Bradman is the greatest, Sachin comes only second: Waugh, Benaud

[vvvslaxman]

I agree. He was consistent. He never pwned bowlers like Ambrose, Donald, Mcgrath in tests. He played them out. During 1997 tour to Windies Dravid took on Ambrose more than Sachin as Sachin was struggling against his fast and furious spell. in one of the Test.

[EnterTheVoid]

Australia under Ponting, they are no pushovers, even with all the retirements. Tough as nails Ponting is, thats why he's one of my favorites.

[thevortex]

SRT is a great batsman. But so are many others. SRT is nothing more than: 1) India's 3rd best test bat. ( Behind SG and VS) 2) A batsman with amazing endurance and longevity. 3) India's best ODI player ever. ( That may change once Dhoni hangs his boots) Nothing more. Nothing less. His records are nothing but a function of his longevity in the game. It is funny that any time he plays an " aggressive " knock, his fanboy brigade goes into frenzy about his greatness. Even when that aggressive knock is sedate by standards of the likes of Sehwag or Viv Richards. His fan brigade would turn ICF into a sperm bank if he played even a couple of marathon destructive knocks like Sehwag does at work. This only goes on to show that the the man is a subject of unprecedented hype.

Who is VS? Laxman? And I hope SG is Sunil Gavaskar and not Saurav Ganguly :). I wish everybody who played for a long time had such a record to claim. Also nobody seems to appreciate that the Indian team is not something static that even Tendulkar can just hold onto without performing. He has played for a long time because he deserved to be there in the team. By the way - you stats fan have to come out with one thing. Why is Border not in your good books? He was, for a long time, the top scorer in the game. So why dont you guys put a case for him as well?

[patriot]

Ponting knows the day he gives up captaincy will be the end of his playing career in a baggy green cap.When did the last time an ex-Australian captain play a test match under a new captain? India would take an in-form Tendulkar anyday over and out of form Captain Tendulkar and frankly I don't see a point why he should carry the burden of 10 other players in a team game. He is doing his best and that is all anybody can do' date=' if the supporting cast does not perform. There is nothing that Ponting is doing to build a team after the retirment of legends, he was lucky enough to captain a team full of legends and can be bereft of ideas when his team is not performing without the legends as the Ashes series last year would show.[/quote'] You are absolutely right. Thats because Aussie captains take a lot of pride in captaining their side inspite of the added captaincy burdens and the effect it has on ones batting. Ian Chappell, Border, Taylor, Waugh..etc..all captained the last match they played. But being the super prolific and classy batter than Ponting is, he could easily ask to be picked purely as player like SRT, so that he could focus on doing what he does best. But not the case. He is taking the challenge head on of rebuilding a side, even when his own form is dwindling. And that is where you gotta admire the man.

[Dhondy]

Batsmen v Donald: http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=3;orderby=batting_average;player_involve=2011;player_involve_type=all;qualmax1=50;qualmin1=5;qualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting Batsmen v Donald & Pollock: http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=3;orderby=batting_average;player_involve=2011;player_involve=2228;player_involve_type=all;qualmax1=50;qualmin1=5;qualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting v Dale Steyn http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=3;orderby=batting_average;player_involve=47154;qualmax1=50;qualmin1=5;qualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting v Shoaib Akhtar http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=7;orderby=batting_average;player_involve=5649;qualmax1=50;qualmin1=5;qualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting

[Dhondy]

I adjusted it a little to consider the period that Sachin played against them, i.e. 1 Jan 1999 to 1 Jan 2005, to standardize the form of the bowlers Below is what the result: link

