The Outsider Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 I need to eat be back later .. but the point is not that ... the point is how easy it is to mis-interpret SG .... without looking I can tell you that it will be far less as he only played in 80 inngs over 52 tests. On the contrary, you need some lessons in interpreting data - the point of showing that list was that while the number of bowlers averaging less than 28 would be less in Bradman's time, so would the number of bowlers averaging greater than 35/40 be greater in Tendulkar's time just because of the sheer volume of cricket played. And while the absolute numbers from statsguru are not really relevant, the ratio of the number from Tendulkar and Bradman's times will remain around the same if you apply the same filters. Link to comment
thevortex Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 Thats EXACTLY what I thought too. :D Or you could have said 'ஆடற மாட்ட ஆடி தான் கற்கணும், பாடற மாட்ட பாடி தான் கற்கணும்' :giggle: Good number of Tamils here :). Link to comment
Guest BossBhai Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 -- Removed on request of the user -- Link to comment
teacup Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 Really what are you smoking these days? I can understand your enthusiasm to perch Sachin on top but to suggest fast bowlers were trundlers?? You are embarassing yourself. By the way you never came back on the fact Larwood was indeed picked by experts in CI England all-time XI and Verity was a close nominee(to Underwood). Do you beleive all these experts were sipping bhaang and smoking ganja? You don't believe they were on a high? How else would you explain the selection of Kevin Pieterson in an England all-time XI? None from Gower, Gooch, Gatting or Boycott but KP in an all-time XI! Link to comment
teacup Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 Top batting averages for the period 1928-1948 when playing against England or Australia. Link Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 DG Bradman (Aus)1928-1948 37 63 7 5028 334 89.78 19 12 6 AR Morris (Aus) 1946-1948 10 17 2 1199 196 79.93 6 4 0 GA Headley (WI) 1930-1948 20 37 4 2171 270* 65.78 10 5 2 L Hutton (Eng) 1938-1948 12 21 1 1232 364 61.60 3 6 1 H Sutcliffe (Eng) 1928-1934 17 30 4 1535 194 59.03 3 11 0 A Melville (SA) 1938-1947 10 17 2 855 189 57.00 4 3 2 M Leyland (Eng) 1929-1938 20 34 4 1705 187 56.83 7 3 2 AD Nourse (SA) 1935-1948 21 39 5 1875 231 55.14 5 10 2 DCS Compton (Eng) 1938-1948 14 26 3 1235 184 53.69 5 5 1 WH Ponsford (Aus) 1928-1934 13 22 2 1053 266 52.65 3 4 1 WR Hammond (Eng) 1928-1947 33 58 3 2852 251 51.85 9 7 2 What this shows is that against good opposition, Bradman's peer domination translates to 10 runs - way below the overall figure of 40. Link to comment
The Outsider Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 Top batting averages for the period 1928-1948 when playing against England or Australia. Link What this shows is that against good opposition, Bradman's peer domination translates to 10 runs - way below the overall figure of 40. Tendulkar hasn't been able to do even that - no less than 7 batsmen have averaged more than him 1989 onwards excluding the minnows. http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=140;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=10;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=01+Jan+1989;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting PS : Your attempt at statistical jugglery needs applause nonetheless by cleverly choosing the 10 test cut off and making sure Arthur Morris with his 10 tests makes the list Link to comment
teacup Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 Tendulkar hasn't been able to do even that - no less than 7 batsmen have averaged more than him 1989 onwards excluding the minnows. http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=140;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=10;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=01+Jan+1989;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting PS : Your attempt at statistical jugglery needs applause nonetheless by cleverly choosing the 10 test cut off and making sure Arthur Morris with his 10 tests makes the list When Bradman himself had played only 37 tests, you are saying 10 tests is not a fair cut-off? Compare that with your jugglery where you compare someone who has played 150 test matches with someone like Imran Khan who had played only 15 tests? Now let everyone decide which one of these two statistical analysis is laugh-worthy! :hysterical: Link to comment
