Loss of Form

[graphic23]

I think its fair to say that Sachin had a loss of form between 2005-2007 (In test matches). And Dravid had his worst run in test cricket between December '06 - December '08. I think the sudden loss of form does have a similarity in both cases. in Sachin's case, I seriously think that he was reinventing himself as a batsman. Changing your batting style does take a lot of time, and I think his innings in Sydney in '04 is a testament to that, and in Dravid's case, he's been a lot more positive in his strokeplay, and bats more nonchalantly than he did in his hey-day. (e.g. NZ, SL, and even in Mohali). And I believe these were visible in his dismissals starting from the tour to Australia in 07-08. Sri Lanka was just a freaky tour to everyone concerned (barring freaks like Sehwag and to a certain extent, Gambhir). Thats why on either side of their troughs, they have been pretty consistent. whereas folks like Lara and Sehwag, who've never changed their style will have a similar rate of conversion and consistency throughout their careers. So what do you think? And what is better - sticking to the same batting style throughout your career, or changing yourself as the team and time need it? Discuss.

[patriot]

Against major teams (without Zimbabwe & Bangladesh) Period T I NO Runs HS Ave 100s 50s 0s 1989-1996 44 68 7 3044 179 49.90 10 14 3 1997-2002 51 86 7 4831 217 61.15 18 18 6 2003-2009 50 87 9 3424 241* 43.89 8 18 4 I see Sachin's career in above 3 phases. 1) From debut to 1996/97. 2) 97-2002 - his peak years when he was batting as well has anyone in the game ever has 3) 2003-2009 - his worst phase. Is it a coincidence that his worst phase is at a time when he reinvents his style ? For over a third of his career ( 50 tests) , SRT averages about 43 against non -minnow sides. And these are runs acquired at a slow griding pace - not like what you would expect from dominating great players. And this too in a phase in cricket where hordes of FTBS's have nudged 50+ averges. Lara..started with a flourish and ended with a flourish. For all of Ponting's so called greatness he is still 500 runs short of Lara's run tally although he has played the same number of innings. Sehwag is well...Sehwag. Once a lifetime player.

[Mr. Wicket]

Here's a q patriot: Given that a lot of Sehwag's game is built on his fantastic hand-eye coordination (Sachin in his youth was very similar, given how quickly he could pick up the length of a delivery then), do you think he will go through a similar 'weak' phase in the future as his eyes and reflexes start to deteriorate? Do you think he'll be able to adapt and change style then with the same success as Tendulkar (who initially after changing his style struggled a fair bit, but in the last two years has been a lot more fluent and consistent than he was in the 2003-2005 period)?

[Mr. Wicket]

Another point I will challenge in part (not entirely, as I think there's a fair bit of truth as well). Your comment on SRT playing at a "slow griding pace" is pushing it IMO. His overall test strike rate between the period 1 Jan 2003 and present is 53.06, compared to a career s/r of 54.11. Not a huge change, and it's notable that his strike rate against Australia (over 14 tests) since 03 has been 57.15. That said, I hadn't realized (until doing a stats query just now to check this out) that his strike rates in that same period against England, RSA and Sri Lanka are all sub-50. BTW, a further comment re. Tendulkar's fluency and form in the last 2 years: his strike rate in 03 as per CI was 39.63. His strike rate in 04 was 56, then dropped to 44 in '05. It's been ranging between 53 and 57 since then, however - hence why I don't think it's correct to set the last 6 years as a 'slump', rather the 03-05/6 period as a real slump and the last couple of years as what seems like a new phase where he's re-emerging with more trademark fluency and consistency.

[graphic23]

Against major teams (without Zimbabwe & Bangladesh) Period T I NO Runs HS Ave 100s 50s 0s 1989-1996 44 68 7 3044 179 49.90 10 14 3 1997-2002 51 86 7 4831 217 61.15 18 18 6 2003-2009 50 87 9 3424 241* 43.89 8 18 4 I see Sachin's career in above 3 phases. 1) From debut to 1996/97. 2) 97-2002 - his peak years when he was batting as well has anyone in the game ever has 3) 2003-2009 - his worst phase. Is it a coincidence that his worst phase is at a time when he reinvents his style ? For over a third of his career ( 50 tests) , SRT averages about 43 against non -minnow sides. And these are runs acquired at a slow griding pace - not like what you would expect from dominating great players. And this too in a phase in cricket where hordes of FTBS's have nudged 50+ averges.

