Short ball : Steady on lads and lasses, don’t be swayed too much…

[Ram]

A’right, it looks like it’s the fashion statement of the week (literally and figuratively) to say that India were ‘bounced’ out of the world cup. Wherever you turn, everyone’s saying the same thing – Commentators, Ex-India players, previous coaches, Cricinfo columnists, your colleague at the workplace, your neighbor’s dog....Literally EVERYONE! How much of it is matter and how much of it is masala? Admittedly, our handling of the short-ball in the matches against England and West Indies was one of the contributing factors to our defeat. But to blanket-brand our entire team as some sort of weaklings against short-pitched bowling based on a handful of overs of quick bowling is more dilute than fat-free milk. Its remarkable how 30 mins of commentary by two ex-players (Hussein and Bishop) whose perception of Indian cricket has never been what you call the best and brightest, can change the way the world views our team. You gotto understand where Hussein was coming from, he’s an ex-captain known for his sneaky mind games. If he were captain for that match, he would said exactly the same thing at the press-conference or when he was slipping the odd sledge at Raina, if he were fielding at point. So, always take what he says with a pinch of salt. For a moment, Hussein forgot that he was commentator supposed to give unbiased commentary and wore his captain’s hat on air. And as far as Bishop goes, though he does not have any history of animosity towards the Indian team as such, playing cricket for the Windies at an age when Indian team looked fragile and meek, you could excuse him if his brain was still crowded about that age-old stereotype of Indians not being good players of fast bowling. Times have moved on since then, obviously he hasn’t. Not our fault, nothing we can do about it. There are many reasons why we did this badly this WC guys, many – Injured players, key players out of form, fatigue due to excessive cricket and YES, inability to handle the short-pitched well. That does not make us a bad or a weak team. We have just won test match series’ in New Zealand, West Indies, England in the last few years and came close to doing so TWICE in Australia in the same period. You cannot do that unless you can face up to the chin music can you? So let us all take a deep breath, step back a bit and relax. Our team has done some fantastic things in the last few years, things that no other Indian team has done in our cricket history. Lets us not allow a solitary defeat in one tournament, to deflate the pride accumulated over years and years of good performance. Lets back this team because you know why? They deserve it, they’re THAT good. :isalute:

[The Outsider]

There are many reasons why we did this badly this WC guys, many – Injured players, key players out of form, fatigue due to excessive cricket and YES, inability to handle the short-pitched well. That does not make us a bad or a weak team. We have just won test match series’ in New Zealand, West Indies, England in the last few years and came close to doing so TWICE in Australia in the same period. You cannot do that unless you can face up to the chin music can you?

You've been making this point ad nauseum in one thread after another. We won/did well in those test series with Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag, and Ganguly in the line up. None of these batsmen featured here. Just because both teams played under the banner of team "India" doesn't mean they had the same personnel in them.

[Ram]

You've been making this point ad nauseum in one thread after another. We won/did well in those test series with Tendulkar' date=' Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag, and Ganguly in the line up. None of these batsmen featured here. Just because both teams played under the banner of team "India" doesn't mean they had the same personnel in them.[/quote'] The batting line-up in this WC is pretty similar to the one bar Sach and VVS and same is the case for our previous test match series against England. And what about the IPL in South Africa? Was Raina not one of the most successful batsman in that? Irrespective, I concede to the fact that my explanation of the point I am trying to make may not a 100% accurate, but that should not cloud the bigger message I am trying to convey – We’re NOT bad players of fast bowling. We have some of the best and most talented batsman in the world who can cope in any conditions and come up and trumps and my statement is backed by our results over the past several years (both in tests and ODIs) and will be backed in the future too, when these same young stars will continue to lead us to many more victories.

[CricketGirl]

:isalute:

[The Outsider]

The batting line-up in this WC is pretty similar to the one bar Sach and VVS and same is the case for our previous test match series against England.

Huh? Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman. The only common batsmen are Gambhir and Yuvraj. And the pitches in that series were not remotely as bouncy as the one at Lords.

