nikred Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 In both the above mentioned cases...the women were unmistakenly masculine and hence the suspicion. I doubt there are too many cases where people are intersex without any signs showing. Specially once a person reaches the puberty age...there should be some signs. There are many masculine looking complete woman. It would be dangerous to classify or suspect people as intersexual just based on looks. Both the cases are sad and must be traumatic for them...but I doubt it was a sudden discovery.I am pretty sure they themselves must have wondered about it often. I am saying they might feel they are different but might struggle to just give a name to it. Most of these athletes might have been aware they are different but they might have never thought to be intersexual. It seems cruel...but I don't think they should be allowed to compete with women. Unfair? ...life is unfair... Have you seen short ,fat people at beauty contests ? Plain looking models?Short basketball players? dumb scientists?...life is unfair...just get on with life. They should not compete with women if they have male characteristics which give them added advantage over the other women, other wise I don't see why they should not compete as women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikred Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Intersex is the same as androgynous isn't it? It's believed that if a baby with such physical tendencies is born and if the parents disown it' date=' the hospitals call eunuchs to adopt the child.[/quote'] I think androgynous is a more general term, it can be used to describe a person who has has features of opposite sex too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 There are many masculine looking complete woman. It would be dangerous to classify or suspect people as intersexual just based on looks. But I doubt there are too many intersex people who don't look different.Masculine women may be intersex but very few feminine ones are. I am saying they might feel they are different but might struggle to just give a name to it. Most of these athletes might have been aware they are different but they might have never thought to be intersexual. agree ...but I am sure they had doubts... They should not compete with women if they have male characteristics which give them added advantage over the other women, other wise I don't see why they should not compete as women. It is their male carecteristics that give them the added advantage.If they didn't have these "male advantages" they wouldn't be intersexual.If the male hormones only gave a girl a moushtache,it would be fine ....but it usually does not happen so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomainK Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 In India...there have been cases were the eunuchs forcbilly take away the child.Parent often don't complain because of badnami or because they believe the child is better off with them. You hardly find them living normal lives with families. There are some exceptions like the Laxmi who had taken part in Sach ka saamna.Really sad. That is true. It's happens a lot in places like UP and Bihar. The moment Eunachs come to know of such a child (never takes time for the word to spread), they would come and demand custody of the child. If the parents want to keep the child, they get no help from police or society. The best police would do is to keep a post a couple of constables for a few days. But not forever. The Eunachs would come and forcibly take the child. The society never helps the parents. The Eunachs do that because they say that they believe that the child would never get fair treatment from the society. In reality, they always want their numbers to increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 That is true. It's happens a lot in places like UP and Bihar. The moment Eunachs come to know of such a child (never takes time for the word to spread), they would come and demand custody of the child. If the parents want to keep the child, they get no help from police or society. The best police would do is to keep a post a couple of constables for a few days. But not forever. The Eunachs would come and forcibly take the child. The society never helps the parents. The Eunachs do that because they say that they believe that the child would never get fair treatment from the society. In reality, they always want their numbers to increase. true....:(( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley's Girl Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 A lot of the blame for this media circus lies at the door of the president of Athletics South Africa, who was apparently aware of the fact that Caster is intersexed. He should never have allowed her to compete. Now her personal life is being dissected by everyone and his friend, and it could have been avoided. Nobody can possibly understand what Caster must be going through and any chance she had of living a relatively normal life had been taken away from her, which imo is the cruel thing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satishg Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 That is true. It's happens a lot in places like UP and Bihar. The moment Eunachs come to know of such a child (never takes time for the word to spread), they would come and demand custody of the child. If the parents want to keep the child, they get no help from police or society. The best police would do is to keep a post a couple of constables for a few days. But not forever. The Eunachs would come and forcibly take the child. The society never helps the parents. The Eunachs do that because they say that they believe that the child would never get fair treatment from the society. In reality, they always want their numbers to increase. Can you blame them for that? Given what they have to go through their entire life, i guess they feel secure only when the interact with the same kind of people. I am not justifying their actions of taking a child away from his/her parents, but i wont blame them if they do feel that they want their numbers to increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Can you blame them for that? Given what they have to go through their entire life' date=' i guess they feel secure only when the interact with the same kind of people. I am not justifying their actions of taking a child away from his/her parents, but i wont blame them if they do feel that they want their numbers to increase.