Fair point, re: his stats between 03-09. While I wont give much significance to his S/R, I do think his lower average has to do with him trying to bat differently than he used to (for example, cutting out the cover drive in Sydney, not hooking/pulling a single delivery in England). When you are trying to change your approach, I think you do tend to try a few different things, avoid a few shots, etc. And his response to the short ball starting from Australia, has been rather excellent. If you break down the stats further more, 2003-2005, 2005-2007, 2007-Present, the following numbers come out: 2003-2005: 43.55 (S/R: 49.52) (1 Jan 2003-1 Jan 2005) 2005-2007: 34.59 (S/R: 46.12) (1 Jan 2005-1 Aug 2007, I think thats roughly the end of England tour) 2007-2009: 53.52 (S/R: 57.81) (1 Aug 2007- Present) My theory of his starting to reinvent his batting style in 03-04, and generally kinda struggling his way through 05-07, and from 2007 Paki tour, being very consistent (and the figures are closer to his career figures) is correct. I think similar results might be seen for Dravid as well. I'd attribute this development not as a biproduct of his loss of form, but rather as a reason.

Lara..started with a flourish and ended with a flourish. For all of Ponting's so called greatness he is still 500 runs short of Lara's run tally although he has played the same number of innings. Sehwag is well...Sehwag. Once a lifetime player.

Yes, and I think a batsman who can play like Lara (quickly, attackingly) and play like Dravid shows a greater versatility than following the same game plan through your career - just riding out your troughs, and cashing in on your peaks. And that is the reason why Tendulkar has had a greater amount of consistency than Lara. And Lara at his best, can wreak havoc that can go unparalleled (although Sehwag makes a case that cannot be ignored). [Edit: Just saw Salil's last post. My stats are supportive of that theory]

[Gambit]

In fact, 2004(after Pak tour)-2006(before RSA tour) was probably Tendulkar's worst extended period. 25 innings@31 with 1 ton. Tendulkar's style changing experiment started after the Gabba when Bucknor gave him LBW in 2003. It briefly worked for him as he racked up 241*,194* but then injuries(tennis elbow) and him playing in a fashion that did not come naturally to him led to poor scores. He did have the odd sparkle 55 v Aus at Mumbai but overall, his batting was struggling. Since the 2007 World Cup, he's had a resurgence - 45 innings @ 51 with 6 tons. Sehwag's worst run thus far lasted from 2006-2008. 24 innings @ 28 with 1 ton.

[Mr. Wicket]

And Lara at his best' date= can wreak havoc that can go unparalleled (although Sehwag makes a case that cannot be ignored).

Rubbish. Lara at his best could wreak havoc. But to say it was unparalleled sounds like what I'd expect from a star-eyed Yuvraj fan who's just seen his hero slog sweep two sixes and then compares him to Tendulkar. I've seen Lara at his best on a number of occasions - it is nothing to compare to either Adam Gilchrist or Sehwag at their best. Or even Jayasuriya on a few rare occasions (anyone else remember watching that truly epic Faisalabad double-hundred v. Pak, where he had a 100+ run partnership w/ Fernando at over a run a ball - and scored pretty much every run himself minus one single?) Lara was a superb batsman, but I would never compare him to the sheer force Sehwag and Gilchrist especially could be. Or even Richards on some occasions.

[Gambit]

And that is the reason why Tendulkar has had a greater amount of consistency than Lara. And Lara at his best' date=' can wreak havoc that can go unparalleled (although Sehwag makes a case that cannot be ignored).[/quote'] The only reason Sachin matched and stayed ahead of Lara was his consistency. Lara used to rack up ginormous innings followed by not much. Sehwag is similar in that regard. Since his 201*, it took him 22 innings to make another ton. He's had similar runs in the past as well.

