Tracking The Gap - Boss vs Ponting

[Roshanrocks]

AS of July 11, 2010 [table=head;sort=7]Name|Matches| Innings|Runs|Average|100|50 Sachin Tendulkar|166| 271| 13447| 55.56| 47| 54 Ricky Ponting |144| 243| 11928| 55.22| 39| 51 [/table] a gap of 1519 runs a gap of 8 centuries

[Sachin200*]

Since start of 2010 Sachin scored four consecutive test centuries in every test i hope he does continue the same form

[Anakin]

One of these two is a home track bully, I really don't see what's all the fuss about :punter:

[THX_1138]

imagine how much further ahead ponting would have been had never had to play against harbhajan singh... now imagine how far behind ponting would have been had he never played against sir aggy.

[akshayxyz]

Going to be interesting month - Ponting against Pak in Eng, Sachin vs SL in SL!!.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[SJS50]

Its amazing how cricket fans tend to "yo-yo" about cricketing giants completely going by recent stats and making no allowance of current (or future) loss of form or the player regaining the same. I remember a few years back, on CW there was this massive discussion about how Ponting would finally overtake Sachin's records of runs, centuries and set to rest all arguments about who was the greatest batsman since Bradman blah, blah blah. I tried to reason out both with words and some stats why this may not happen but people at that time were besotted with Ponting's run of great form and Sachin's relative lack of it. Today the fickle lady that form has been since ever and ever has changed allegiance once again and here is the beating of drums all over again. Chew over the following. :- Between the away series in West Indies in 1998-99 and the home series against them in 2002-02 (both series included), Sachin had the following figures . . . .

• Tests : 51
• Runs : 2285
• 100's : 20
• Avg : 67.4

Note : The series against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh are not included the figures above and all that follow. Then, from the series in NZL that followed in 2002-03 right till the series in England over four years later (2007) Sachin managed . . .

• Tests : 56
• Runs : 1901
• 100's : 3
• Avg : 37.3

A drop of 30 points in average and from 20 to 3 Test hundreds in 5 more Tests !!! Naturally Sachin was called all kind of names, hints that maybe it was time for him to retire turned to motives being assigned to his refusal to step down and worse. Of corse it was taken for granted that he was finished and that staying on was doing harm to him and much more to Indian cricket. Since than Sachin has had a spectacular revival. What Sachin has managed since then is fresh enough in everyone's memory to need recalling. He is not at the peak of his powers but good enough to be one of the first names to be penned in on any Indian team sheet. Ponting had a great run between the home series vs South Africa in 2001-02 till the away series in Windies (2007-08) - Period 1 - and in the period since then (period 2) he has suffered a similar drop. If anything he has dropped from a slightly greater high and not to such depths as Sachin went down to . . .

[B]PLAYER 	Ponting     	Tendulkar[/B]

[B]Stats 	P-1	P-2	P-1	P-2[/B]

Tests	60	26	51	56
Runs	6384	1855	2285	1901
100’s	24	4	20	3
Avg	67.9	41.2	67.4	37.3

What happened to Tendulkar when he stopped scoring those big runs and what happened when he started scoring them again? We can all come up with our fancy theories but the fact remains that such spells are not uncommon in cricketing careers and the longer a career the more the likelihood of them recurring. A truly top class player, if his body withstands and his heart is in the game, has every possibility of returning back because, to repeat the hackneyed cliche, class IS permanent. And to doubt Pontings undoubted class is to display a shocking lack of cricketing savvy. If his body and mind are wiling he WILL be back. The problem is how the authorities (and the player himself to an extent) handle the situation in the interim. Some players benefit from a short spell away while others do better by continuing to play. Its for the authorities/selectors to decide what is best keeping Australia's short as well as medium term interests in mind. Not to forget the most important point of what is the caliber of possible replacement. I have always been of the opinion that Sachin should have been rested a bit during his poor patch. He would have been spared the ridiculous treatment meted out to him by those who had, equally ridiculously, treated him as the infallible God before. The breaks from the game that injury forced upon the great man and his invariable return to the game with renewed zest only emphasizes that point. But Indian selectors have a funny way of treating seniors. Lets see how Australians handle one of their finest post war batsmen in his time of crisis.

[Roshanrocks]

Its amazing how cricket fans tend to "yo-yo" about cricketing giants completely going by recent stats and making no allowance of current (or future) loss of form or the player regaining the same. I remember a few years back, on CW there was this massive discussion about how Ponting would finally overtake Sachin's records of runs, centuries and set to rest all arguments about who was the greatest batsman since Bradman blah, blah blah. I tried to reason out both with words and some stats why this may not happen but people at that time were besotted with Ponting's run of great form and Sachin's relative lack of it. Today the fickle lady that form has been since ever and ever has changed allegiance once again and here is the beating of drums all over again. Chew over the following. :- Between the away series in West Indies in 1998-99 and the home series against them in 2002-02 (both series included), Sachin had the following figures . . . .

