Why do our bowlers lose pace all of a sudden

[The Outsider]

This is not accurate ... there are far more bowlers that did very well on Indian grounds than those 4 ..... heres the full list http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;host=6;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=3;qualmin2=5;qualval1=matches;qualval2=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;host=6;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=5;qualmin2=20;qualval1=matches;qualval2=wickets;spanmin1=01+Jan+1980;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling A much more relevant list - your criteria were too lax, not allowing for the qualification of at least 2 tours to India. I had missed out on Walsh and Holding. Botham did superbly in one test.

[Ram]

Dhondy, I will call it garbage till you can quote more than a handful examples from the "well equipped" races who have bowled at sustained pace and kept themselves any more fit than their subcontinent counterparts. The likes of Lillee and Thompson were spanked all around the subcontinent so much so that they even gave up touring and had all sorts of stress fractures that you are alluding to Imran and Waqar. Mind you, this was in the number of tours you can count on one hand. Gillespie, Lee and Clark - all from the well equipped race - had their careers finished off after touring India. I am not doubting your medical expertise, but merely asking you to substantiate your hypothesis. Don't take it as an offense.

The question is not whether any sort of fast bowlers, let alone those from the subcontinent, are physically equipped to handle the harsh conditions that confront them here. Its whether physical and genetic make up has got anything to do with fast bowlers countries like Australia, West Indies being able to bowl with sustained pace through prolonged periods of their career, while their Indian counterparts wilt away after promising starts. And we have seen enough instances where White and West Indian quicks have been able to keep their pace up through the length of their career. That is the crux the argument, not who is effective and who isnt. Guys like Brett Lee, Andrew Flintoff and Shane Bond still manage to bowl genuinely fast, even though they're well into their 30s. Come on Shwetabh, dont you see the obvious here? To totally deny that genetics has got nothing to do whatsoever to our, for that matter, other Asian countries' ability to produce genuine quicks is like searching for the sun on a hot summer afternoon.

[The Outsider]

http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;host=6;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=5;qualmin2=20;qualval1=matches;qualval2=wickets;spanmin1=01+Jan+1980;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling A much more relevant list - your criteria were too lax, not allowing for the qualification of at least 2 tours to India. I had missed out on Walsh and Holding. Botham did superbly in one test.

The corresponding list for Indian bowlers : http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1;host=6;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=5;qualmin2=20;qualval1=matches;qualval2=wickets;spanmin1=01+Jan+1980;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling Not too shabby, is it?

[Sooda]

I think Shewtabh is trying to say that the reason why our pacers cant sustain their pace IS the harsh conditions, after they find they get little reward bowling their hearts out at good pace. In that heat etc, cant blame em. Do the same in Aus/SAf and theyll pick up wickets, or at least see the ball do more. Would Lee (who is one hell of a lion hearted bowler) still be steaming in at 90+ if he had to bowl on our pattas? In a way bowling on flat pitches needs a bit of extra pace as there is no seam and swing to take adv of. The 'bowling long spells in FC Cricket' point is a good one and very true in our case when bowlers are often sent effectively straight to the national team from U19's .. maybe with one season of Ranji cricket at the most. There the rhythm factor and also just being able to experiment and learn the trade in domestic cricket and not under the harsh spotlight of internationals would help loads So why ARE Paks able to produce genuine quicks and we arent, Soil types and hence wickets are the same right? Or are pitches greener on the other side (:hehe:) Waqar did get stress fractured and his pace cut down but was still fast till the mid 90's ish. AND he had swing. reverse swing and cutter to fall back on. Same with Wasim. Not genetics as they are built the same. So is it just tradition and culture? Yes I know pace does not necessarily matter line and length etc is better but it would be nice to have a good fast indian bowler.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Guest BossBhai]

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[The Outsider]

The question is not whether any sort of fast bowlers, let alone those from the subcontinent, are physically equipped to handle the harsh conditions that confront them here. Its whether physical and genetic make up has got anything to do with fast bowlers countries like Australia, West Indies being able to bowl with sustained pace through prolonged periods of their career, while their Indian counterparts wilt away after promising starts.

They're related. It's very difficult for a bowler of any genetic make up to sustain that kind of pace over a prolonged period on the kind of pitches in India add to it the heat and humidity.

And we have seen enough instances where White and West Indian quicks have been able to keep their pace up through the length of their career. That is the crux the argument, not who is effective and who isnt. Guys like Brett Lee, Andrew Flintoff and Shane Bond still manage to bowl genuinely fast, even though they're well into their 30s.

Where have they been able to sustain their pace bowling on pattas. Even Shoaib Akhtar can bowl genuinely fast today, so can Mohammed Sami. Waqar, even after his back surgery, used to touch 90 mph regularly. What happened to Brett Lee after playing one, just one, series in India? Kapoot! Finished! What happened to Shane Bond and Andrew Flintoff despite not being subjected to the constant torture our bowlers are subjected to? Khallas!

Come on Shwetabh, dont you see the obvious here? To totally deny that genetics has got nothing to do whatsoever to our, for that matter, other Asian countries' ability to produce genuine quicks is like searching for the sun on a hot summer afternoon.

No, I don't see the "obvious" here. Our bowlers have been fast when they have arrived on the scene. It's the constant diet of playing ODIs and T20s on pattas which results in them losing pace. It will happen to any bowler of any genetic make up.