[graphic23]

Actually, Salil the only reason I opted for that hyperbole (re: Lara's wreaking havoc) is because of his amazing performance vs. Muralitharan in Sri Lanka. It was not to say that others (e.g. Sachin) cannot play such innings but that tour v. Murali was a phenomenal. Sachin's assault vs. Warne is also something that must be brought up - particularly in Mumbai in the tour game, and in Chennai, on a turning pitch with Warney bowling 'round the pitch.

[patriot]

Salil , We in India, always give our players a much longer rope - which is good when you don't have backup. Hayden I am sure went through a shorter bad phase than Dravid but was still forced to retire. Dravid is back in business and has scored like 4 tons in quick time. You think Hayden would not have been able to do it ( had he gotten the kind of rope Dravid did ? ) and prolong his test career? He dominated IPL last year BIG time -as did Adam Gilchrist - a Sehwag kind of hand eye coordination freak. Now these are 38+ yr old "buddhas". At the age of 36 Gilly played the most destructive knock in a WC final. Sehwag is still only 31. Sure, hand eye coordination will wane with age. It will happen to Sehwag too. But he will carry on in the same vein purely because of his attitude.

[Mr. Wicket]

Actually, Salil the only reason I opted for that hyperbole (re: Lara's wreaking havoc) is because of his amazing performance vs. Muralitharan in Sri Lanka. It was not to say that others (e.g. Sachin) cannot play such innings but that tour v. Murali was a phenomenal. Sachin's assault vs. Warne is also something that must be brought up - particularly in Mumbai in the tour game, and in Chennai, on a turning pitch with Warney bowling 'round the pitch.

Sehwag did much the same v. Murali. Actually, Sehwag did worse. See the double hundred last year, and the near-triple this time. What about Gilchrist, coming in at 3 (and facing a huge deficit) in Kandy in 2004, then slaughtering Murali and friends on Murali's home turf to belt 144 at a s/r of 77? Gilchrist could take apart spin just as brutally (remember the hundreds in Mumbai and Bangalore in 01 and 04 respectively with ridiculous strike rates), and then pace. http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63978.html Donald, Ntini, Kallis (back when he had pace) and Nel. 204 off 213 at Jo'burg is ****ing amazing. What a murder that was.

[Gambit]

Salil - We in India always give out players a much longer rope - which is good when you don't have backup. Hayden I am sure went through a shorter bad phase than Dravid but was still forced to retire. Dravid is back in business and has score like 4 tons in quick time. You think Hayden would not have been able to do it and prolong his test career? He dominated IPL last year BIG time -as did Adam Gilchrist - a Sehwag kind of hand eye coordination freak. Now these are 38+ yr old "buddhas". At the age of 36 Gilly played the most destructive knock in a WC final. Sehwag is still only 31. Sure' date= hand eye coordination will wane with age. It will happen to Sehwag too. But he will carry on in the same vein purely because of his attitude.

Actually that's wrong and a very big misconception. Adam Gilchrist between the start of Ashes 05 and the start Ashes 06 had the following numbers: 516 runs from 16 tests(24 innings)@22! Hayden between BG trophy 2004 and end of 4th test Ashes '05 16 tests 842 runs@30 Ponting between Nov 2000 and 3rd test 2001 Ashes series: 11 tests 319 runs@19 Would post more examples but gotta rush.

[graphic23]

Sehwag did much the same v. Murali. Actually, Sehwag did worse. See the double hundred last year, and the near-triple this time. What about Gilchrist, coming in at 3 (and facing a huge deficit) in Kandy in 2004, then slaughtering Murali and friends on Murali's home turf to belt 144 at a s/r of 77? Gilchrist could take apart spin just as brutally (remember the hundreds in Mumbai and Bangalore in 01 and 04 respectively with ridiculous strike rates), and then pace. http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63978.html Donald, Ntini, Kallis (back when he had pace) and Nel. 204 off 213 at Jo'burg is ****ing amazing. What a murder that was.