• Tests : 51
• Runs : 2285
• 100's : 20
• Avg : 67.4

Note : The series against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh are not included the figures above and all that follow. Then, from the series in NZL that followed in 2002-03 right till the series in England over four years later (2007) Sachin managed . . .

• Tests : 56
• Runs : 1901
• 100's : 3
• Avg : 37.3

A drop of 30 points in average and from 20 to 3 Test hundreds in 5 more Tests !!! Naturally Sachin was called all kind of names, hints that maybe it was time for him to retire turned to motives being assigned to his refusal to step down and worse. Of corse it was taken for granted that he was finished and that staying on was doing harm to him and much more to Indian cricket. Since than Sachin has had a spectacular revival. What Sachin has managed since then is fresh enough in everyone's memory to need recalling. He is not at the peak of his powers but good enough to be one of the first names to be penned in on any Indian team sheet. Ponting had a great run between the home series vs South Africa in 2001-02 till the away series in Windies (2007-08) - Period 1 - and in the period since then (period 2) he has suffered a similar drop. If anything he has dropped from a slightly greater high and not to such depths as Sachin went down to . . .

[B]PLAYER 	Ponting     	Tendulkar[/B]

[B]Stats 	P-1	P-2	P-1	P-2[/B]

Tests	60	26	51	56
Runs	6384	1855	2285	1901
100’s	24	4	20	3
Avg	67.9	41.2	67.4	37.3

What happened to Tendulkar when he stopped scoring those big runs and what happened when he started scoring them again? We can all come up with our fancy theories but the fact remains that such spells are not uncommon in cricketing careers and the longer a career the more the likelihood of them recurring. A truly top class player, if his body withstands and his heart is in the game, has every possibility of returning back because, to repeat the hackneyed cliche, class IS permanent. And to doubt Pontings undoubted class is to display a shocking lack of cricketing savvy. If his body and mind are wiling he WILL be back. The problem is how the authorities (and the player himself to an extent) handle the situation in the interim. Some players benefit from a short spell away while others do better by continuing to play. Its for the authorities/selectors to decide what is best keeping Australia's short as well as medium term interests in mind. Not to forget the most important point of what is the caliber of possible replacement. I have always been of the opinion that Sachin should have been rested a bit during his poor patch. He would have been spared the ridiculous treatment meted out to him by those who had, equally ridiculously, treated him as the infallible God before. The breaks from the game that injury forced upon the great man and his invariable return to the game with renewed zest only emphasizes that point. But Indian selectors have a funny way of treating seniors. Lets see how Australians handle one of their finest post war batsmen in his time of crisis.

Nicely written SIr,

[Anakin]

Nice attempt SJS50, but sadly without much merit. Ponting has been a FTB throughout his career, there is no yo-yo or whatever going on.

[Chandan]

Between the away series in West Indies in 1998-99 and the home series against them in 2002-02 (both series included), Sachin had the following figures . . . .

• Tests : 51
• Runs : 2285
• 100's : 20
• Avg : 67.4

Note : The series against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh are not included the figures above and all that follow. Then, from the series in NZL that followed in 2002-03 right till the series in England over four years later (2007) Sachin managed . . .

• Tests : 56
• Runs : 1901
• 100's : 3
• Avg : 37.3

A drop of 30 points in average and from 20 to 3 Test hundreds in 5 more Tests !!!

Something doesn't seem right there SJS. I'm no stats master and can't even handle these kind of stats, but did Sachin score just 4186 runs in 107 tests and the other 9000+ runs came in another 59 matches? Doesn't it sound odd? I think you have to check the stats again.

[The Outsider]

Something doesn't seem right there SJS. I'm no stats master and can't even handle these kind of stats, but did Sachin score just 4186 runs in 107 tests and the other 9000+ runs came in another 59 matches? Doesn't it sound odd? I think you have to check the stats again. PS: Can I move this post of yours to "tracking the gap between and Ponting" thread?

Yeah, I also found those numbers odd so cross checked after seeing your post. It appears they are not right. From '02-'03 tour of NZ to '07 tour of England : http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;spanmax1=15+Oct+2007;spanmin1=1+Dec+2002;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting;view=innings My guess is SJS removed Bangladesh and then took the above period which is of 56 innings and not tests : http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=15+Oct+2007;spanmin1=1+Dec+2002;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Bublu Bhuyan]

I smell stats here :woot: :woot: :woot: These things dont apply to SRT ...I doubt there is anybody in Indian cricket that has the balls to go tell the great man what to do ... he is perhaps the only player that writes his own destiny. He could have played in the 2005 Series against Zim or the 2006 Series in WI if he wanted to but he chose not to. Instead he went and played for Lashings.

