Terrorism, radicalization, Taliban, Kashmir yada yada

[graphic23]

^ fully agree with fontaine I wish bb/dr/dsr.. will get the simple but clear message conveyed above that is more constructive than turning into saffron brigade and calling folks who respect secular india with names like what bb does

You realize though the official reasons for our flag colors are different, saffron for hindu, white for christian, and green for islam right? It is not a "saffron" brigade. Don't brush it off like that. I 100% agree with what Fontaine is saying as well but this what BB, DSR, et. al are saying are what thousands/millions of Indians feel in India. It is not something to be brushed off about. I don't agree that all muslims are bad (I am a HUGE Rahman, Zaheer, Irfan, etc. fan - and I respect them for their skill but also their patriotism - especially Rahman) but I don't agree with the fact that a lot of muslim leaders around the nation call for special rights for crying about being a minority (again, not all of them do that either). They can afford to not have family planning while every other person is asked/"requested" to have no more than X kids. We are a secular nation and the ****ing govt. should start behaving like one rather than trying to appease every mother****er who thinks that the nation is something he can use for his personal benefit. I don't know if this is what BB and his "saffron" brigade is asking for but it is certainly what we should be asking for. Not killing or driving all muslims away from India. We ought to be proud of the fact that we continue to support any and all religions in the world because we are a secular nation. I am proud to be an Indian because people like AR Rahman, Zakir Hussein, Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam (for whom I hold the highest of regards and hold every book of his as well) are Indians. The very language that we associate with Muslims (at least with that of the subcontinent), Urdu, is born in India. One of our freedom fighters, Azad, was a great poet as well. I read in another thread someone criticizing Gandhi for believing that Muslim-Hindu were bhai-bhai. I don't see anything wrong with that. Azad was one of his closer friends and someone who believed in Gandhi's ideology. He was one of the strongest opponents of the split as well, and was still criticized by both muslims and hindus (for obvious reasons). This discussion is useless. Anyone who has the audacity to criticize Gandhi for his belief in non-violence (and therefore in the relationship between the different sects of India) has no right to call himself an Indian (I know that they can criticize anyone they want because we are a democracy but that is just wrong and stupid).

[graphic23]

You still shouting from the roof top proclaiming yourself as a secular messaih even after being caught pants down supporting extreemist communities who have engineered ethnic cleansing and general intolerence to Hindu philosophy as per their Mein Kampf (a.k.a Quran of which you know absolutely nothing) and openly having voted for the bifurcation of the country ? Do you have any shame ?

I am not sure he's supporting the extremist communities as much as he supporting the "Indian Muslims - Extremists" people. .While you may think that they are very much similar (or that no distinction exists), it is not true. While I realize the very foundations of that religion are based on violence (killing all those who don't believe in Allah (sinners or whatever the hell they call them)),etc., we also had a few faults when our religion started but we have been able to modernize ourselves a lot better than Islam has been able to do. For example, animal sacrifice (which still happens, btw) but before cows were put in yagas, etc- all that stuff has been reformed to a certain extent that the religious leaders don't support those anymore. So, I think there are a lot of muslims who want to reform the religion and what it stands for. Like the Lucknow guys Shwetabh was talking about or some of the guys who live in the Hyderabad - I'm sure there are several leaders who spread peace in that religion as well. We need a holistic perspective on this and not think in a narrow perspective.

[fineleg]

I am not supporting any extremists - indian or pak or whoever. All along - even in threads BB posted of discussion from many months back... my claim is: 1. Punish the perpetrators of violence. 2. Those who did not commit the violence or actively aided the violence to take place, they should not be punished. Being passive or not protesting is not a crime that can be punished. It can be criticized but not punished. These two I have repeated in different fonts, different posts, different times, yet brigade ignores it, and wants to punish all muslims.