CL Cairns (NZ)  	2000-2001  	6  	11  	0  	515  	109  	46.81  	754  	68.30  	1  	3  	0  	54  	17  	investigate this query
VVS Laxman (India) 	1999-2004 	9 	17 	0 	777 	281 	45.70 	1272 	61.08 	2 	3 	1 	125 	0 	investigate this query
NJ Astle (NZ) 	2000-2004 	8 	15 	1 	615 	156* 	43.92 	1114 	55.20 	1 	3 	1 	80 	1 	investigate this query
JH Kallis (SA) 	2001-2002 	6 	12 	2 	429 	99 	42.90 	921 	46.57 	0 	4 	0 	52 	1 	investigate this query
SR Tendulkar (India) 	1999-2004 	7 	14 	0 	592 	126 	42.28 	1067 	55.48 	2 	4 	1 	76 	3 	investigate this query
AC Parore (NZ) 	2000-2001 	6 	11 	4 	294 	110 	42.00 	704 	41.76 	1 	0 	0 	31 	5 	investigate this query
MA Butcher (Eng) 	1999-2002 	9 	18 	1 	648 	173* 	38.11 	1205 	53.77 	1 	2 	1 	81 	1 	investigate this query
ND McKenzie (SA) 	2001-2002 	6 	12 	1 	415 	99 	37.72 	929 	44.67 	0 	3 	1 	62 	1 	investigate this query
HH Gibbs (SA) 	2001-2002 	6 	12 	0 	451 	104 	37.58 	903 	49.94 	1 	2 	0 	70 	0 	investigate this query
G Kirsten (SA) 	2001-2002 	6 	12 	0 	437 	153 	36.41 	980 	44.59 	1 	2 	0 	62 	0 	investigate this query
Mohammad Yousuf (Pak) 	1999-2004 	5 	10 	0 	358 	111 	35.80 	580 	61.72 	1 	2 	1 	47 	5 	investigate this query
N Hussain (Eng) 	1999-2002 	7 	14 	1 	460 	61 	35.38 	1107 	41.55 	0 	5 	0 	49 	2 	investigate this query
MR Ramprakash (Eng) 	1999-2001 	5 	10 	0 	346 	133 	34.60 	753 	45.94 	1 	0 	0 	43 	0 	investigate this query
AJ Stewart (Eng) 	1999-2002 	9 	17 	2 	487 	76* 	32.46 	786 	61.95 	0 	4 	4 	63 	1 	investigate this query
R Dravid (India) 	1999-2004 	9 	17 	0 	540 	180 	31.76 	1597 	33.81 	1 	2 	2 	62 	1 	investigate this query
SP Fleming (NZ) 	2000-2004 	8 	15 	0 	471 	105 	31.40 	1069 	44.05 	1 	4 	2 	54 	0 	investigate this query
CD McMillan (NZ) 	2000-2004 	7 	13 	1 	372 	79 	31.00 	838 	44.39 	0 	3 	1 	46 	6 	investigate this query

Sachin sits at the top amongst those he is being compared to! Has the most 100s, 4 50s and an average of 40+ w/o any not outs

Sorry, selective stats not allowed. Didn't you hear Patriot being chided for quoting a selected period? All or nothing. Them are the rules to avoid manipulation of stats.

[thevortex]

Dhondy - when talking of Kallis' 'better' technique as compared to Tendulkar, dont forget that Kallis himself was not shy of mentioning that he picked up many batting techniques from watching Tendulkar. In fact he has gone on air saying that he learnt to play the flick (the Indian way with rolling of wrists to keep the ball on the ground) from watching Sachin Tendulkar. By the way I dont think Kallis is a technically better player than Sachin. He is just more defensive than Tendulkar. What this means is that Sachin tends to get out more often trying to play shots and making mistakes in the process. Dravid on the other hand is a step above - technically. But then technically better or not, is not the question. Bradman by the way used to change his grip to play the glance. Do you think he could have done that in modern cricket? And in his own words, he was not very technical or copy book and was quite a maverick in his times.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Gunner_Mania]

Again, this thread has been derailed into a Tendulkar V/s Everybody, without a Bradman V/s Everybody being considered, because that is what the title of the thread says - that Bradman was the best.

[patriot]

Who is VS? Laxman? And I hope SG is Sunil Gavaskar and not Saurav Ganguly :). I wish everybody who played for a long time had such a record to claim. Also nobody seems to appreciate that the Indian team is not something static that even Tendulkar can just hold onto without performing. He has played for a long time because he deserved to be there in the team. By the way - you stats fan have to come out with one thing. Why is Border not in your good books? He was, for a long time, the top scorer in the game. So why dont you guys put a case for him as well?

Are you being sarcastic ? I meant Sehwag and Gavaskar. Border is arguably the toughest cricketer around. Led from the front and captained a much poor Aussie side to WC victory in 1987. Leading run scorer of the 80's and someone who shephered Aussies during their lowest point in cricket.

[Dhondy]

Dhondy - that was useful for me to understand where you come from. Thank you. I respect your viewpoint but still disagree. The'Against's' that you chalk up assumes that Sachin Tendulkar is not a single man in a team but a team by himself - for the most part. There was one point that says he falters against unlikely bowlers. How is that an 'against' in such a comparison? That is a fact, I am not doubting that. But I definitely dont think that that makes him a lesser batsman than the others. Anyway lets agree to disagree and move on.

You haven't put up a convincing counter agreement to convince me otherwise, unlike my own effort. As for the only point you made: a batsman loses his wicket regularly against rookies and part-timers. For, against or neutral while judging that batsman?

[vvvslaxman]

You set the bar when it comes to imagination .... remember the legendry statement that quality of bowling is really immaterial ... even the collective idiocy of the rest of this forum will not be able to better that. You can now retire from this thread/phorum in the firm knowledge that you are the undisputed champion in that regard ... Iam sure EMC can give you a certificate.

Dhondy and Patriot clearly explain to you how he is not so "dominating" against the "demonic bowlers". So you better listen to that than your own post number #105 :cantstop:

[patriot]

BB must be regretting for why he decided to keep on making a pointless argument with imaginative theories.