zen Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 PS : Your attempt at statistical jugglery needs applause nonetheless by cleverly choosing the 10 test cut off and making sure Arthur Morris with his 10 tests makes the list Yep and they probably won't do apples to apples for Tendulkar. What's funny is that these folks are naive enough to think that others won't realize that :hysterical: Link to comment
The Outsider Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 When Bradman himself had played only 37 tests, you are saying 10 tests is not a fair cut-off? Compare that with your jugglery where you compare someone who has played 150 test matches with someone like Imran Khan who had played only 15 tests? Now let everyone decide which one of these two statistical analysis is laugh-worthy! :hysterical: And after removing Imran Khan, does Tendulkar start dominating that list? He couldn't even average more than his peers - best batsman ever??:hysterical: BTW, have you been able to invent that non linear phormula of cricket batting averages yet which will bring 100 down to 50, and also bring 58 down to 50? Link to comment
teacup Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 And after removing Imran Khan' date=' does Tendulkar start dominating that list? He couldn't even average more than his peers - best batsman ever??:hysterical:[/quote'] The difference in averages between Tendulkar and other top batsmen who have played more than 50 test matches is marginal and when you consider his outstanding statistics in ODI cricket and the fact that no body comes close to playing over 20 years among his contemporaries, he has a good case to be considered the greatest. There are other contenders as well but what you guys are saying is that Bradman is inarguably the greatest batsman which even the ICF voters don't seem to agree with. Link to comment
zen Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 Below is Test batting since 1 Jan 2000 (till today) Player Span Mat Inns NO RunsDescending HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s RT Ponting (Aus) 2000-2010 110 189 22 9808 257 58.73 15713 62.41 33 41 9 1144 59 investigate this query JH Kallis (ICC/SA) 2000-2010 105 180 27 8994 189* 58.78 19292 46.62 29 42 7 1028 65 investigate this query R Dravid (ICC/India) 2000-2010 105 182 24 8697 270 55.04 19924 43.65 23 42 7 1110 15 investigate this query ML Hayden (Aus) 2000-2009 96 172 14 8364 380 52.93 13745 60.85 29 29 10 1020 81 investigate this query DPMD Jayawardene (SL) 2000-2009 95 160 12 8187 374 55.31 15313 53.46 25 30 10 972 38 investigate this query SR Tendulkar (India) 2000-2010 93 156 17 7606 248* 54.71 13890 54.75 25 31 7 991 28 investigate this query KC Sangakkara (SL) 2000-2009 88 147 10 7549 287 55.10 13594 55.53 21 32 4 977 22 investigate this query GC Smith (ICC/SA) 2002-2010 83 145 9 6799 277 49.99 11228 60.55 20 26 10 883 18 investigate this query V Sehwag (ICC/India) 2001-2010 76 130 5 6691 319 53.52 8273 80.87 19 21 10 948 78 investigate this query Mohammad Yousuf (Pak) 2000-2010 73 125 11 6534 223 57.31 12280 53.20 23 23 7 820 45 investigate this query VVS Laxman (India) 2000-2010 94 153 26 6510 281 51.25 12948 50.27 15 38 9 874 4 investigate this query S Chanderpaul (WI) 2000-2009 86 148 25 6435 203* 52.31 14747 43.63 19 35 9 724 22 investigate this query BC Lara (ICC/WI) 2000-2006 66 120 2 6380 400* 54.06 10771 59.23 21 19 13 786 59 investigate this query JL Langer (Aus) 2000-2007 76 134 11 5994 250 48.73 10162 58.98 18 21 7 773 34 investigate this query Test batting from 1 Jan 1989 to 1 Jan 2000 Player Span Mat Inns NO RunsDescending HS Ave 100 50 0 MA Taylor (Aus) 1989-1999 104 186 13 7525 334* 43.49 19 40 5 investigate this query SR Waugh (Aus) 1989-1999 100 159 32 7078 200 55.73 21 32 12 investigate this query AJ Stewart (Eng) 1990-1999 93 169 12 6407 190 40.80 12 34 7 investigate this query ME Waugh (Aus) 1991-1999 99 164 11 6371 153* 41.64 17 37 15 investigate this query MA Atherton (Eng) 1989-1999 93 172 6 6290 185* 37.89 13 38 19 investigate this query SR Tendulkar (India) 1989-1999 73 115 12 5841 217 56.70 22 23 7 investigate this query BC Lara (WI) 1990-1999 65 112 4 5573 375 51.60 13 29 4 investigate this query DC Boon (Aus) 1989-1996 73 128 17 5260 200 47.38 15 22 13 investigate this query As we can see in the period: 1989-2000: Tendulkar is the pick of the bunch, with Lara being the close 2nd 2000-today period: there isn't a clear leader but someone like Sehwag looks to be in a different league with his amazing SR Based on stats: Tendulkar from 1989-2000 period has a case to be the best from that bunch but someone like Lara is not far behind. Also someone like Waugh managed to keep a high average after playing like 100 tests in that period. Let assume that if Tendulkar had retired in 2000, it would still be hard to compare him with Don. In fact hardly anyone thought about such a comparison at that time Tendulkar from 2000-today period isn't an easy pick. Thus it's hard to compare him with Don Bradman as criteria used to do that may be true of others as well. If anyone has to be compared from this period than Sehwag has a better chance, as I said before, because of his ability to average that much with that kind of a SR But the reason, Tendulkar is rated so highly is because he has constantly been there at the best or up with the best for like 20 years, which is what sets him apart from other batters bar Sir Don Bradman, who was the best almost everytime he walked in to take the guard Link to comment