[Mr. Wicket]

Huh? Sehwag' date=' Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman. The only common batsmen are Gambhir and Yuvraj. And the pitches in that series were not remotely as bouncy as the one at Lords.[/quote'] Actually, neither even played that series. Karthik and Jaffer opened, and we had the middle order of Dravid, Tendulkar, VVS and Gangu. So I really don't know what the hell Morris is on about here. Chalk and cheese. (Oh, and finding reasons to assume relatively experienced commentators suddenly lose all perspective and turn into biased cheerleaders for one freak moment that just happens to be when a bunch of batsmen come undone against short stuff? WTF? That's one of the most absurd, ridiculously flawed and speculative arguments I've come across. Or did I just stumble into a bizarro world and a neighbour's board?)

[Ram]

Huh? Sehwag' date=' Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman. The only common batsmen are Gambhir and Yuvraj. And the pitches in that series were not remotely as bouncy as the one at Lords.[/quote'] Not bouncy? Most of the players interviewed before and during the match were saying the this pitch was slower compared to other pitches in the square and the ones uses in the tournament. Besides, you're missing the bigger picture here - This same batting line-up has won in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. Did they not have fast bowlers then? So, instead of getting hung-up on a trivial technicality, lets focus on the overall message.

Actually, neither even played that series. Karthik and Jaffer opened, and we had the middle order of Dravid, Tendulkar, VVS and Gangu. So I really don't know what the hell Morris is on about here. Chalk and cheese. (Oh, and finding reasons to assume relatively experienced commentators suddenly lose all perspective and turn into biased cheerleaders for one freak moment that just happens to be when a bunch of batsmen come undone against short stuff? WTF?)

Oh Absolutely I stand by that statement. If you even remotely agree with Hussein that our inability to play short-pitched bowling was the MAIN reason why we were knocked out, then obviously you’ve turned a blind eye to other reasons and there are lots of them. Btw, if you feel Hussein wasn’t being biased in his comments, do you then think that our batsmen are not good players of short-pitched, quick bowling? So essentially what you're saying is that Suresh Raina, Gautam Gambhir and Rohit Sharma are incapable of playing quick, short-pitched bowling?

[Ram]

That's one of the most absurd, ridiculously flawed and speculative arguments I've come across. Or did I just stumble into a bizarro world and a neighbour's board?)

Not as ridiculously flawed as calling one of Australia's leading wicket-takers '****ing uselss', 'two-trick-pony' etc hey? :winky:

[The Outsider]

Actually, neither even played that series. Karthik and Jaffer opened, and we had the middle order of Dravid, Tendulkar, VVS and Gangu. So I really don't know what the hell Morris is on about here. Chalk and cheese. (Oh, and finding reasons to assume relatively experienced commentators suddenly lose all perspective and turn into biased cheerleaders for one freak moment that just happens to be when a bunch of batsmen come undone against short stuff? WTF? That's one of the most absurd, ridiculously flawed and speculative arguments I've come across. Or did I just stumble into a bizarro world and a neighbour's board?)

I thought he was talking about the series in India, but anyhow in both cases the batting line up bears no resemblance to the one we fielded in the WC this time. I agree with the last statement of yours - that we were poor against short pitch bowling was pretty obvious to see and accusing commentators of bias because they point it out is just ridiculous. If you think that the likes of Jadeja with their present footwork and technique against short bowling are going to work wonders on pitches with that extra zip(which might not matter much with the Patta Proliferation going on in the workd) then you are mistaken, Morris.

[Guest Gunner]

Suresh Raina cannot play short pitched bowling and Gambhir struggles. You cannot possibly ignore that fact.

[The Outsider]

Besides, you're missing the bigger picture here - This same batting line-up has won in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. Did they not have fast bowlers then? So, instead of getting hung-up on a trivial technicality, lets focus on the overall message.

:banghead: Can you explain how the batting line up we fielded in this world cup was remotely similar to any batting line up we have fielded ever in the test wins you are glorifying.

[Ram]

I thought he was talking about the series in India, but anyhow in both cases the batting line up bears no resemblance to the one we fielded in the WC this time.

Shwetabh, you must understand here that I did NOT say - 'We won in Australia, New Zealand and West Indies. So, you cannot brand Raina, Rohit and Gambhir as bad players of fast bowling', because obviously I know that these batsmen did not play in most of those series'. I invoked these test wins more to contest the popular claim that is bandied about that our players are not good players of pace and bounce. I think you should see the difference.

