What Pakistan Won't Do, the World Should - Washington Post

[The Outsider]

I kind of agree with Shwetabh with only difference that i do not want to resort to twiddling thumbs doing nothing and waiting for another blast... I want Indian machinery to put in place similar philopshy of thousand cuts which pakistan has viz a viz India.. I say open hostitlity might lead to nuclear war but then blowing people up inside pakistan certainlyiwon't do.. let us reopen RAW wings that concentarted on this and other sepratist activitis in pakistan....... .Hate Vajpayee and Moraraji Desain for folding that operation in 70's.......That should have gone on

Obviously, covert operations are the way to go but any overt war will most likely turn out to be disastorous which seemed to be the choice offered by Dhondy in his post. It's very easy to write about these things hypothetically, but the thought of a nuclear bomb exploding over say Lucknow killing all my family, relatives is what we are dealing with. There are millions of people like me who are going to bear the brunt of this. The death of 200 people has caused so much of anguish, anger, and grief, can you imagine what the death of millions will do the colective psyche of the nation.

[Dhondy]

It's also the main reason why I have divested myself of any pretense of patriotism. Unlike those starry eyed adolescent years, I now accept that I am a wimp, and will always choose the safest option for my family and I. I now know that unlike when I was very young, I can actually live with my own cowardice. And since I am a wimp, I cannot be a patriot. Self-realisation. All I now need is a Bodhi tree. Preferably in a bomb proof enclosure.

[Lurker]

And since I am a wimp' date=' I cannot be a patriot. Self-realisation. [b']All I now need is a Bodhi tree. Preferably in a bomb proof enclosure.

Gaya welcomes you then. No chance of a Nuclear bomb landing there anytime soon :rotfl:

Obviously, covert operations are the way to go but any overt war will most likely turn out to be disastorous which seemed to be the choice offered by Dhondy in his post. It's very easy to write about these things hypothetically, but the thought of a nuclear bomb exploding over say Lucknow killing all my family, relatives is what we are dealing with. There are millions of people like me who are going to bear the brunt of this. The death of 200 people has caused so much of anguish, anger, and grief, can you imagine what the death of millions will do the colective psyche of the nation.

Overt war has its negatives but covert war ensures that two nations are basically enemies for ever. No two nations fighting covert war has ever been friends, nor has the war ended. Thus far India atleast has an upper hand morally, with covert war even that goes down the pooper. I am all for covert operations to get Dawood or LeT operatives, but if the issue is to reign in Pakistan we will have to be overt about it.

[Dhondy]

I know ****- all about covert and overt operations, and leave people who know about that sort of stuff to hold forth. All I know is if the masterminds behind this continue to breathe and plot further atrocities, all our outrage is a terrible mistake, because the only thing worse than doing nothing is to waste an inordinate amount of time talking about it.

[punjabi_khota]

Obviously' date=' covert operations are the way to go but any overt war will most likely turn out to be disastorous which seemed to be the choice offered by Dhondy in his post. It's very easy to write about these things hypothetically, but the thought of a nuclear bomb exploding over say Lucknow killing all my family, relatives is what we are dealing with. There are millions of people like me who are going to bear the brunt of this. The death of 200 people has caused so much of anguish, anger, and grief, can you imagine what the death of millions will do the colective psyche of the nation.[/quote'] While I obviously acknowledge the risks involved in striking targets within Pakistan by missiles, I do not think covert operations alone can accomplish anything. When we talk about terror camps, we are potentially dealing with tens of thousands of recruits doing they daura aam and daura khas and other training in those camps, just in the POK region alone. Then there is the whole western NWFP and FATA regions, where US is currently dropping missiles, but only in a limited zone. Covert Mossad style operations can AT BEST be successful in killing a few biggies, but thats about it.

[The Outsider]

Overt war has its negatives but covert war ensures that two nations are basically enemies for ever. No two nations fighting covert war has ever been friends, nor has the war ended. Thus far India atleast has an upper hand morally, with covert war even that goes down the pooper. I am all for covert operations to get Dawood or LeT operatives, but if the issue is to reign in Pakistan we will have to be overt about it.

Why not? Just look at US and the Soviets - they had a covert war going on for decades and then one of them collapsed to the extent that the other one is not threatened by it anymore, or atleast not threatened to a serious level. Pakistan is a collapse waiting to happen.......it's only being shored up by US support and given the US track record of flip flop if not tomorrow then maybe 10-20 years later it is pretty conceivable that Pakistan will split up into smaller ineffectual states. Heck, half of the country has already split in just 60 years.

[Lurker]

I know ****- all about covert and overt operations' date=' and leave people who know about that sort of stuff to hold forth. All I know is if the masterminds behind this continue to breathe and plot further atrocities, all our outrage is a terrible mistake, because the only thing worse than doing nothing is to waste an inordinate amount of time talking about it.[/quote'] Well the reason why we are talking if because the people who should have known, and done the talking, did not. Everyone from politician to bureacrats to cops failed us as a nation. We need to talk, and keep talking, if not for us then future generation so we all dont get used to it. And no its not a cliche Dhondy.

[Lurker]

Why not? Just look at US and the Soviets - they had a covert war going on for decades and then one of them collapsed to the extent that the other one is not threatened by it anymore' date= or atleast not threatened to a serious level. Pakistan is a collapse waiting to happen.......it's only being shored up by US support and given the US track record of flip flop if not tomorrow then maybe 10-20 years later it is pretty conceivable that Pakistan will split up into smaller ineffectual states. Heck, half of the country has already split in just 60 years.

