What is Dhoni's contribution to the team?

[Nirvanam]

Saying " a captain should be aggressive" is much easier than handling a bowling unit where bar one bowler rest everyone is not exactly at the top of his game , there is a completely docile pitch under a hot sun and you as a keeper know from within that you are in for long hours. The team's catching form (including his own keeping) hasn't exactly helped the matter either. He may be defensive at times (which is how the modern game is being played these days), but the fact is we have won nearly 70% of the tests we have played at home in recent times. Yes our batting has contributed majorly to most of these wins, but then because we have won so many of these tests, it means we have successfully taken 20 opposition wickets a number of times. Given the form of our bowlers, that is a very good achievement and should not be looked down upon. On pitches where there as been some help for his bowlers recently (Mumbai test vs SL, Eden test vs SA, 3rd test vs SL in SL, 2nd innings of both the tests vs Australia etc) he has shown that he can be proactive, aggressive and imaginative with his decisions (Bringing Ishant on, getting Sehwag, Raina etc to bwol some crucial overs and provide us the break through etc).

I understand your concerns with my viewpoint and I understand that your viewpoint is different from mine. As with any other viewpoint in life, neither of our viewpoints are wrong or right. They are just viewpoints. The reasons for my viewpoint stem from the following: The first time I knew about captaincy in cricket is back in 1987 when I was watching the series Bodyline. I was around 10 then. I remember a scene very vividly of a young Jardine being told by his father/mentor/whoever that "you don't play cricket with the bat and ball, you play cricket with the mind" As I grew up and saw India losing game after game because not one soul in the batting order had even the minimal guts to look in the eye of the opposition except for the Buddha (and Jumbo in bowling). I used to crave for an India that was confident of itself Dada brought that confidence in the team. I loved it. I infact accepted Dada as our captain only after his 99 to save the Nottingham Test in 2002 and that was a birthday gift he gave me I guess(until then he was competition to Rahul in my eyes as a batsman). Once Dhoni came in and won the T20 WC with fearlessness I was like, we finally have a captain who can go one up on Dada. I expected Dhoni to be the cap of India who can match Dada for confidence and agression, and do better on reading the game, and wresting the psychological advantage by assertive play. So when Dhoni hangs around to get a 600 run lead over a minnow to have a go at them, that image of Dhoni gets shattered. Of course he has his reasons and all of us here are just intellectually masturbating about what he should or should not have done. That's fine...there is pleasure in that :winky:

[ZodiaC]

On pitches where there as been some help for his bowlers recently (Mumbai test vs SL, Eden test vs SA, 3rd test vs SL in SL, 2nd innings of both the tests vs Australia etc) he has shown that he can be proactive, aggressive and imaginative with his decisions (Bringing Ishant on, getting Sehwag, Raina etc to bwol some crucial overs and provide us the break through etc).

2nd innings of Bangalore test he didn't even have 2 slips for the new ball IIRC. And we were bowling well too. After one boundary is being hit, he all of a changes the field and sends a fielder to the boundary, irrespective of the situation. And the deep point is always there even when *****itz and hilfy was batting (2nd innings of the first test). Bringing Ishanth on was pretty smart move, fully agree with that :--D

[saneindian]

I understand your concerns with my viewpoint and I understand that your viewpoint is different from mine. As with any other viewpoint in life, neither of our viewpoints are wrong or right. They are just viewpoints. The reasons for my viewpoint stem from the following: The first time I knew about captaincy in cricket is back in 1987 when I was watching the series Bodyline. I was around 10 then. I remember a scene very vividly of a young Jardine being told by his father/mentor/whoever that "you don't play cricket with the bat and ball, you play cricket with the mind" As I grew up and saw India losing game after game because not one soul in the batting order had even the minimal guts to look in the eye of the opposition except for the Buddha (and Jumbo in bowling). I used to crave for an India that was confident of itself Dada brought that confidence in the team. I loved it. I infact accepted Dada as our captain only after his 99 to save the Nottingham Test in 2002 and that was a birthday gift he gave me I guess(until then he was competition to Rahul in my eyes as a batsman). Once Dhoni came in and won the T20 WC with fearlessness I was like, we finally have a captain who can go one up on Dada. I expected Dhoni to be the cap of India who can match Dada for confidence and agression, and do better on reading the game, and wresting the psychological advantage by assertive play. So when Dhoni hangs around to get a 600 run lead over a minnow to have a go at them, that image of Dhoni gets shattered. Of course he has his reasons and all of us here are just intellectually masturbating about what he should or should not have done. That's fine...there is pleasure in that :winky:

I would not be too critical of that NZ 3rd test deicison. We had nearly 2 days to bowl out the kiwis. Bad light and rain coupled with 4-5 drop catches saved the day for NZ (nearly 70 overs were lost).