[/quote'] They wouldn't need to do that if they didn't act the way they do.Eunuch have been a part of society in the past too.Some of them were pretty powerful too. They choose the life they do.Acting and dancing vulgar.Why don't they try to work like normal(or non eunuchs)people.It is just more convenient to go around in groups bullying and cursing people. The society discriminates....so it is up to them to stand up to society. Their life is as tough as the physically handicapped who go about their jobs doing their bit of hard work rather that bullying and cursing and of course kidnapping newborns. If they didn't try to act so differently and dress up so loudly ...people would give them a chance to live a normal life.Why would anyone like to employ a gaudy ,vulgar clapping person ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satishg Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 They wouldn't need to do that if they didn't act the way they do.Eunuch have been a part of society in the past too.Some of them were pretty powerful too. They choose the life they do.Acting and dancing vulgar.Why don't they try to work like normal(or non eunuchs)people.It is just more convenient to go around in groups bullying and cursing people. The society discriminates....so it is up to them to stand up to society. Their life is as tough as the physically handicapped who go about their jobs doing their bit of hard work rather that bullying and cursing and of course kidnapping newborns. If they didn't try to act so differently and dress up so loudly ...people would give them a chance to live a normal life.Why would anyone like to employ a gaudy ,vulgar clapping person ? hmm easier said than done Rads. I just dont know if anyone of us can judge how their life should be since we dont understand what it is to be like them. I think as times started changing so has the behaviour towards eunuchs. I am pretty sure they have not gone into this life style voluntarily, i mean given a choice they would definitely want to be like us, normal people trying to live in a normal society. But thats not to be. I don know much about them and so i cannot comment much on this but i am sure our behaviour towards them have forced them to have a lifestyle like this. They feel that behaving this way is the only option for them to move on with their life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 hmm easier said than done Rads. I just dont know if anyone of us can judge how their life should be since we dont understand what it is to be like them. I think as times started changing so has the behaviour towards eunuchs. I am pretty sure they have not gone into this life style voluntarily' date=' i mean given a choice they would definitely want to be like us, normal people trying to live in a normal society. But thats not to be. I don know much about them and so i cannot comment much on this but i am sure our behaviour towards them have forced them to have a lifestyle like this. They feel that behaving this way is the only option for them to move on with their life.[/quote'] What if some physically or Psychologically handicapped people ganged up to force people to give up their children,demand money and curse because they feel the society doesn't treat them well? What if these people came to your house and demanded that you part with your hard earned money (you will be shocked to know they have rates for this) just because some one in your family has given birth. They are not going to bear the pain ,they are not going to help you raise the child...but they want their share because they think it is their right. Will that be acceptable... If not, then why is it acceptable for eunuchs? They choose a more convenient life style just like some people choose to rob,extort or kidnap for a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satishg Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 What if some physically or Psychologically handicapped people ganged up to force people to give up their children,demand money and curse because they feel the society doesn't treat them well? What if these people came to your house and demanded that you part with your hard earned money (you will be shocked to know they have rates for this) just because some one in your family has given birth. They are not going to bear the pain ,they are not going to help you raise the child...but they want their share because they think it is their right. Will that be acceptable... If not, then why is it acceptable for eunuchs? They choose a more convenient life style just like some people choose to rob,extort or kidnap for a living. hmm when you put it that way, it is very hard to argue your statements :D anyway yea i guess they are also to be blamed partly. but something tells me that their lifestyle and the things they have to go through is so very different