Of course not. xxx Like you always say, we agree more than we disagree. But, on this board, people have said that the country needs a progressive president, and used gay issues as one (not only, but one) that defines a progressive. I was just pointing out the fallacy of that particular argument. And you're still ducking that "Obama says" vs. "Obama votes" issue. He has voted with McCain more often than not. They even voted for the same amnesty bill. More of the same, guys. The only difference? A charming presence.
Lurker Posted October 14, 2008 Posted October 14, 2008 And you're still ducking that "Obama says" vs. "Obama votes" issue. He has voted with McCain more often than not. They even voted for the same amnesty bill. More of the same, guys. The only difference? A charming presence. I am not ducking any questions really. You are concentrating on where Obama has similarities with Bush(or McCain). I have no problem with that. It would be impossible for a politician to have some sort of common minium philosphy. I mean even the arch enemy RSS and Muslim League seem to agree when it comes to Division of India! To me Obama comes across as Progressive. My sense of progression is different from Bill Maher who advocates gay marriages, drug use and ban on offshore drilling. To me progression is when a leading US politician accepst that US is one amongst many and not the LEADER of the world as almost every politician, including McCain, keeps yapping about. Of course I have given other examples as well. And yes we do agree more than we disagree so maybe you are not quite as Conservative as you think? And maybe I am not as liberal either? xxx
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