[Fontaine]

What is the definition of what constitutes a Religion ? In my opinion its something that can be classed as sacred holy and something that esposes a sense of spirituality. Something that subscribes to the universal rule of "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you" . Almost every religion except Islam follows this basic tenet of Humanity. Islam is the only religion that does not adhere to this basic Rule . The closest that Islam comes to this principle is a hadith that says "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." This brotherhood however does not extend to everyone. Quran (9:23) states that the believers should not take for friends and protectors (awlia) their fathers and brothers if they love Infidelity above Islam. In fact there are many verses that tell the Muslims to kill the unbelievers and be harsh with them. A clear example that Islam is not based on the humanist principles is the verse (48:29) It says: "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.†This is the perfect definition of fascism. There are many other verses that show the brotherhood in Islam is not universal. The rest of mankind have no rights and should not be treated in the same way that Muslims are to be treated. A large section of the Quran is the breach of humanity. Quran tells Muslims to slay the unbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), do not befriend them (3:28), fight them and show them harshness (9:123), and smite their heads (47:4). So why do I need to tolerate this evil ideology when it openly tells us that it doesnt like our ideology ? Who is going to break this news to the Muslim masses ? Why do people get classed as intolerant and fascist if I break this news ? Arent those who strive to support this ideology the real fascist ? Supporting such a killer whale and feeding it is nothing to be proud of. You will get killed by it if you dont take measures . Guaranteed. Dont take my words . Read Islamic history. More on Hitler fascism and Mo : http://www.islam-watch.org/Bostom/Islamofascism-Hitler-Muhammad-and-Islam.htm

There's nothing wrong with criticising and having opinions regarding an ideology, belief system or religion like Islam. But there's a fine line between that and criticising people who call themselves Muslim and assuming or generalizing that they follow and strictly believe some of that nonsense. As a Christian I can openly criticize parts of the old testament which says "eye for an eye" or how Paul insists christian women should hold no religious authority over men and not voice their questions in public regarding religious matters. But that doesn't mean I associate Jews and Christians as holding to those beliefs and being violent with an eye for an eye mentality.

[Fontaine]

You realize though the official reasons for our flag colors are different, saffron for hindu, white for christian, and green for islam right? It is not a "saffron" brigade. Don't brush it off like that. I 100% agree with what Fontaine is saying as well but this what BB, DSR, et. al are saying are what thousands/millions of Indians feel in India. It is not something to be brushed off about. I don't agree that all muslims are bad (I am a HUGE Rahman, Zaheer, Irfan, etc. fan - and I respect them for their skill but also their patriotism - especially Rahman) but I don't agree with the fact that a lot of muslim leaders around the nation call for special rights for crying about being a minority (again, not all of them do that either). They can afford to not have family planning while every other person is asked/"requested" to have no more than X kids. We are a secular nation and the ****ing govt. should start behaving like one rather than trying to appease every mother****er who thinks that the nation is something he can use for his personal benefit. I don't know if this is what BB and his "saffron" brigade is asking for but it is certainly what we should be asking for. Not killing or driving all muslims away from India. We ought to be proud of the fact that we continue to support any and all religions in the world because we are a secular nation. I am proud to be an Indian because people like AR Rahman, Zakir Hussein, Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam (for whom I hold the highest of regards and hold every book of his as well) are Indians. The very language that we associate with Muslims (at least with that of the subcontinent), Urdu, is born in India. One of our freedom fighters, Azad, was a great poet as well. I read in another thread someone criticizing Gandhi for believing that Muslim-Hindu were bhai-bhai. I don't see anything wrong with that. Azad was one of his closer friends and someone who believed in Gandhi's ideology. He was one of the strongest opponents of the split as well, and was still criticized by both muslims and hindus (for obvious reasons). This discussion is useless. Anyone who has the audacity to criticize Gandhi for his belief in non-violence (and therefore in the relationship between the different sects of India) has no right to call himself an Indian (I know that they can criticize anyone they want because we are a democracy but that is just wrong and stupid).