[I_India]

It's a bit of everything I think. Genetics definitely plays a part but the problem gets compounded by lack of proper diet and good fitness regime. For example....I go gym regularly and work hard and watch what I eat. Then there are black guys in the gym......some of them are able to do less pull ups, reps weights etc than me but their muscles are HUGEEEEEEEE! That could be explained by them taking supplements and stuff that I don't touch but I think it's more than that. Genetically I feel they have a head start when it comes to muscle building and maintaining a lean body. I am convinced that I have to work harder than them to maintain a good body :training1::training1::training1: I am not complaining or b****ing but just trying to be real and honest. Anyway my aim has always been to be the best my body can be with the cards nature dealt me :--D I agree with Dhondy about thin legs part as well. You all make valid points. So like I said it's bit of everything. Point is not to ever give up. Sometimes a big heart can overcome bad cards that nature might deal you.

[The Outsider]

Yes my list was showing the full list pretty much the criteria were to just weed out the one match wonders ... But 2 tours criteria + 20 wkts will leave out quite a few bowlers as tours to India prior to us becomming a economic powerhouse ( last 10-15 yrs) were few and far inbetween. even then if you remove your Jan-1-1980 cutoff date you will get a lot bigger list .... http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;host=6;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=5;qualmin2=20;qualval1=matches;qualval2=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

I said living memory and anyways before '75 or so our batting was shaky to say the least, so it won't give any true measure.

[The Outsider]

if you look at the avgs its quite shabby.

Only, Kapil and Srinath amongst them are considered world class bowlers and both have very good averages. You make the other soormas bowl on our pattas for their entire careers and except for the truly world class bowlers like Walsh, McGrath, Marshall etc. and they'll either cut down pace or be left injured.

[Ram]

No, I don't see the "obvious" here. Our bowlers have been fast when they have arrived on the scene. It's the constant diet of playing ODIs and T20s on pattas which results in them losing pace. It will happen to any bowler of any genetic make up.

So in short, you're claiming that if we reduce the workloads of T20/ODI cricket and produce bowler friendly wickets, then our bowlers should be able to sustain their pace for longer periods of time in their careers and that is all there's to it?

[The Outsider]

So in short' date=' you're claiming that if we reduce the workloads of T20/ODI cricket and produce bowler friendly wickets, then our bowlers should be able to sustain their pace for longer periods of time in their careers and that is all there's to it?[/quote'] Yes.

[The Outsider]

Steyn is scheduled to play the tour in India followed by the IPL. He is bowling in the mid to upper 140s consistently at the moment, touching 150. ICF $10 million says either you will see him bowl in the 130s on average or he will get injured before the T20 WC.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[MUMBAISKIPPER]

physical limitations perhaps...also the willingness,passion and desire to bowl fast in the long run can matter a lot

[The Outsider]

That would be valid if our soormas were even remotely as good overseas as those who bowled in India ... http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=5;qualmin2=20;qualval1=matches;qualval2=wickets;team=6;template=results;type=bowling heres the one for our bowlers outside Asia ... http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;continent=1;continent=3;continent=4;continent=5;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=5;qualmin2=20;qualval1=matches;qualval2=wickets;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

That's too simplistic a way to look at things. Our batting away from home has been shambles on a lot of times, forcing bowlers to bowl defensively without penetration. Just look at the change in Kumble's fortunes as an example of this once we started scoring away from home. Secondly, the lack of a good third fast bowling option has allowed the opposition batsmen to get stuck in and score heavily in the middle order. Kapil, Srinath, and Prasad used to regularly get a few top order wickets only to watch trundlers or spinners on a first/second day pitch get pasted by a well settled in middle order. Anyhow, the main discussion here is not whether our bowlers are as good as McGrath or Marshall, which I am not saying they are anyways. It's whether the reason for our bowlers not to be able to sustain pace over genuine lengths of time is genetic or induced by an overdose of ODIs/T20s on horrific pattas. If it's indeed genetic no one believing that theory should hesitate in having a shot at my $10 million on whether Steyn will survive the Indian tour and IPL without dropping pace or getting injured, because he surely looks to be from a well equipped race.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[yoda]

One can't discount race/genes when it comes to athletics. Look at the NBA for example. White players are still learning how to fly and dunk with the rare exception here and there. That said, one wonders why the English who are also of a "western" race have historically produced rather mediocre pacers. Also the windies of the current generation seem to be rather mediocre.

[The Outsider]

well the IPL is just a recent phenomenon ( 2 yrs ). But our fast bowling woes go much beyond that ... in my opinion its simply because we never had a culture of fast bowling untill recently. This is the single biggest reason why we dont produce quicks ... genetics ' date=' weather and the general perception that only spinners can thrive on our wickets make it that much more harder.[/quote'] Some of the above reasons are valid, but they are more for us not producing fast bowlers in the first place. What's being discussed is the reason they are not able to sustain the pace they come on to the scene with initially. And the reasons for that are not enough conditioning in first class cricket, surfeit of ODIs and T20s on brutal pattas rather than genetics. Genetics is not stopping Sami, Malinga, or Akhtar from clocking in the 90s consistently. Do they get injured? Sure they do, but so do bowlers from all races - Taylor, Lee, Flintoff, Bond etc. etc.

[Guest BossBhai]

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