When Kirsten decides to leave Indian team...Duncan Fletcher would be our best bet.

[Nirvanam]

Its all in the mind. A coach like Greg would have been very successful in India had we not got our giant-sized egos in between and try to dominate him every single time. Had we been a bit more patient with him, we would have seen the light of the day (#1 spot) under his tenure itself. Instead, we made it a game of one-upmanship and there were two-teams in the dressing room- 1. One Trying to win India the match. 2. One Trying to make Greg look like a nut. We generally have a problem with people who don't take our crap lying down. Hence, people having no tongue or opinions of their own make great coaches for us.

I don't think it has much to do with Indian egos...don't buy into the media propaganda that everything is always wrong with our way of life. If anything it is these senior players that cared not for their egos and decided to dedicate themselves to a higher cause after match fixing made us the worst Test team - #8 in 2000 that we are at #1 today. Those seniors were Sachin, Jumbo, Dada, Rahul, Lax, and Srinath. They made Viru, Yuvi, Zak, and Bhajji. Don't fault them. the actual reason is that Greg Chappell did not have basic leadership qualities. He was brought up in a society of convicts and his style was suitable to manage thugs not generally soft spoken decent fellows (barring Dada). He did not have the basic leadership qualities of pacing your charges. He was more interested in implementing his vision than Indian cricket's growth. No, he did not have leadership qualities...he was good as a jail master for thugs and convicts not for us. How else did Wright and Kirstne, now, are doing things so greatly? They are leaders. A leader wins the trust of his charges...the convict Greg Chappell did not. A leader understands that even demi gods like Sachin and Viru have their frailties and accordingly manages them. Greg Chappell knew nothing great about human frailties...he was a convict who understood convict frailties not overall human frailties. He tried to impose convict culture to a vibrant modern Indian culture. He went around town saying our culture was bullshit and his thuggery was better. Who the **** will listen to such a guy? Don't buy into the crap that your culture, and the human beings of your culture are in any way moire egoistic than anyone else. Enough of big upping thuggery..let's face the facts - this team became number 1 especially because of those "giant" egos of Sachin, Jumbo, Dada, Rahul, Lax, Srinath, Viru, Yuvi, Zak, Bhajji, and MS. We should be happy with what we have and focus on our positives rather than changing our culture to imitate thuggery. Every country has its own culture and we should never be ashamed of that. Thuggery does not work for us. It may work for convicts of Australia. even for the convicts of New zealand thuggery does not work. It works for Aussies and should not be used as a one-size-fits-all approach.

[Nirvanam]

has already been a coach for us...wasn't all that great. And I don't agree with hiring Indian coaches. If we need to consistently win test series overseas, then we have to have someone who brings that difference in perspective/thinking- plus keep a low profile and avoid getting involved in any team/board politics. Kirsten has been perfect for us and I hope he is there for the long term.

You look down upon your countrymen. I will agree that ppl like Madan Lal, Sandip Patil, etc may not know great things about winning overseas. But Gavaskar, Kapil? They will. It is not the nation of the individual...it is what he knows. The current Indian greats when they hang up their boots they will be the best coaches. Why? Because they know what it takes for someone to win overseas? If England ropes in Dada as their coach after Flower he will help England win in India and Australia. if Australia rope in Lax as their coach he will help the convicts win in India and SL and WI and England.

If he leaves us after the WC then probably someone like Allan Donald,Tom Moody,Steve Waugh(Who has been part of a set-up that has won in different continents/conditions). But we do BADLY need a proper bowling coach- Eric Simons has had about a yr, but there is no real difference, we are still winning mostly due to our batting.

The best coach for me would be someone like Flemming, or Dada

[Holysmoke]

Veeru, upper cut aise marneka.