WHat ??? Havn't you heard of the story where SRT's chef's masaledar and oily food recipes caused him cramps and prevented him from scoring runs many times. He would have averaged 100+ if not for that god damn cook. :cantstop: Bradman fed only on boiled food. Lucky healthy bugger.

[thevortex]

Are you being sarcastic ? I meant Sehwag and Gavaskar. Border is arguably the toughest cricketer around. Led from the front and captained a much poor Aussie side to WC victory in 1987. Leading run scorer of the 80's and someone who shephered Aussies during their lowest point in cricket.

No, I am not being sarcastic. Sehwag has quite some way to go before he can be even compared with Tendulkar. He is exciting and is on his way to becoming great. But he is not there yet. Lets give him a couple of years at least. And why dont you stats fan talk about Border staying at that run aggregate summit for such a long time? Why can he not be your best batsman of all time? I dont think he will come off very poorly doing these vs individual bowlers comparisons.

[Dhondy]

Dhondy - when talking of Kallis' 'better' technique as compared to Tendulkar, dont forget that Kallis himself was not shy of mentioning that he picked up many batting techniques from watching Tendulkar. In fact he has gone on air saying that he learnt to play the flick (the Indian way with rolling of wrists to keep the ball on the ground) from watching Sachin Tendulkar. By the way I dont think Kallis is a technically better player than Sachin. He is just more defensive than Tendulkar. What this means is that Sachin tends to get out more often trying to play shots and making mistakes in the process. Dravid on the other hand is a step above - technically. But then technically better or not, is not the question. Bradman by the way used to change his grip to play the glance. Do you think he could have done that in modern cricket? And in his own words, he was not very technical or copy book and was quite a maverick in his times.

Technique is a moot point, always has been. I take it you accept that he is a better pressure player than Tendulkar?

[vvvslaxman]

WHat ??? Havn't you heard of the story where SRT's chef's masaledar and oily food recipes caused him cramps and prevented him from scoring runs many times. He would have averaged 100+ if not for that god damn cook. :cantstop: Bradman fed only on boiled food. Lucky healthy bugger.

Bradman partially lost his sight due to fibro myalgia. He went through depression, war, had to take 10 year break. Those factors actually were nothing for them.

[patriot]

No, I am not being sarcastic. Sehwag has quite some way to go before he can be even compared with Tendulkar. He is exciting and is on his way to becoming great. But he is not there yet. Lets give him a couple of years at least. And why dont you stats fan talk about Border staying at that run aggregate summit for such a long time? Why can he not be your best batsman of all time? I dont think he will come off very poorly doing these vs individual bowlers comparisons.

Have runs become so cheap that you have to score 10000+ of them to have any pedigree ? If thats the case than Bradman has been run down many a times and jayawardene and Co..are about to run down Gavaskar. Sehwag has nearly 7000 runs. He is the quickest Indian ( even in terms of innings) to score 1000,2000,3000,4000,6000 runs. He has scored record doubles and triples at a neck breaking speed, never witnessed in cricket. Not a single bowler he has faced and not torn apart. His genius is based only on sheer quality. SRT's is on quantity.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[patriot]

Bradman partially lost his sight due to fibro myalgia. He went through depression' date=' war, had to take 10 year break. Those factors actually were nothing for them.[/quote'] And aBradman also captained for most of his career. The overrated Mumbaikar that he is being compared to, has all the luxuries money can buy and has an army of people looking after his every small need and he only has to focus on his game. Yet for well over half his career, he averages a pidly 47 in the best batting conditions in cricket's history.This is 10 places behind his peers. How insane is it to compare him to someone who averages almost 100 in test cricket ? Funny part is SRT's domestic cricket average where even the likes of Kambli and Badri are superstars is a "mere" 65.

[thevortex]

Technique is a moot point' date=' always has been. I take it you accept that he is a better pressure player than Tendulkar?[/quote'] You just have to ask South Africans about this, Dhondy. They have a thing against Kallis just like many here have a thing against Tendulkar. :) But no, I dont think Kallis is better than Tendulkar in any way. As you yourself have put it, there is nobody in the history of the game who carries as much pressure as Sachin Tendulkar. No exceptions.

Have runs become so cheap that you have to score 10000+ of them to have any pedigree ? If thats the case than Bradman has been run down many a times and jayawardene and Co..are about to run down Gavaskar. Sehwag has nearly 7000 runs. He is the quickest Indian ( even in terms of innings) to score 1000,2000,3000,4000,6000 runs. He has scored record doubles and triples at a neck breaking speed, never witnessed in cricket. Not a single bowler he has faced and not torn apart. His genius is based only on sheer quality. SRT's is on quantity.

Patriot - it is not that I am not a Sehwag fan. In fact I think he has ushered in a new paradigm when it comes to Test cricket. I also strongly believe that there is a relation between Sehwag's ascendancy and India's upswing as far as Test cricket is concerned. So, yes, Sehwag is good. Very good. But I stop short of calling him great. Personally I think he is on his way there and I would like to talk about that in a couple of years time.