The Tendulkar Fatigue Syndrome

[riya]

Dhondy,could u exlain me how to find that player to player statistics.Just wanted to know.Moreover can we use this method to find the runs scored against that particular bowler in each match.Thank you.

[Dhondy]

Shwetabh, I think you are incorrectly interpreting my efforts at objectivity somehow as an attempt to gee up Sehwag at the expense of Sachin. Far from it. You know well that statistical points can only be made forcefully through comparison. I could have equally used Ponting or Lara, in fact would love to do so one day, time allowing. Would be great if somebody could help out. Pardner? Help karega kya? Ball by ball head to head of Lara Punter Sachin v McGrath, Shoaib, Donald? Lurker, I fnd it quite strange and quite humbling to realise that you are reading my intentions like a book, despite having co-posted for only 3 years, unlike Shwets and co here, who have known me for twice that duration. Yes, I feel uncomfortable when a single POV is presented without dissent, when the majority opinion drowns out the small faction of doubters. My opinion is so insignificant in the scheme of things that to even argue that I, who has hardly achieved anything in my life, could detract from Sachin's greatness merely by posting a couple of stats, is laughable. However, long years of dealing, digesting, regurgitating and having to make a living out of facts and facts alone has given me the ability to look at a problem from both sides. It's second nature- I couldn't survive without it. Riya, the player v player should be available with every scorecard since 2004. Just try one.

[CSK Fan]

As a cricket fan, and Indian cricket fan, who has been around a while you can see the overrun of this nonsense that is "Sachin saga" these days. Many decent posters who tend to be objective would either keep silent or simply ignore the celebration. And the silence in most times is considered as "haters" by the morons that make Sachin fan brigade. xxx

The so called celebration and Sachin fan brigade is made up of some of the most respected ex players, current players and cricket related personal I really dont understand this. When the newspapers and magazines of countries which dont even play cricket brought out huge articles to celeberate his feat, why cant his own countrymen celeberate it for a bit? It was a world record for God's sake. If even world records dont excite you, whats the point of following cricket at all?

[riya]

Riya, the player v player should be available with every scorecard since 2004. Just try one.

[Dhondy]

So i can't find one for before 2004.So how did u find that in the case of Sachin -Akhtar.

There's just one Test before that Riya- the Asian Test championship at Calcutta. I went through the ball by ball scorecard. It was easy because he didn't score many. Shwetabh, just to clarify, in case you haven't guessed, I have a theory that Sachin's strategy is to see off the best quick in the opposition and score off the rest. I can't see how it makes him a worse player than somebody who doesn't use that strategy, say like Sehwag, because while the latter has obviously scored a lot more runs per ball, he was also dismissed proportionately more often by McGrath- 4 times in 5 Tests- to Sachin's 6/9. It's a tradeoff. Still a fascinating study, and the only way we are going to compute player specific averages for great head to heads.

[CSK Fan]

Over his entire career, Sachin has faced 141 deliveries from Shoaib and scored 79 runs, a SR of 56. .

But thats Sachin's career strike rate in tests!! So that means he has played him as well as he has played in his own career. Comparing him with Sehwag's strike rate is neither here nor there. Sachin's strike rate in tests in the best of forms was always around 60s. Remember this was around his worst form of his life not best

You'll find the same pattern with most top bowlers. Since Sehwag's debut, Sachin has faced precisely 45 deliveries from McGrath and scored 5 runs, a SR of 11.1. .

It kind of helps that he was in the worst form of his life in that perios I suppose? Gee 45 deliveries. What a huge sample

Player v player records are not available before mid 2000s. if one wishes, one can go back to 1999 and 2001 and find out how Sachin fared in those matches against McGrath, but I suspect it won't be a lot different. You guys didn't want to hear this, I suspect. He is a masterful batsman and picks off the weak links in the attack to score off. His record against the very best bowlers, particularly MTC, the quick ones, tells a story of survival...and waiting for the next over.

I believe you are trying so hard to be 'objective' that you have lost perspective a bit. The Sachin I grew up with was one of the most fearless batsmen. For example, take this knock http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63737.html He took Donald almost apart. Donald himself said he felt like applauding or on this really fast track of Perth http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63567.html This knock where he took apart each bowler in the SA attack http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63951.html This one might not be aganst the greatest attack but the pitch was playing up and no other batsman even crossed 20 http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63713.html in fact after seeing tests matches for so long, I have never seen a pattern where he tried to see off one bowler and target another. If the ball is there to be hit, he usually does. In case he is in one of his more circumspect mood, he still plays each bowler the same way. The only time I have seen him conscioulsy target a bowler was Warne and it was because he was the biggest threat. In the 90s he was considered the best player of pace by everyone and had an amazing range of shots. Since then he has cut down on his shots a lot. Objectivity is one thing. Trying to use selective stats to prove something is another. Instead of first collecting data and forming a conclusion, you are first forming a conclusion and searching for selective data to prove your point

[Dhondy]

MTC, you'll have to take my word that I was not being selective. It's just that readymade player v player stats were not available prior to 2004 (around then, I think). I watched those innings you have linked and there's no doubt Sachin was marvellous. He's a great player and I am not trying to take away from his achievements. I was simply interested in one aspect of his batting because there seemed to be a pattern there. Why don't you go through the ball by ball logs and post the overall head to head?