[achilles]

I don't think it has much to do with Indian egos...don't buy into the media propaganda that everything is always wrong with our way of life. If anything it is these senior players that cared not for their egos and decided to dedicate themselves to a higher cause after match fixing made us the worst Test team - #8 in 2000 that we are at #1 today. Those seniors were Sachin, Jumbo, Dada, Rahul, Lax, and Srinath. They made Viru, Yuvi, Zak, and Bhajji. Don't fault them. Don't buy into the crap that your culture, and the human beings of your culture are in any way moire egoistic than anyone else. Enough of big upping thuggery..let's face the facts - this team became number 1 especially because of those "giant" egos of Sachin, Jumbo, Dada, Rahul, Lax, Srinath, Viru, Yuvi, Zak, Bhajji, and MS. We should be happy with what we have and focus on our positives rather than changing our culture to imitate thuggery. Every country has its own culture and we should never be ashamed of that. Thuggery does not work for us. It may work for convicts of Australia. even for the convicts of New zealand thuggery does not work. It works for Aussies and should not be used as a one-size-fits-all approach.

You are completely changing the direction of this discussion and taking it too much to heart. But for the sake of debating, here's my response- 1. There is nothing wrong with our cricketers' way of life.... until someone shows 'em the mirror. Its just there in our mind that we can't say, "Yes Sir, I screwed up". 2. No one can take away their contribution. But then, it doesn't mean they did nothing wrong along the way. Dada pretty much ruined VVS' career in ODIs for reasons best known to him. 3. You pretty much left open a window when you said-

A leader understands that even demi gods like Sachin and Viru have their frailties and accordingly manages them.

This means that Sachin & Viru did have issues. Lets be fair to "leaders" per se. Everyone has his way of dealing. So if you don't like the way your boss deals with you, what do you do? Change yourself and adapt? Change the boss? 4. India selected the second. Its ego, here. He got the job in the first place, so the board thought he was doing something right. 5. I was disgusted to read that Rahul had the support of just half the team during most of the tours and even the 2007 World Cup. Is this what the seniors should be doing? I'm sure you agree that this behaviour is moronity of the highest order. We as fans were robbed while people were busy settling personal scores. 6. Calling a spade, a spade is a good practice. It doesn't work much here though, as many have found out. Greg did when he "quit". 7. Looking at the situation positively- Do you think Viru would've made the vengeful comeback that he did, had he not been dismissed from the team for poor form? Do you think Dada would've made one of the greatest return to the game, had he not been humilated by Greg? Do you think Zaheer Khan would've performed with vengeance to earn his place back in the team, had it not been for Greg chucking him out? The answers to these questions are subjective, depending on how you take them. Greg's policy of "perform or perish" didn't go down to well with many free-boarders like Yuvi, Zak, Dada & Viru at that time, who thought they could rest on their laurels and keep their places. Greg's policy of cultivating talent and nurturing youngsters bore fruit after he left. But we didn't handle them (except Raina) properly. 8. In retrospect, in hating Greg and showing what an idiot he was, our boys performed with so much passion and conviction that the rankings speak for themselves. Making him fall was our greatest motivator. And I'm sure Greg and Ian must be having a chuckle about it often.

[Nirvanam]

You are completely changing the direction of this discussion and taking it too much to heart. But for the sake of debating, here's my response- 1. There is nothing wrong with our cricketers' way of life.... until someone shows 'em the mirror. Its just there in our mind that we can't say, "Yes Sir, I screwed up". 2. No one can take away their contribution. But then, it doesn't mean they did nothing wrong along the way. Dada pretty much ruined VVS' career in ODIs for reasons best known to him. 3. You pretty much left open a window when you said- This means that Sachin & Viru did have issues. Lets be fair to "leaders" per se. Everyone has his way of dealing. So if you don't like the way your boss deals with you, what do you do? Change yourself and adapt? Change the boss? 4. India selected the second. Its ego, here. He got the job in the first place, so the board thought he was doing something right. 5. I was disgusted to read that Rahul had the support of just half the team during most of the tours and even the 2007 World Cup. Is this what the seniors should be doing? I'm sure you agree that this behaviour is moronity of the highest order. We as fans were robbed while people were busy settling personal scores. 6. Calling a spade, a spade is a good practice. It doesn't work much here though, as many have found out. Greg did when he "quit". 7. Looking at the situation positively- Do you think Viru would've made the vengeful comeback that he did, had he not been dismissed from the team for poor form? Do you think Dada would've made one of the greatest return to the game, had he not been humilated by Greg? Do you think Zaheer Khan would've performed with vengeance to earn his place back in the team, had it not been for Greg chucking him out? The answers to these questions are subjective, depending on how you take them. Greg's policy of "perform or perish" didn't go down to well with many free-boarders like Yuvi, Zak, Dada & Viru at that time, who thought they could rest on their laurels and keep their places. Greg's policy of cultivating talent and nurturing youngsters bore fruit after he left. But we didn't handle them (except Raina) properly. 8. In retrospect, in hating Greg and showing what an idiot he was, our boys performed with so much passion and conviction that the rankings speak for themselves. Making him fall was our greatest motivator. And I'm sure Greg and Ian must be having a chuckle about it often.