[saneindian]

2nd innings of Bangalore test he didn't even have 2 slips for the new ball IIRC. And we were bowling well too. After one boundary is being hit, he all of a changes the field and sends a fielder to the boundary, irrespective of the situation. And the deep point is always there even when *****itz and hilfy was batting (2nd innings of the first test). Bringing Ishanth on was pretty smart move, fully agree with that :--D

On a pitch where the brand new ball was not even carrying to the keeper , what would have been the point of having slip fielders. IIRC Zak and Sree started bowling with scrambled seam from the 1st over itself as they wanted to roughen up the ball and start getting reverse swing. We had a wide slip and a gully who stopped some edges which would have been easy 4s otherwise. Why would you risk giving too many easy runs with the new ball when you know your main weapon is going to be reverse swing later in the innings, you have a lead of only 17 runs and know that you are in for a tricky 4th innings chase if you let the opposition get off to a quick start. On the deep point for Hilfy and Hauritz in 2nd innings of 1st test, those two added a grand total of 12 runs out of which 4 were byes, and no run was scored through the vacant point region!! Wonder what exactly you are moaning about :-)

[ZodiaC]

On a pitch where the brand new ball was not even carrying to the keeper ' date=' what would have been the point of having slip fielders. IIRC Zak and Sree started bowling with scrambled seam from the 1st over itself as they wanted to roughen up the ball and start getting reverse swing. We had a wide slip and a gully who stopped some edged which would have been easy 4s otherwise.[/quote'] Watto edged one which was a potential chance for the slips. If it doesn't carry, you need to stay a bit further, not like you should give up the advantage you get from the seam movement. And the wide slip was in after an edge went for four IIRC. You can't afford to have slips for a mere 5-10 overs? What sort of logic is that?

Why would you risk giving too many easy runs with the new ball when you know your main weapon is going to be reverse swing later in the innings, you have a lead of only 17 runs and know that you are in for a tricky 4th innings chase if you let the opposition get off to a quick start.

Yes, I'd easily take that risk for 5-10 overs atleast, and see if I get a wicket of the new ball. This is not tontee tontee. what would be the max score be with Katto & Watto opening? And pressure was on them and not us, so what were the odds of them going crazily after the bowling anyways?

[ZodiaC]

On the deep point for Hilfy and Hauritz in 2nd innings of 1st test, those two added a grand total of 12 runs out of which 4 were byes, and no run was scored through the vacant point region!! Wonder what exactly you are moaning about :-)

Phew.. I didn't talk about how it turned out it in the end did I? A deep point fielder for the tail is the last thing I'd call aggressive (as mentioned in your OP).

[saneindian]

Watto edged one which was a potential chance for the slips. If it doesn't carry, you need to stay a bit further, not like you should give up the advantage you get from the seam movement. And the wide slip was in after an edge went for four IIRC. You can't afford to have slips for a mere 5-10 overs? What sort of logic is that? Yes, I'd easily take that risk for 5-10 overs atleast, and see if I get a wicket of the new ball. This is not tontee tontee. what would be the max score be with Katto & Watto opening? And pressure was on them and not us, so what were the odds of them going crazily after the bowling anyways?

Dhoni was standing like 6-7 steps away from the stumps and even then the ball wasn't carrying to him. The guys playing on the field obviously know better what works best for them under the given circumstances and conditions. So being overtly critical of a move which was "in accordance with the pitch condition" (and hence as good as being "out of box" and "aggressive" in decision making) , you are contradicting your own point.

[saneindian]

Phew.. I didn't talk about how it turned out it in the end did I? A deep point fielder for the tail is the last thing I'd call aggressive (as mentioned in your OP).

I would call that a "result oriented decision" and would have more such decisions which help the team win than "aggressive" moves like having 3 slips and 2 gullies for tailenders and giving them open invitiation to hit their way to glory!

[ZodiaC]

Dhoni was standing like 6-7 steps away from the stumps and even then the ball wasn't carrying to him. The guys playing on the field obviously know better what works best for them under the given circumstances and conditions. So being overtly critical of a move which was "in accordance with the pitch condition" (and hence as good as being "out of box" and "aggressive" in decision making) , you are contradicting your own point.

So you have nothing to say of that wattos edge yet eh? That was a genuine chance if you watched the match. Much closer than what is written on cricinfo. Ohh and BTW keeping slips for the new ball is followed by 99% of skippers because they know irrespective of the pitch there are chances for a wicket or two.. Not because they were all dumbasses.. Of course you prefer to call that out of the box.. Have it your way then..

I would call that a "result oriented decision" and would have more such decisions which help the team win than "aggressive" moves like having 3 slips and 2 gullies for tailenders and giving them open invitiation to hit their way to glory!

Oh, it's that way eh, then lets better agree to disagree. There's no point debating that then.

[saneindian]

So you have nothing to say of that wattos edge yet eh? That was a genuine chance if you watched the match. Much closer than what is written on cricinfo. Ohh and BTW keeping slips for the new ball is followed by 99% of skippers because they know irrespective of the pitch there are chances for a wicket or two.. Not because they were all dumbasses.. Of course you prefer to call that out of the box.. Have it your way then.. Oh, it's that way eh, then lets better agree to disagree. There's no point debating that then.