teacup Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 Below is Test batting since 1 Jan 2000 (till today) Player Span Mat Inns NO RunsDescending HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s RT Ponting (Aus) 2000-2010 110 189 22 9808 257 58.73 15713 62.41 33 41 9 1144 59 investigate this query JH Kallis (ICC/SA) 2000-2010 105 180 27 8994 189* 58.78 19292 46.62 29 42 7 1028 65 investigate this query R Dravid (ICC/India) 2000-2010 105 182 24 8697 270 55.04 19924 43.65 23 42 7 1110 15 investigate this query ML Hayden (Aus) 2000-2009 96 172 14 8364 380 52.93 13745 60.85 29 29 10 1020 81 investigate this query DPMD Jayawardene (SL) 2000-2009 95 160 12 8187 374 55.31 15313 53.46 25 30 10 972 38 investigate this query SR Tendulkar (India) 2000-2010 93 156 17 7606 248* 54.71 13890 54.75 25 31 7 991 28 investigate this query KC Sangakkara (SL) 2000-2009 88 147 10 7549 287 55.10 13594 55.53 21 32 4 977 22 investigate this query GC Smith (ICC/SA) 2002-2010 83 145 9 6799 277 49.99 11228 60.55 20 26 10 883 18 investigate this query V Sehwag (ICC/India) 2001-2010 76 130 5 6691 319 53.52 8273 80.87 19 21 10 948 78 investigate this query Mohammad Yousuf (Pak) 2000-2010 73 125 11 6534 223 57.31 12280 53.20 23 23 7 820 45 investigate this query VVS Laxman (India) 2000-2010 94 153 26 6510 281 51.25 12948 50.27 15 38 9 874 4 investigate this query S Chanderpaul (WI) 2000-2009 86 148 25 6435 203* 52.31 14747 43.63 19 35 9 724 22 investigate this query BC Lara (ICC/WI) 2000-2006 66 120 2 6380 400* 54.06 10771 59.23 21 19 13 786 59 investigate this query JL Langer (Aus) 2000-2007 76 134 11 5994 250 48.73 10162 58.98 18 21 7 773 34 investigate this query Test batting from 1 Jan 1989 to 1 Jan 2000 Player Span Mat Inns NO RunsDescending HS Ave 100 50 0 MA Taylor (Aus) 1989-1999 104 186 13 7525 334* 43.49 19 40 5 investigate this query SR Waugh (Aus) 1989-1999 100 159 32 7078 200 55.73 21 32 12 investigate this query AJ Stewart (Eng) 1990-1999 93 169 12 6407 190 40.80 12 34 7 investigate this query ME Waugh (Aus) 1991-1999 99 164 11 6371 153* 41.64 17 37 15 investigate this query MA Atherton (Eng) 1989-1999 93 172 6 6290 185* 37.89 13 38 19 investigate this query SR Tendulkar (India) 1989-1999 73 115 12 5841 217 56.70 22 23 7 investigate this query BC Lara (WI) 1990-1999 65 112 4 5573 375 51.60 13 29 4 investigate this query DC Boon (Aus) 1989-1996 73 128 17 5260 200 47.38 15 22 13 investigate this query As we can see in the period: 1989-2000: Tendulkar is the pick of the bunch, with Lara being the close 2nd 2000-today period: there isn't a clear leader but someone like Sehwag looks to be in a different league with his amazing SR Based on stats: Tendulkar from 1989-2000 period has a case to be the best from that bunch but someone like Lara is not far behind. Also someone like Waugh managed to keep a high average after playing like 100 tests in that period. Let assume that if Tendulkar had retired in 2000, it would still be hard to compare him with Don. In fact hardly anyone thought about such a comparison at that time Tendulkar from 2000-today period isn't an easy pick. Thus it's hard to compare him with Don Bradman as criteria used to do that may be true of others as well. If anyone has to be compared from this period than Sehwag has a better chance, as I said before, because of his ability to average that much with that kind of a SR But the reason, Tendulkar is rated so highly is because he has constantly been there at the best or up with the best for like 20 years, which is what sets him apart from other batters bar Sir Don Bradman, who was the best almost everytime he walked in to take the guard There is one thing you did not mention, his ODI record is simply peerless and taken as a whole he has a good case for the greatest batsman title. I would put Viv Richards, Don Bradman and Sachin Tendulkar in the same category. Any one of these three can be considered the greatest batsman. Link to comment
b555 Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 teacup where did u get these stats? :hatsoff: Link to comment