Most of what you have written is based on assumption of what is in the Indian players' minds. However, there is one part which captures the entire gist...it is this - " Everyone has his way of dealing. So if you don't like the way your boss deals with you, what do you do? Change yourself and adapt? Change the boss?" You decide based on practical feasibility and overall success you expect it to give you. In this case it is better for the coach to adapt to our culture than us adapting to his. Because it is much easier, and fairer for one to adapt to 30 others culture than expecting 30 others to adapt to thuggery of one. We are not thugs...and we are proud to not be thugs. After playing 15 yrs and 10 yrs by Sachin, Dada, Rahul, Jumbo, and Lac you think they were not good at adapting themselves to situations? How did they manage to play like world beaters all those years if they didn't manage to adapt to situations? India screwed Australia without Greg Chappell....India were ready to take over the top ranking in Test cricket as early as 2005 but a Convict was made our coach who utterly believed in thuggery which did not sit well with our guys. So, would you want the Thug to leave coz 30 ppl don't like his thuggery? Or do you want to bring in 30 new kids and teach them to be thugs? In my world-view the thug has to go. Edit - The boss of a cricket team is the captain not the coach. Cricket is a unique sport on this aspect.

[Andy]

You are completely changing the direction of this discussion and taking it too much to heart. But for the sake of debating, here's my response- 1. There is nothing wrong with our cricketers' way of life.... until someone shows 'em the mirror. Its just there in our mind that we can't say, "Yes Sir, I screwed up". 2. No one can take away their contribution. But then, it doesn't mean they did nothing wrong along the way. Dada pretty much ruined VVS' career in ODIs for reasons best known to him. 3. You pretty much left open a window when you said- This means that Sachin & Viru did have issues. Lets be fair to "leaders" per se. Everyone has his way of dealing. So if you don't like the way your boss deals with you, what do you do? Change yourself and adapt? Change the boss? 4. India selected the second. Its ego, here. He got the job in the first place, so the board thought he was doing something right. 5. I was disgusted to read that Rahul had the support of just half the team during most of the tours and even the 2007 World Cup. Is this what the seniors should be doing? I'm sure you agree that this behaviour is moronity of the highest order. We as fans were robbed while people were busy settling personal scores. 6. Calling a spade, a spade is a good practice. It doesn't work much here though, as many have found out. Greg did when he "quit". 7. Looking at the situation positively- Do you think Viru would've made the vengeful comeback that he did, had he not been dismissed from the team for poor form? Do you think Dada would've made one of the greatest return to the game, had he not been humilated by Greg? Do you think Zaheer Khan would've performed with vengeance to earn his place back in the team, had it not been for Greg chucking him out? The answers to these questions are subjective, depending on how you take them. Greg's policy of "perform or perish" didn't go down to well with many free-boarders like Yuvi, Zak, Dada & Viru at that time, who thought they could rest on their laurels and keep their places. Greg's policy of cultivating talent and nurturing youngsters bore fruit after he left. But we didn't handle them (except Raina) properly. 8. In retrospect, in hating Greg and showing what an idiot he was, our boys performed with so much passion and conviction that the rankings speak for themselves. Making him fall was our greatest motivator. And I'm sure Greg and Ian must be having a chuckle about it often.

Oh Really? Then why didnt VSS Got any games under RD and Dhoni? And i really didnt know VVS had an 'ODI Career' ever. He was not good enuff in Odis.