[Ram]

:banghead: Can you explain how the batting line up we fielded in this world cup was remotely similar to any batting line up we have fielded ever in the test wins you are glorifying.

Responded to this point in the previous post.

[Guest Gunner]

Shwetabh' date=' you must understand here that I did NOT say - 'We won in Australia, New Zealand and West Indies. So, you cannot brand Raina, Rohit and Gambhir as bad players of fast bowling', because obviously I know that these batsmen did not play in most of those series'. [b']I invoked these test wins more to contest the popular claim that is bandied about that our players are not good players of pace and bounce. I think you should see the difference.

I think the point here is Nasser pointed out that the team on the field was struggling against short pitched bowling and were technically found out. He did not say that throughout Indian history we have never produced batsmen who can play the short stuff. His point was merely relative to the game being played and you have actually generalized that to encompass Indian cricket.

[Mr. Wicket]

Let's see: I called him useless in tests and a two trick pony, based on actual performances with plenty of empirical data to back it up later in that thread. You suggested that Bishop's brain is still crowded based on past Indian stereotypes and that Hussain somehow got confused between captaining and commentating in a job he's been doing very well for a number of years now. There's a clear difference. Read your argument, then mine from that other thread, then try and work out the difference. (Or continue the mind-reading, given how good you seem to be at it based off your analyses of Hussain's and Bishop's grey matter and all their biases and thought processes.)

[riya]

M_M we are looking forward to bulid up a new team and find possible replacements for our classy middle order.The truth is that we couldn't find any .The reason we lost this WC is pretty obvious .We have to sort it out .No other way .

[Mr. Wicket]

Besides' date=' you're missing the bigger picture here - This same batting line-up has won in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. Did they not have fast bowlers then? So, instead of getting hung-up on a trivial technicality, lets focus on the overall message.[/quote'] Oh good grief, where do I begin? Batting lineup in South Africa in the test we won there: Jaffer, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Ganguly Batting lineup in Australia in the test we won there: Jaffer, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman Batting lineup in New Zealand in the test we won there: Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Yuvraj. Only in ONE of those tests we won abroad were there any batsmen from this T20 world tournament. That's hardly the same batting lineup. How on earth is pointing that out a "trivial technicality"?

[The Outsider]

Shwetabh' date=' you must understand here that I did NOT say - 'We won in Australia, New Zealand and West Indies. So, you cannot brand Raina, Rohit and Gambhir as bad players of fast bowling', because obviously I know that these batsmen did not play in most of those series'. I invoked these test wins more to contest the popular claim that is bandied about that our players are not good players of pace and bounce. I think you should see the difference.[/quote'] I've never heard any commentator worth his salt say that the likes of Tendulkar, Dravid, and Laxman cannot play the short ball. They might say Ganguly and Sehwag are not very comfortable against the short ball but invariably add the caveat that they have been successful despite that and have their own way of dealing with the short stuff. And anyone who saw Raina and Jadeja bat can safely say that they cannot play the short ball.

[Fontaine]

Suresh Raina cannot play short pitched bowling and Gambhir struggles. You cannot possibly ignore that fact.

Exactly. Raina has struggled again, and again, even on subcontinent pitches he looks like Ganguly when facing a bit of chin music from the ball. Gambhir at least tries and doesn't look afraid where as Raina just takes his eyes off the ball like a wuss. One of the Pathan's also, I think Yusuf has admitted before that he's not a good players of fast/bouncy deliveries.

[Guest Gunner]

Exactly. Raina has struggled again, and again, even on subcontinent pitches he looks like Ganguly when facing a bit of chin music from the ball. Gambhir at least tries and doesn't look afraid where as Raina just takes his eyes off the ball like a wuss. One of the Pathan's also, I think Yusuf has admitted before that he's not a good players of fast/bouncy deliveries.

Gambhir doesn't look afraid, just struggles and it is quite understandable considering the pitches in India. I expect Gambhir to sort that out quite soon, he is a testy little chap. I don't expect Yusuf to be able to play seriously quick short bowling, it is not his role. Yusuf plays his role in the ODI and T20 team perfectly. Yusuf will never play a test for India, though I love the guy's heart, pure gold.