Exactly. Let's get some perspective here. India being the largest democracy has existed for more than half a century with the Communist threat from China looming in the north, with the extremist hatred and war mongering to the west from Pakistan/Afghanistan and the Middle East and countries like Burma and IndoChina to the east where communism and fundamentalism is running rampant. India's democracry has survived and flourished like a beautiful Rose amongst all those thorns and it's maintained it's principles of peace, equality and democracy from all those threats. It's something worth living and dying for and celebrating. Anyone who preaches a message of hatred be it extremist Muslim in India or Hindu extremists, as I said, are more than welcome to get the hell out.

[Lurker]

Anyone who preaches a message of hatred be it extremist Muslim in India or Hindu extremists, as I said, are more than welcome to get the hell out.

Amen to that! At the same time let it also be said that just as Muslim moderates need to fight the hardliners in their midst, Hindu moderates also need to kick the Hindu ultras in their teeth. The reason why India exists is because of Gandhis and Nehrus and not because of Gowalkars, Shyama Prasad Mukherjees. xxx

[The Outsider]

Amen to that! At the same time let it also be said that just as Muslim moderates need to fight the hardliners in their midst, Hindu moderates also need to kick the Hindu ultras in their teeth. The reason why India exists is because of Gandhis and Nehrus and not because of Gowalkars, Shyama Prasad Mukherjees. xxx

:hatsoff:

[Lurker]

how many times has that happened in the past or present ? Its not like this is the first time Muslims have been on the scanner. I need real examples with links to beleive that there is hope.

The link has been given to you up above. Are you prepared to show your support to moderate Muslims fighting against hardliners? Or are you one of those who refuse to be convinced?

phir wahi raaag ..... the irony is that the ideologies of the first two maharathis killed and divided the country ( literally and figuratively ) far more than the rest.

Killed and divided the country?? The last time I checked Gandhi and Nehru are responsible for Independence of India and the success that it enjoys today. Golwalkars of this world did not even have a fraction of Indian population support so frankly lets not talk of these keede makodes in the same sentence as Gandhi and Nehru.

Infact the reason for existence of the second lot is because of the mindless and reckless pandering of Muslims by the first two gentlemen

I thought Ali Sina had convinced you that Muslims are by nature like this?? That Quran is the most devilish book ever that brainwashes Muslims?? That Prophet Muhammed was a paedophile yada yada. So now it becomes Gandhi/Nehru's fault that Muslims turn out the way they did?? Make up your mind BB. xxx

[graphic23]

What is the definition of what constitutes a Religion ? In my opinion its something that can be classed as sacred holy and something that esposes a sense of spirituality. Something that subscribes to the universal rule of "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you" . Almost every religion except Islam follows this basic tenet of Humanity. Islam is the only religion that does not adhere to this basic Rule . The closest that Islam comes to this principle is a hadith that says "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." This brotherhood however does not extend to everyone. Quran (9:23) states that the believers should not take for friends and protectors (awlia) their fathers and brothers if they love Infidelity above Islam. In fact there are many verses that tell the Muslims to kill the unbelievers and be harsh with them. A clear example that Islam is not based on the humanist principles is the verse (48:29) It says: "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.†This is the perfect definition of fascism. There are many other verses that show the brotherhood in Islam is not universal. The rest of mankind have no rights and should not be treated in the same way that Muslims are to be treated. A large section of the Quran is the breach of humanity. Quran tells Muslims to slay the unbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), do not befriend them (3:28), fight them and show them harshness (9:123), and smite their heads (47:4). So why do I need to tolerate this evil ideology when it openly tells us that it doesnt like our ideology ? Who is going to break this news to the Muslim masses ? Why do people get classed as intolerant and fascist if I break this news ? Arent those who strive to support this ideology the real fascist ? Supporting such a killer whale and feeding it is nothing to be proud of. You will get killed by it if you dont take measures . Guaranteed. Dont take my words . Read Islamic history. More on Hitler fascism and Mo : http://www.islam-watch.org/Bostom/Islamofascism-Hitler-Muhammad-and-Islam.htm