[achilles]

OP- I think Ray Jennings would make a better India coach than Duncan Fletcher.

Most of what you have written is based on assumption of what is in the Indian players' minds. However, there is one part which captures the entire gist...it is this - " Everyone has his way of dealing. So if you don't like the way your boss deals with you, what do you do? Change yourself and adapt? Change the boss?" You decide based on practical feasibility and overall success you expect it to give you. In this case it is better for the coach to adapt to our culture than us adapting to his. Because it is much easier, and fairer for one to adapt to 30 others culture than expecting 30 others to adapt to thuggery of one. We are not thugs...and we are proud to not be thugs. After playing 15 yrs and 10 yrs by Sachin, Dada, Rahul, Jumbo, and Lac you think they were not good at adapting themselves to situations? How did they manage to play like world beaters all those years if they didn't manage to adapt to situations? India screwed Australia without Greg Chappell....India were ready to take over the top ranking in Test cricket as early as 2005 but a Convict was made our coach who utterly believed in thuggery which did not sit well with our guys. So, would you want the Thug to leave coz 30 ppl don't like his thuggery? Or do you want to bring in 30 new kids and teach them to be thugs? In my world-view the thug has to go. Edit - The boss of a cricket team is the captain not the coach. Cricket is a unique sport on this aspect.

Thug? Again? C'mon mate. Thats a touch unfair. Aussies (generally, if you mean it that way) are not thugs. They are tough taskmasters but c'mon, they aren't thugs. Not everyone in the team was against Greg. Sachin, Viru, Yuvi & Bhajji were vocal critics. Dada later decided to stay out of it. So on any given match day, there were still 6 players who believed in their coach while others maybe did not. It affected us as a team and someone had to give in somewhere. The players were not going to take it and Greg wouldn't have tolerated any nonsense. People like Ray Jennings, Mickey Arthur, Duncan Fletcher are great coaches. Greg could've been in that league given a free hand and some support. Maybe both of us are right in our own ways. So lets keep it at that.

[achilles]

Oh Really? Then why didnt VSS Got any games under RD and Dhoni? And i really didnt know VVS had an 'ODI Career' ever. He was not good enuff in Odis.

He didn't get games under RD & Dhoni coz people had already replaced him.

[Andy]

He didn't get games under RD & Dhoni coz people had already replaced him.

Oh Ravindra Jadeja what a replacement.:cantstop: And IIRC almost the same set of players played during Ganguly and Dravids time. Useless players like Kaif, Mongia featured under both Captains. Its just that VVS was never considered ODI prospect, still he got few chances under Ganguly and didnt do that well, But under Dhoni and RD he hardly got any chances. Bottomline is VVS never fits into an ODI team.

[fineleg]

Dada tried his best to screw VVS, but anyway its past now. I am glad to see VVS is doing well in Tests (although he could have played a few more ODIs). And, no Andy - I'm not going to waste my time to prove this again, for something that was blatantly obvious and enough proof at the time when things happened.

[Andy]

Dada tried his best to screw VVS, but anyway its past now. I am glad to see VVS is doing well in Tests (although he could have played a few more ODIs). And, no Andy - I'm not going to waste my time to prove this again, for something that was blatantly obvious and enough proof at the time when things happened.

What an Excuse to Chicken out when you dont have facts supporting your claims whiney.:hysterical:

[fineleg]

^ Oh boool sheet. Puhleez. I dont need to prove the downright ulterior motive effort of Dada vs VVS - so sing along his praise Andy, dont let us stop you. If you had watched events then you would know. Over to you. You can have the last word on this, and you can also choose to believe what you want.

[Andy]

^ Oh Donkey sheet there. Am folowing cricket right from the 90s Your favourite Southie Son was just not good enough to feature an Odi team how about accept that and move on? You are allowed to post garbage over that issue, just dont expect us to accept that BS. What i remember clearly was that he was given chances in ODIs but he failed, But his fielding was very poor hence he was not sticked with even after number of Failures. Needs stats to back that? I can , But i bet you dont have any fact to back your Garbage. Gangulys decision was backed when Dravid himself never game him an ODI cap and what about Dhoni? Even RD was tried, Why not VVS? Because simply he doesnt fit the bill just as SG didnt and hence he was dropped. Accept the fact and move on, stop whining about your Idli dhosa Sambar boys. Happy Trolling whiney.