We were comparing Lara to Tendulkar :hitler:, not Sehwag (if you read my post, I had suggested Sehwag as a competitor :P ). Gilly is a good point though. I had not thought of his attack v. SA (or the Murali one, which I frankly didn't know about :dontknow: ). But also, Gilly even when he had hit the 57-ball century vs. England at Perth, had a rough time otherwise - i.e. he was pretty inconsistent. Sehwag, on the other hand, has been pretty awesome since his come back in January '08. I think the only blips have been against NZ (and the 2nd/3rd test vs. SA last year). He was excellent vs. Australia in Australia, Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka, vs. England in India, vs. Australia in India, and recently, vs. Sri Lanka in India.

[Chandan]

Here's a q patriot: Given that a lot of Sehwag's game is built on his fantastic hand-eye coordination (Sachin in his youth was very similar, given how quickly he could pick up the length of a delivery then), do you think he will go through a similar 'weak' phase in the future as his eyes and reflexes start to deteriorate? Do you think he'll be able to adapt and change style then with the same success as Tendulkar (who initially after changing his style struggled a fair bit, but in the last two years has been a lot more fluent and consistent than he was in the 2003-2005 period)?

I think its fair to say that Sachin had a loss of form between 2005-2007 (In test matches). And Dravid had his worst run in test cricket between December '06 - December '08. I think the sudden loss of form does have a similarity in both cases. in Sachin's case, I seriously think that he was reinventing himself as a batsman. Changing your batting style does take a lot of time, and I think his innings in Sydney in '04 is a testament to that, and in Dravid's case, he's been a lot more positive in his strokeplay, and bats more nonchalantly than he did in his hey-day. (e.g. NZ, SL, and even in Mohali). And I believe these were visible in his dismissals starting from the tour to Australia in 07-08. Sri Lanka was just a freaky tour to everyone concerned (barring freaks like Sehwag and to a certain extent, Gambhir). Thats why on either side of their troughs, they have been pretty consistent. whereas folks like Lara and Sehwag, who've never changed their style will have a similar rate of conversion and consistency throughout their careers. So what do you think? And what is better - sticking to the same batting style throughout your career, or changing yourself as the team and time need it? Discuss.

Sorry Graphic, but I disagree to the bolded part in your post. How easily you all could forget that Sachin had a career threatening injury in June 2004--tennis elbow, which he got operated on in 2005 and while trying to adjust himself to that in his hand, he suffered another injury, the shoulder and bicep injury in 2006, which he got operated upon in 2006, and had to miss WI series because of that. It is fair to say that it took him few series to get adjusted to these injuries which obviously prevent him from playing certain shots and only because of these he had to find new ways to score.

[Mr. Wicket]

Sure' date=' hand eye coordination will wane with age. It will happen to Sehwag too. But he will carry on in the same vein purely because of his attitude.[/quote'] Gilchrist and Richards had a similar attitude. Gilchrist's consistency also really went down the tubes after a certain point, starting with the 05 Ashes. His strike rate went down a few notches (though still very brutal), but in his last 28 games (from the 05 Ashes onwards), he averaged 30.21 with a similar batting attitude, compared to his career average of 47.60 and an average that at the time was in the 50s. Richards similarly had a huge slump at the end. He kept up his same gung ho attitude of trying to hit apart bowlers, and in the last 3 years of his career averaged 36.22 (as opposed to a 50+ career average) over 19 games with just 1 hundred that came against India. I don't think it's possible to conclude that keeping the same attitude as reflexes wane will yield the same results. Tendulkar managed to adjust - he took some time, but finally managed - and these days he's still scoring runs at a very productive rate though with a different method at times. I expect Sehwag will reach a point where he too will need to adjust or face a drop in his consistency/performance much like Gilchrist and IVAR.

[graphic23]

Sorry Graphic, but I disagree to the bolded part in your post. How easily you all could forget that Sachin had a career threatening injury in June 2004--tennis elbow, which he got operated on in 2005 and while trying to adjust himself to that in his hand, he suffered another injury, the shoulder and bicep injury in 2006, which he got operated upon in 2006, and had to miss WI series because of that. It is fair to say that it took him few series to get adjusted to these injuries which obviously prevent him from playing certain shots and only because of these he had to find new ways to score.