[zubinpepsi]

MTC well put.. some of the forefathers here are just being senile.. nevermind them.....

[Guest BossBhai]

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[riya]

U guys are confusing.Mixing tests and ODIs.Headache!

[Guest BossBhai]

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[riya]

yeah riya its not like SRT suddenly wont recognize Shoaib and stop fearing him once he switches to the Green patloon for ODIs ... he still is the same strike bowler and bowls at the same speed with the same cricket ball (albeit a white one) and heck SRT will be the first to face him.. no place to hide like the doc thinks he does.

Yeah instead Shoaib hid behind Waqar younis when he was attacked:dance:

[riya]

TBH i didn't like these sort of discrediting process.Either people want some one like Sehwag or some onlelike Dravid.Can't we have some one with both the attributes for a balance.

[CSK Fan]

MTC, you'll have to take my word that I was not being selective. It's just that readymade player v player stats were not available prior to 2004 (around then, I think). I watched those innings you have linked and there's no doubt Sachin was marvellous. He's a great player and I am not trying to take away from his achievements. I was simply interested in one aspect of his batting because there seemed to be a pattern there. Why don't you go through the ball by ball logs and post the overall head to head?

I will in a day or two Dhondy. Bit tied up for time ATM :two_thumbs_up:

[CSK Fan]

TBH i didn't like these sort of discrediting process.Either people want some one like Sehwag or some onlelike Dravid.Can't we have some one with both the attributes for a balance.

This is another issue I have with Partiot. He places so much empahis on strike rates when it comes to Sehwag VS Sachin but the same standards are not applied while calling Punter the best or even for Dravid. Similarly, he wants Sachin to perform in all pressure situations, in finals, in 4th innings but he doesnt measure Sehwag by these standards the problem with usual Sachin critics is that they demand perfection from him. If there are 101 parameters which make a batsman they will point one that which Sachin fails in and ignore that he is heads and shoulders above the others in the other parameters. His rivals are rated on one parameter only (Ponting for his average, Sehwag for his strike rate, Dravid for his crucial knocks, etc) Sachin is the sum total of all not the parts. He is giving Ponting a run for his money in the aaverages now, I have seen him bat at Sehwagise strike rates when needed and he has also played crucial innings like Dravid

[Dhondy]

Boss, I agree that fear is too strong a word, and I remember apologizing on the old ICF for having used a simile to that effect ("*****ing bricks", I think is what I had said). It was still strange to see him walk though. I have never known him to be walker. It would have been a marginal decision at best. Was he just overwhelmed? Certainly, his H2H average of 26 @56 does not indicate that he dominated Shoaib in Tests.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[CSK Fan]

Boss, I agree that fear is too strong a word, and I remember apologizing on the old ICF for having used a simile to that effect ("*****ing bricks", I think is what I had said). It was still strange to see him walk though. I have never known him to be walker. It would have been a marginal decision at best. Was he just overwhelmed? Certainly, his H2H average of 26 @56 does not indicate that he dominated Shoaib in Tests.

I dont think a batsman can average more than 30-35 against one bowler, can he? Considering that a fast bowler bowls around max 15(in Sohaib's case even less) in an innings of 90 overs how many overs can a batsman face? About 8-10? And how many runs can he score per innings in those overs? This is only in case he bats through 90 overs. 26 runs might not be as bad made as the numbers show. Also remember, the average does not include the innings in whichh Sachin was not out to Sohaib BTW, there have been ocasions when he has walked when he edged. I remember an instance when he walked on 97 after edging the ball down the leg. I remember this because earlier there was an appeal and the commentators felt he was out but not given. So when he walked on 97, Shashtri was saying, why would he walk on 97 and no in the 40s? That shows he was not out before

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Dhondy]

I dont think a batsman can average more than 30-35 against one bowler' date=' can he? Considering that a fast bowler bowls around max 15(in Sohaib's case even less) in an innings of 90 overs how many overs can a batsman face? About 8-10? And how many runs can he score per innings in those overs? [[/quote'] Well, Sehwag does average 52 in H2H against Shoaib, so what you say is not true.