teacup Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 teacup where did u get these stats? :hatsoff: Thanks! The much ridiculed Cricinfo StatsGuru of course! Link to comment
Roshanrocks Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 there was some complicated statistics regarding best batsmen ever in cricnfo... i will search for it.... Link to comment
zen Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 There is one thing you did not mention' date=' his ODI record is simply peerless and taken as a whole he has a good case for the greatest batsman title. I would put Viv Richards, Don Bradman and Sachin Tendulkar in the same category. Any one of these three can be considered the greatest batsman.[/quote'] If you are comparing him with Bradman then you don't take ODI records because Bradman never played ODIs duh. After 5 years, someone will say XYZ is better than Tendulkar because he did well in all three formats, i.e. Tests, ODIs and T20, while Tendulkar did well in only two. Link to comment
teacup Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 If you are comparing him with Bradman then you don't take ODI records because Bradman never played ODIs duh. After 5 years' date=' someone will say XYZ is better than Tendulkar because he did well in all three formats, i.e. Tests, ODIs and T20, while Tendulkar did well in only two.[/quote'] Duh...the discussion is on who is the Greatest Batsman of All Time, period. ODI cricket has been a major fixture in the cricket calendar for the last 20 years, so there is no way you can ignore it and make a fair assessment. And, who knows, if there were no ODIs there would have been fair amount of practice games against first class teams before every Test series, less travel, which would have helped him score more runs in test matches. Link to comment
thevortex Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 Teacup - to bring in Tendulkar's ODI record when comparing with Bradman is nothing short of preposterous. I know we all extrapolate and try and see how Bradman will fare against Steyn and Donald and Akram and how Sachin would fare against Allen and Larwood and co. But lets at least confine ourselves to the one form of the game they both played. Even in that form of the game - Test cricket - there have been so many changes over time. We simply cannot think about bringing in ODIs. Next thing I know you would be pulling in Tendulkar's IPL record!!! Link to comment
teacup Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 Teacup - to bring in Tendulkar's ODI record when comparing with Bradman is nothing short of preposterous. I know we all extrapolate and try and see how Bradman will fare against Steyn and Donald and Akram and how Sachin would fare against Allen and Larwood and co. But lets at least confine ourselves to the one form of the game they both played. Even in that form of the game - Test cricket - there have been so many changes over time. We simply cannot think about bringing in ODIs. Next thing I know you would be pulling in Tendulkar's IPL record!!! You are missing the point of this whole discussion. It is not about Bradman Vs Tendulkar but it is about who is the Greatest Batsman of All Time. The discussion would seem like it is a comparison between Bradman and Tendulkar as they are the leading contenders for the title but it is not. Link to comment
zen Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 Duh...the discussion is on who is the Greatest Batsman of All Time' date=' period. ODI cricket has been a major fixture in the cricket calendar for the last 20 years, so there is no way you can ignore it and make a fair assessment. And, who knows, if there were no ODIs there would have been fair amount of practice games against first class teams before every Test series, less travel, which would have helped him score more runs in test matches.[/quote'] When we talk about the greatest batsmen of all time, we are talking about from test crickets perspective, duh! If you want to include ODIs in to it then you will have to assume that Don would have done pretty well in it :winky: .... Unless you think that the greatest batsman of all time wouldn't have done well in ODIs, I don't see why anyone would want to put him below Richards or Tendulkar in that format. If that's the case then it boils down to the performances in test cricket Talking specifically about ODIs, who is the greatest there is a different issue. I am sure many would say its Sir Viv Richards, while many would say it's Tendulkar. In the end, I don't think many care who the best is in ODIs From your posts, it appears as if you want to create or remove criterias based on where you can show Tendulkar has an edge but unfortunately for you others tend to look at a much broader picture Link to comment
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