Now dont get me started on that Shwetabh. US-Russia-Afganistan affair has essentially brought us to where we are right now. Lets be honest here for a second. Take away Afganistan situation and tell me if Pakistan was as bad? Sure we faught wars, all overt by the way, but where were the terrorists in 50s, 60s and 70s?? USA started this whole issue of terrorism in the region, scrwed up Afganistan, then Pakistan..BD has obliged recently too and lo and behold South Asia is rotten to the core now :((

[The Outsider]

Covert Mossad style operations can AT BEST be successful in killing a few biggies, but thats about it.

Let's atleast start with those! We haven't done anything till now. An overt strike can be considered once we have destroyed atleast some of the top command structure and still don't see any reduction in strikes against our country. Obviously, in additon to these covert strikes we'll need to get our act together as well and not have unexploded bombs lying around the VT station one week after the horrible attacks because the enemy is bound to retaliate, so our defences must be up as well.

[The Outsider]

Now dont get me started on that Shwetabh. US-Russia-Afganistan affair has essentially brought us to where we are right now. Lets be honest here for a second. Take away Afganistan situation and tell me if Pakistan was as bad? Sure we faught wars, all overt by the way, but where were the terrorists in 50s, 60s and 70s?? USA started this whole issue of terrorism in the region, scrwed up Afganistan, then Pakistan..BD has obliged recently too and lo and behold South Asia is rotten to the core now :((

Yeah, it was that conflict which has given rise to the present menace, or atleast played a large part in it. But your comparison of the wars we fought in the 40s-70s to today's scenario is completely flawed because of nuclear weapons. Let's face it...there is no way Pakistan is going to win a conventional war against India and is bound to use the nuclear option as a last resort if not earlier. What you are saying is historically correct but the fact is we are where we are...we can't turn back the clock. Our best bet is to keep taking out the top brass of these organizations covertly and weaken them from the top down and wait for an imminent break up of Pakistan into small ineffectual states.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Now dont get me started on that Shwetabh. US-Russia-Afganistan affair has essentially brought us to where we are right now. Lets be honest here for a second. Take away Afganistan situation and tell me if Pakistan was as bad? Sure we faught wars, all overt by the way, but where were the terrorists in 50s, 60s and 70s?? USA started this whole issue of terrorism in the region, scrwed up Afganistan, then Pakistan..BD has obliged recently too and lo and behold South Asia is rotten to the core now :((

Lurker I think presence of USa is circumstantial once the ppigs from across the border realized they can't take on India openly this experiment was waiting to happen USA or no USA. These piglets have mushroomed everywhere even in the places where USA never ventured so to say that it was actually USA which was cause of it all is being naive. MIND you Russia to.. what freaking they had to gain from attacking Afghanistan . Mind you we were officially supporter of that stand of Russia . We can go on nit-picking which was the cause but fact remains these pigs have this streak in them where when they fail in open war they resort to ambush and all kind of terro tactics .. It has been going on since day one of islamic history..USA didn't have presence in arabia in 700 it happend even then ....

[Guest dada_rocks]

Radicalization of Pak and the "Bleed them by 1000 cuts" operations started well before the Soviet war by Gen. Zia-Ul-Haq

That's what i am getting nat Lurker thinks if nto for USa all wud have been fine. It's not the case ..Terror has been islamic tool since day one. All thoseearly days events of ambushing and beheading of caravans of versary comes to mind ..

[Dhondy]

Boom! All roads lead to... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/03/terrorism-nuclear-biological-obama-white-house

[punjabi_khota]

Boom! All roads lead to... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/03/terrorism-nuclear-biological-obama-white-house

"The incoming Barack Obama administration, which is to make proliferation of weapons of mass destruction a priority" :hysterical::hysterical:

[Guest dada_rocks]

Ladies and gentleman even at the height of peace talks this used to be my stand viz a viz Pakistan. it has been endorsed by B Raman.

A divided Pakistan, a bleeding Pakistan, a Pakistan ever on the verge of collapse without actually collapsing--that should be our objective till it stops using terrorism against India.

B Raman. Two steps the government can take immediately: http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081203&fname=indiapak&sid=2&pn=2 Step #1: Downgrade the diplomatic relations with Pakistan, terminate all economic relations including bilateral trade and communication links, suspend the confidence-building measures and the so-called peace process, terminate the talks on the gas pipeline from Iran through Pakistan and withdraw from the so-called joint counter-terrorism mechanism, which has been a farce forced on Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh by the US. Announce that these actions will remain in force till Pakistan acts against the LET and its terrorist leaders and infrastructure and hands over to India the terrorists wanted for trial in India. Step #2: Revive immediately the covert action capability of the Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW), which was wound up by Inder Gujral, when he was the Prime Minister in 1997, and empower it to impose prohibitive costs on Pakistan till it stops using jihadi terrorism against India. The R&AW imposed heavy costs on Pakistan for supporting the Khalistanis and should be able to do so now for its support to the LET and other jihadi terrorist organizations.

[Guest dada_rocks]

It really is a wonder that same people cud be so different. Power of indoctrination cud be this great one would have never known had it not been for this juxtaposition of contrast.