In my previous post, I had already said that Islam by its foundation is itself very violent/fundamentalist, etc. Although our religious texts (whichever one is concerned) doesn't ask us to separate and mistreat other people because of our caste, or tell us to sacrifice animals for the gods ,etc. - for a long time (and with rest to caste, its still the case), Hindus did practice some of these atrocities. Like for me, I was taught that Madhvacharya (and his brother actually) were primarily responsible for getting rid of something of these nonsensical beliefs in our religion. Perhaps, in a similar way, there are people who recognize the shortcomings of the Quran - it IS possible - because otherwise every muslim, whenever confronted with any other person, would aim to kill him - we don't see that happening in India do we? I think that is the most important thing to realize and not just say that "they're waiting to kill you but are not because they're the minority." - Does the Quran say "be clever about killing these sinners" ? I don't know - it just seems like a very narrowed out perspective and very negative-minded perspective to criticize all the muslims. In fact, I'd even be willing to say that Islam (the ideology) is a terrible one but the ones who are following it are not all who believe in every single word of it. They have the same common sense every other human is gifted with, and in this age, they are able to recognize those falsities.

[retterimp]

There's nothing wrong with criticising and having opinions regarding an ideology, belief system or religion like Islam. But there's a fine line between that and criticising people who call themselves Muslim and assuming or generalizing that they follow and strictly believe some of that nonsense. As a Christian I can openly criticize parts of the old testament which says "eye for an eye" or how Paul insists christian women should hold no religious authority over men and not voice their questions in public regarding religious matters. But that doesn't mean I associate Jews and Christians as holding to those beliefs and being violent with an eye for an eye mentality.

But in islam you cannot pick and choose. And what you're calling 'nonsense' is NOT nonsense for muslims. You are only a muslim if you believe each and every letter of the quran. But I don't think you get it. You say that you can criticize/not follow some parts of your christian old testament and still call yourself a christian. But that is not true in islam, you cannot pick and choose. I'll give you a simple example. Ask an indian who calls himself muslim whose side they will take if the islamic republic of pakistan invades india. If he says pakistan then he is a TRUE MUSLIM because he supports the UMMAH, and that would be bad news if you thought he's your friend :omg:. But if he says india, that means he puts the country he lives in before the UMMAH and which does NOT make him a muslim. That then makes him simply an Indian and then you don't have to be scared of him :--D. Moderators I know religious discussion is not allowed but it seems some people here just don't get it and mouth off cliched stuff without studying a thing about religions. Please allow this post so that thick headed people can actually get it now.

[veer]

call whatever you like for that religion.. but just dont call 'religion of peace'... if you do then you just dont the history and what that religion book says..

[Fontaine]

A entire community votes enmasse in favour of a Zealot like Jinnah ' date=' systematically wipes out minorites and has extreemly long and horryfying track record of violence destruction and seperatism and you ask me to beleive that its only a teeny weeny sample of bad eggs that where responsible for all that ? Could you tell me the logic behind that ?[/quote'] I never said it was only a tiny sample. You made that assumption and it shows your mindset.

[Fontaine]

But in islam you cannot pick and choose. And what you're calling 'nonsense' is NOT nonsense for muslims. You are only a muslim if you believe each and every letter of the quran. But I don't think you get it. You say that you can criticize/not follow some parts of your christian old testament and still call yourself a christian. But that is not true in islam, you cannot pick and choose.

Again that's your interpretation and while I agree in principle such as the Koran specifically states that a later verse can over rule a previous peaceful one it's up to the individual muslim to follow what interpretation they deem right for them. And the last time I checked it's not up to you or any other individual to proclaim what muslims believe and what they don't. It's not rocket science. You can criticize a religion but assuming or generalizing for an entire base of people on what they believe and don't is the height of stupidity.

I'll give you a simple example. Ask an indian who calls himself muslim whose side they will take if the islamic republic of pakistan invades india. If he says pakistan then he is a TRUE MUSLIM because he supports the UMMAH, and that would be bad news if you thought he's your friend :omg:. But if he says india, that means he puts the country he lives in before the UMMAH and which does NOT make him a muslim. That then makes him simply an Indian and then you don't have to be scared of him :--D.