[fineleg]

You are talking like you cannot accept the truth. Have you read Prem Panicker? He is no weirdo guy, he is a good journalist. He has written lot of info on how Ganguly tried to screw Laxman. Please read those. I dont have all the writeups bookmarked, so it may take sometime to find those. But they are there, and pls. dont put your face in the sand like an ostrich and think that Ganguly is innocent. Politician and schemer he was (esp. with respect to VVS). Well, Ganguly can have a good post-cricket career in Indian politics. So, thats a good thing for him.

[Andy]

So it comes from a writer and you are asking me to believe that sheet? How about Chappel's 'Mirror' Article Finey? :haha: You should read more of them. It suits amateur Cricket fans like you. Tomorow if you turn some cricket journalist you can write some BS too, but they are as usual have always been miles away from facts. If Ganguly had to ruin VVS's career he wouldnt have got chances after chances despite failures in ODIs under Gangulys captaincy, what an weird Claim. If Ganguly played politics with VVS by not giving him enough run in ODIs then what did your Lord Dravid do? I dont remember VVS playing more than 1-2 games under him. Stop being biased and put your face in the sand like an ostrich and claim that Ganguly is politician. (When you do not have enough evidence to back up). VVS played 60 matches under Ganguly, compared to 11 under Dravid and none under Dhoni. This stats prove your claims wrong abut Ganguly playing politics. By your logic even Dhoni played Politics With Ganguly and Dravid and Ruined their career:D

[fineleg]

Panicker did have access to a lot of inside information since he moves very closely with the players. There was a lot of information in those writeups. Upto you whether you choose to ignore and sing praises of Lord Saurav. Alright Andy the thread can continue about Duncan Fletcher or not. I saw you were trying to shut up achilles when he was mentioning the truth about this SG-VVS, so I wrote here on that.

[ringo16]

Stephen Fleming would be a great coach, and obviously works well with Dhoni, but he has said that he's out of international coaching for at least 5 years. He has a young family at home and is probably glad to be free of 10+years constant touring and captaincy duties.

[Andy]

Umm yeah Ganguly the Legendary politician of India who gave India freedom in 1947 is derailing the Topic. BTW you didnt reply about How VVS managed to play 60 games under Ganguly out of his 80 despite him playing politics. BTW i and asterix have inside informations on Sir Dhoni as well, should we start writing up as well? :D And my point to achilies was perfectly correct , if he continues to post on the basis of assumptions and some random writers i will continue to object.

[fineleg]

^ Oh Donkey sheet there. Am folowing cricket right from the 90s Your favourite Southie Son was just not good enough to feature an Odi about your Idli dhosa Sambar boys.

And, its highly parochial and irrelevant that you bring in Southie Son, or Sambar boy. No need for regional reference. This has nothing to do with where VVS is from, if he or someone else was from a different region, the same thing would hold, and thats what I'd say even if Lord Saurav tried to screw a different player too.

[straight.drive]

. the actual reason is that Greg Chappell did not have basic leadership qualities. He was brought up in a society of convicts and his style was suitable to manage thugs not generally soft spoken decent fellows (barring Dada). He did not have the basic leadership qualities of pacing your charges. He was more interested in implementing his vision than Indian cricket's growth. No, he did not have leadership qualities...he was good as a jail master for thugs and convicts not for us. Every country has its own culture and we should never be ashamed of that. Thuggery does not work for us. It may work for convicts of Australia. even for the convicts of New zealand thuggery does not work. It works for Aussies and should not be used as a one-size-fits-all approach.

Can you quote instances where he exhibited lack of leadership qualities? In my book his style was based on western principles of Logic, aversion to individual worship and extreme devotion to work. It did not suit indian team which was emotional, had high amount of individual worship and filled with players of superb abilities.