from our problems and stuff, so thats why i feel sorry for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 hmm when you put it that way, it is very hard to argue your statements :D anyway yea i guess they are also to be blamed partly. but something tells me that their lifestyle and the things they have to go through is so very different from our problems and stuff, so thats why i feel sorry for them. :icflove: agree with the later part of your post ...but that s life .So many people have been dealt worse cards.People have to learn to deal with it in more legitimate ways than the majority of the eunuchs do. Do you know there is a large number of eunuchs in India who are biologically normal males but have been physically casterated and live like eunuchs because they are too ashamed to lodge criminal cpmlaints.There was a programme on TV on this a few years back.:(( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satishg Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 ^^^that is a very sad state. Hmm as you said life is really unfair, you just got to deal with it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomainK Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 ^^^that is a very sad state. Hmm as you said life is really unfair' date=' you just got to deal with it!![/quote'] Nah, I don't think life is unfair. Everyone has his share of problems, but being happy is a state of mind. Unless you are physically deformed or you are in physical pain, you can find happiness in all problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 In both the above mentioned cases...the women were unmistakenly masculine and hence the suspicion. I doubt there are too many cases where people are intersex without any signs showing. Specially once a person reaches the puberty age...there should be some signs. Both the cases are sad and must be traumatic for them...but I doubt it was a sudden discovery.I am pretty sure they themselves must have wondered about it often. It seems cruel...but I don't think they should be allowed to compete with women. Unfair? ...life is unfair... Have you seen short ,fat people at beauty contests ? Plain looking models?Short basketball players? dumb scientists?...life is unfair...just get on with life. See the picture of the woman in this link, http://www.mirror.co.uk/life-style/real-life/2009/09/14/i-feel-for-caster-semenya-i-am-a-woman-with-male-chromosomes-115875-21671255/ She is intersexed and totally female. It really depends on the level of suppression of testosterone, In some cases the person is pure estrogen but in the teenage years the internal testicles (which are present shockingly) become cancerous , thats how they come to know that the person is intersexed. So physical attributes have nothing to do with it. This is a far more cruel hand to deal with than anything we can imagine. In a society with two gender classifications, you are not on the list. I can't think of anything more cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Intersex is the same as androgynous isn't it? It's believed that if a baby with such physical tendencies is born and if the parents disown it' date= the hospitals call eunuchs to adopt the child. Not really, androgyny is a physiological impossibility from what I read. It effectively means a hermaphrodite which is not usually the case as no one has a fully developed male and female sexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 A lot of the blame for this media circus lies at the door of the president of Athletics South Africa' date=' who was apparently aware of the fact that Caster is intersexed. He should never have allowed her to compete. Now her personal life is being dissected by everyone and his friend, and it could have been avoided. Nobody can possibly understand what Caster must be going through and any chance she had of living a relatively normal life had been taken away from her, which imo is the cruel thing here.[/quote'] This is exactly my view too. The president of ASA took away her choice and turned her life into a joke. What a pity. I am reading that ANC is now trying to clock some cheap political mileage based on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley's Girl Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 This is exactly my view too. The president of ASA took away her choice and turned her life into a joke. What a pity. I am reading that ANC is now trying to clock some cheap political mileage based on this. They are a POLITICAL PARTY after all, it's to be expected. As far as I know ASA has been summoned by parliament to explain the decision of not sacking their president, but I won't hold my breath for the decision to be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 They are a POLITICAL PARTY after all' date=' it's to be expected. As far as I know ASA has been summoned by parliament to explain the decision of not sacking their president, but I won't hold my breath for the decision to be changed.[/quote'] And then the whole mumbo-jumbo about racism in the IAAF will start. Its a shame that south africans are proving to be far more racist than anyone else in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley's Girl Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 And then the whole mumbo-jumbo about racism in the IAAF will start. Its a shame that south africans are proving to be far more racist than anyone else in the end. You got that right. Racism is a word that is used way too often around here. As soon as someone runs out of arguments or defences they just fall back on the old and patient racism claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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