That's pretty obvious. And it's pretty much what I've been saying. India as a democracy guarantees the freedom and equality of all religions but if someone puts their religion ahead of the state and country then they can get the hell out.

[King Tendulkar]

^ fully agree with fontaine I wish bb/dr/dsr.. will get the simple but clear message conveyed above that is more constructive than turning into saffron brigade and calling folks who respect secular india with names like what bb does

Why what have i said? I just dont like islam and the jihadis. Also indian muslims are threat to our national security as well. What do you find objectionable to the above?

[retterimp]

Again that's your interpretation and while I agree in principle such as the Koran specifically states that a later verse can over rule a previous peaceful one it's up to the individual muslim to follow what interpretation they deem right for them. And the last time I checked it's not up to you or any other individual to proclaim what muslims believe and what they don't. It's not rocket science. You can criticize a religion but assuming or generalizing for an entire base of people on what they believe and don't is the height of stupidity. That's pretty obvious. And it's pretty much what I've been saying. India as a democracy guarantees the freedom and equality of all religions but if someone puts their religion ahead of the state and country then they can get the hell out.

good to know we're on the same page. But about india being a democracy and granting freedom of religion, i'm afraid islam shouldn't be included. The ideology of islam is such that no non-islamic country can allow muslims to live like they want to. I know it's sad considering that I'm from Dubai and the muslims do a great job here of keeping harmony, but who said life's fair. The only way to stop this nonsense from happening all over the world would be to stop muslims from entering any non-islamic country.Muslim countries are free to do the reverse. Oh and of course, I'm only talking of those muslims that follow their religion to the T, not the fake ones that pick and choose(like most Indians 'muslims').

[graphic23]

Why what have i said? I just dont like islam and the jihadis. Also indian muslims are threat to our national security as well. What do you find objectionable to the above?

In math (or any logic), a counter example is enough to prove the theorem incorrect. I can give you at least 50 counterexamples. I will honestly and without any doubt say that you are one of the people who wants to further divide india rather than unify it. No one is finding fault with the statement that nearly all of the terror attacks on India have been done by muslims - which leads to the statement all terrorists have been muslims. But to use that and say all muslims are terrorists is WRONG because of my argument with BB.

[King Tendulkar]

In math (or any logic)' date=' a counter example is enough to prove the theorem incorrect. I can give you at least 50 counterexamples. I will honestly and without any doubt say that you are one of the people who wants to further divide india rather than unify it. No one is finding fault with the statement that nearly all of the terror attacks on India have been done by muslims - which leads to the statement all terrorists have been muslims. But to use that and say all muslims are terrorists is WRONG because of my argument with BB.[/quote'] When did i say all muslims are terrorists. Please find one post. If you dont then retract your remark. Also the fact that I say that indian muslims are involved in terrorist acts and are a security problem is not rumour but a fact. Or are you saying that indian muslims are not involved in terrorism?

[graphic23]

When did i say all muslims are terrorists. Please find one post. If you dont then retract your remark. Also the fact that I say that indian muslims are involved in terrorist acts and are a security problem is not rumour but a fact. Or are you saying that indian muslims are not involved in terrorism?

When you say "indian muslims are a threat to national security", it translates to, whether you intended it or not, "indian muslims are terrorists". I never denied that some muslims are a security problem but not all of them (I'd like to say that more than half of indian muslims are grateful to be living in a secular country). I will not retract my statement because you are making hateful statements.

[King Tendulkar]

When you say "indian muslims are a threat to national security"' date=' it translates to, whether you intended it or not, "indian muslims are terrorists". I never denied that [i']some muslims are a security problem but not all of them (I'd like to say that more than half of indian muslims are grateful to be living in a secular country). I will not retract my statement because you are making hateful statements.

What a ridiculous post. It translates to blah blah You have just said some muslims are a security problem, that is a statement of hate.

[graphic23]

What a ridiculous post. It translates to blah blah You have just said some muslims are a security problem, that is a statement of hate.

I will also say that some Hindus are a threat to national security, etc. That is just probability - not spreading hatred. I am done arguing with an impregnable, narrow-minded fool.