Oh sure, Chandan. I dont disregard his injuries at all. Even he was called back from injury when we were getting beaten by the Aussies in '04, he played an amazing innings at Mumbai. During the English tour to India in '06, he was struggling, he missed the entire WI tour due to injury. But my point regarding his change in style stands inspite of the injuries that he suffered. But the injuries are a good point to bring up because neither Lara nor Sehwag (or Gilly, Salil) have suffered as many injuries as Tendulkar has. The main point I was making re: Sachin and Dravid, was that their adaptability was on a different level to other batsman during their generation. Salil made a good point in another thread(forget which one), where he noted that placing Sachin or Dravid in IPL will not yield failures, whereas taking folks like Manish Pandey, Rohit Sharma, or Yusuf Pathan, in our test team would be a formula for failure. That sort of adaptability stems from their versatility as batsmen.

[patriot]

Gilchrist and Richards had a similar attitude. Gilchrist's consistency also really went down the tubes after a certain point, starting with the 05 Ashes. His strike rate went down a few notches (though still very brutal), but in his last 28 games (from the 05 Ashes onwards), he averaged 30.21 with a similar batting attitude, compared to his career average of 47.60 and an average that at the time was in the 50s. Richards similarly had a huge slump at the end. He kept up his same gung ho attitude of trying to hit apart bowlers, and in the last 3 years of his career averaged 36.22 (as opposed to a 50+ career average) over 19 games with just 1 hundred that came against India. I don't think it's possible to conclude that keeping the same attitude as reflexes wane will yield the same results. Tendulkar managed to adjust - he took some time, but finally managed - and these days he's still scoring runs at a very productive rate though with a different method at times. I expect Sehwag will reach a point where he too will need to adjust or face a drop in his consistency/performance much like Gilchrist and IVAR.

You are absolutely right. Sehwag will undoubtedly go through the same at the sunset of his career. But there is still another 5 years to go before we can start thinking about that. Sachin changed his game when he was only about 30 ( ?) before which his superb attacking game had a classical touch to it and had drawn comparisons to Bradman et al . If not because of some major injury,I shudder to think why one would change their best game in the midst of the peak of one's career just to be able to eke out consistency towards the f.ag end of the career.

[Mr. Wicket]

Salil made a good point in another thread(forget which one)' date=' where he noted that placing Sachin or Dravid in IPL will not yield failures, whereas taking folks like Manish Pandey, Rohit Sharma, or Yusuf Pathan, in our test team would be a formula for failure. That sort of adaptability stems from their versatility as batsmen.[/quote'] Off topic slightly, but don't put Rohit in that bracket. He is not one of the cowlasher choudhurys, and in fact has a fantastic f/c record and a technique and game well suited to f/c cricket. I will not be surprised if he winds up a much better f/c and hopefully test cricketer than a limited over player.

[patriot]

Again Salil , I have not watched cricket for as many years as yourself, nor am I as knowledgeable about the history of the game - but my views coincide with the experts here, who, in comparing Lara with SRT say that Lara has played his best game for a longer period. SRT's best game was a dream - but it wasn't a long dream. And there is nothing exceptional in his game for over 1/3rd of his career that half a dozen others have not been able to achieve. Do listen to Ravi Shastri's comment in the clip below. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=490978601065903138#

[graphic23]

Off topic slightly, but don't put Rohit in that bracket. He is not one of the cowlasher choudhurys, and in fact has a fantastic f/c record and a technique and game well suited to f/c cricket. I will not be surprised if he winds up a much better f/c and hopefully test cricketer than a limited over player.

Perhaps he has all those you've mentioned Salil, but as long as there is no desire to make runs I dont quite see how he will succeed. And regardless of the format, your temperament will go some distance in getting you some runs, and I have not seen that in Rohit since that 66 vs. Australia at Sydney. I am hopeful of a good F/C record as well.