Exactly. Practically, his place in playing 11 is secured unless he himself decides otherwise.

[Chandan]

Any updation guys? And the graph? How about making an a grapf in anticipation, say for next seven tests and then check after 6 months where you stand?

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[saneindian]

After this test, till 2011 WC, Aussies play 7 tests (2 in India+ 5 in the Ashes). India on the other hand have got 2 tests in SL, 2 vs Aus, 3 vs NZ and 3 vs SA, a total of 10 tests. Expect the gap to be around 2000 runs and at least 12 100s by 2011 WC.

[DomainK]

After this test, till 2011 WC, Aussies play 7 tests (2 in India+ 5 in the Ashes). India on the other hand have got 2 tests in SL, 2 vs Aus, 3 vs NZ and 3 vs SA, a total of 10 tests. Expect the gap to be around 2000 runs and at least 12 100s by 2011 WC.

Given Ponting's current form and the fact that his next two tests are in India (his nightmare), it's quite probable that the gap will widen faster than that. The burden of captaincy and the threat of getting fired will weigh on him as well. He knows that Ashes will be his last opportunity to as captain and he will be under tremendous pressure to perform individually and with the team. Losing to Pakistan is not helping either. Plainly, nothing seems to go right for him.

[SJS50]

The statistical error pointed out in my post is typographical. It is a bit cumbersome cutting and posting from a cricket stats site onto an excel spreadsheet, then removing matches for a period and matches against a certain side, then summing them up, then taking the columns one wants to use and then making a fresh table which is finally pasted onto the site. The basic figures (drop in averages and hundreds) remain basically unchanged, The number of Tests(mix up with innings for a period) is not that relevant to make the point which is that Sachin too went into a very bad patch and yet recovered. The same could be the case with Ponting and he too may recover if his body and mental faculties do not fail him. By the way, this post was not written to show Ponting to be better than or equal to Ponting. I took Sachin's example because they are contemporaries and their careers are both impressive and long. To read into it an attempt to equate Ponting with Sachin is to miss the woods for the trees but that, sadly, is a common problem on most cricket sites. . . This is also a reason why one stays away from getting into a prolonged and pointless discussion at times. The loss, I agree, is also mine but the feeling of bashing one's head against a wall is too painful for my old bones :-)

[Chandan]

The statistical error pointed out in my post is typographical. It is a bit cumbersome cutting and posting from a cricket stats site onto an excel spreadsheet, then removing matches for a period and matches against a certain side, then summing them up, then taking the columns one wants to use and then making a fresh table which is finally pasted onto the site. The basic figures (drop in averages and hundreds) remain basically unchanged, The number of Tests(mix up with innings for a period) is not that relevant to make the point which is that Sachin too went into a very bad patch and yet recovered. The same could be the case with Ponting and he too may recover if his body and mental faculties do not fail him. By the way, this post was not written to show Ponting to be better than or equal to Ponting. I took Sachin's example because they are contemporaries and their careers are both impressive and long. To read into it an attempt to equate Ponting with Sachin is to miss the woods for the trees but that, sadly, is a common problem on most cricket sites. . . This is also a reason why one stays away from getting into a prolonged and pointless discussion at times. The loss, I agree, is also mine but the feeling of bashing one's head against a wall is too painful for my old bones :-)

I agree with your post mostly, SJS, but will also say that Sachin's drop in form was due to the numerous injuries he had from the beginning of 2004 to the end of 2006--tennis elbow, shoulder injury, bicep rupture etc. Ponting hasn't gone through any such injury. So what will he recover from?

[SJS50]

Just lack of form. I disagree that Sachin's lack of form was DUE to his injuries. His injuries compounded his lack of form which preceded them. In fact, I think Sachin has a bit to thank his injuries for they forced him to take a break which not only allowed his injuries to heal but brought him back fresh to the game. One can find many other examples of great players running into bad form. Today the problem has got compounded because the top players do not play as much first class cricket as they used to earlier. Coming back a level in quality of opposition and starting to score runs again does lots for the confidence and confidence is what a top player tends to lose when the bad run starts getting extended. I have always maintained that selectors do a great dis-servise to top players in India by not dropping them when off colour. So many have benefitted from being finally dropoped. Ganguly, Sehwag, Dravid, Laxman are just a few examples.