As I said in the end what counts is the end result, not how you got to it. I remmeber so many on the board going mad on that day saying the match will be draw, dhoni has lost it and blah blah, in the end the Aussies were bundled out for 230 odd on a pitch which was supposedly dead when Aussies began batting. So rather than nitpicking on what should have been done, I would give credit to the captain for pulling things back.

[Nirvanam]

I would not be too critical of that NZ 3rd test deicison. We had nearly 2 days to bowl out the kiwis. Bad light and rain coupled with 4-5 drop catches saved the day for NZ (nearly 70 overs were lost).

Nah...in that test we had enough data to warn us about bad light and rain. So I just can't understand how he waited fore 600 runs!!!! alright 500 we can say he was cautious but 600???????????

[saneindian]

Nah...in that test we had enough data to warn us about bad light and rain. So I just can't understand how he waited fore 600 runs!!!! alright 500 we can say he was cautious but 600???????????

You never play a test match going by the weather forecast especially when you are 1-0 ahead, have seen your opponents score 600+ in the previous test and you have not won a test series in that country for 40 years!!

[Nirvanam]

You never play a test match going by the weather forecast especially when you are 1-0 ahead' date=' have seen your opponents score 600+ in the previous test and you have not won a test series in that country for 40 years!![/quote']Listen, please look at the context ... the wicket was not very easy to make runs, you were playing against a minnow and you had your bowlers in good form, and there was every chance the rains would come down and not allow full play. Would you wait around to make 600? Are you so insecure about your own abilities to beat a minnow? I mean seriously, what are you defending?

[saneindian]

Listen' date=' please look at the context ... the wicket was not very easy to make runs, you were playing against a minnow and you had your bowlers in good form, and there was every chance the rains would come down and not allow full play. Would you wait around to make 600? Are you so insecure about your own abilities to beat a minnow? I mean seriously, what are you defending?[/quote'] The same so called "minnow" had our team in doldrums in the previous test and their batting had scored 600+ off the same bowling attack!! As for weather forecasts, they have never been reliable (wasn't the Bangalore test vs Australia expected to be rained out recently?). Yes the criticism could be on batting for too long, but then there was enough time for us to bowl out the opposition. As for me defending it, ask yourself why are you being overly critical?

[Nirvanam]

The same so called "minnow" had our team in doldrums in the previous test and their batting had scored 600+ off the same bowling attack!! As for weather forecasts' date=' they have never been reliable (wasn't the Bangalore test vs Australia expected to be rained out recently?). [/quote']Irrelevant logic...post facto incidents have no bearing on the decision made at Wellington.

Yes the criticism could be on batting for too long' date=' but then there was enough time for us to bowl out the opposition. As for me defending it, ask yourself why are you being overly critical?[/quote']No I am not being overly critical, that is not my intent. I am only expressing my disappointment with Dhoini's assertive and aggressive persona he brings to the team. He was being unnecessarily defensive against minnows. That is only an observation. If it makes you feel better, I also observe that Dhoni is the best cap we have right now and I believe he will finish off as not only India's best cap but possibly the best cap of test history...alongside ppl like Jardine, Lloyd, Ian Chappell, Dada, Taylor, Waugh, and the great Niazi

[saneindian]

Irrelevant logic...post facto incidents have no bearing on the decision made at Wellington. No I am not being overly critical, that is not my intent. I am only expressing my disappointment with Dhoini's assertive and aggressive persona he brings to the team. He was being unnecessarily defensive against minnows. That is only an observation. If it makes you feel better, I also observe that Dhoni is the best cap we have right now and I believe he will finish off as not only India's best cap but possibly the best cap of test history...alongside ppl like Jardine, Lloyd, Ian Chappell, Dada, Taylor, Waugh, and the great Niazi

Really? Looks like you got confused by the term "previous test". I am talking about the 2nd test of that 2009 series and not the last test of the current series!! Also, the last part of your post has made this debate completely futile!

[Nirvanam]

Really? Looks like you got confused by the term "previous test". I am talking about the 2nd test of that 2009 series and not the last test of the current series!! Also, the last part of your post has made this debate completely futile!

Of course it has...it is possible that you viewed me as a Dhoni basher, quite wrongly, when I wasn't trying to show him down or his achievements as nothing great. Maybe understanding the opposite person's perspective first may help see the world in color rather than black-and-white?

[saneindian]

Of course it has...it is possible that you viewed me as a Dhoni basher, quite wrongly, when I wasn't trying to show him down or his achievements as nothing great. Maybe understanding the opposite person's perspective first may help see the world in color rather than black-and-white?

And where exactly did I call you a basher or something even remotely as close as as that?

[Andy]

Of course it has...it is possible that you viewed me as a Dhoni basher' date= quite wrongly, when I wasn't trying to show him down or his achievements as nothing great. Maybe understanding the opposite person's perspective first may help see the world in color rather than black-and-white?

Welcome to ICF.:giggle: If you dont Think Dhoni is Great you'll be called "Dhoni Basher, Dhoni Hater Blind SRT fan" and more on. I have gone through this loads of time.

[Ranjha]

Dhoni threads are getting annoying. lol There is not much to talk about dhoni in tests.