Sehwag or Yusuf Pathan? Who's more destructive?

[The Outsider]

That may appear to be a stretch I admit when one just lists a name like Javed with Lara and Tendulkar. But I can make a darn good case for how great a batsman Miandad is and counted upon when the chips are down and the team needs a player to bail them out.

Like his mediocre record away from home or against the best side of his era?

[pensionplan]

WI and OZ had 2 best bowling unit during his time. Fact is no one considers Miandad an ATG batsman.

Let us keep this no one considers Miandad a ATG batsman aside for a second. Those are very subjective calls and what fits ones criteria. So I am not worried about that. I just threw out a bunch of names that are capable of playing good bowling well in all conditions and Miandad did that actually if you care to look at the individual innings than just that one piece of stat - Average. As an example take the 1987-88 tour of Pakistan to the WI'es. There Pakistan almost won the series in WI'es when going into the third Test the score line was 1-0 in favor of the Pakis and WI'es managed to win that third Test with 2 wickets to win after Pakistan was unable to clean up the tail with 2 wickets to go. In that series Javed was the main stay as the batsman for Pakistan. He scored 2 centuries in the series facing the likes of Marshall, Walsh, Ambrose and Patterson in WI where it was neck to neck. Also he did well in 1981 series of Australia facing Lillee, Alderman and Thommo in tandem as another example. That tells a tale about the quality of Miandad and what he is capable of as a batsman in tough conditions. Ideally sure one would have liked to see Miandad average more without a doubt versus WI'es but when you are facing excellent bowlers as was the case in the 80's when all teams be it Pak, WI, Aus, NZ, Eng all had excellent bowlers top down you are bound to have your share of failures no matter how good one is. Without worrying about if he is considered as an All time great batsman or not Miandad to me is a player that has the quality to face hostile bowling and be relied upon in any match situation or conditions.

[Raghav_12]

Let us keep this no one considers Miandad a ATG batsman aside for a second. Those are very subjective calls and what fits ones criteria. So I am not worried about that. I just threw out a bunch of names that are capable of playing good bowling well in all conditions and Miandad did that actually if you care to look at the individual innings than just that one piece of stat - Average. As an example take the 1987-88 tour of Pakistan to the WI'es. There Pakistan almost won the series in WI'es when going into the third Test the score line was 1-0 in favor of the Pakis and WI'es managed to win that third Test with 2 wickets to win after Pakistan was unable to clean up the tail with 2 wickets to go. In that series Javed was the main stay as the batsman for Pakistan. He scored 2 centuries in the series facing the likes of Marshall, Walsh, Ambrose and Patterson in WI where it was neck to neck. Also he did well in 1981 series of Australia facing Lillee, Alderman and Thommo in tandem as another example. That tells a tale about the quality of Miandad and what he is capable of as a batsman in tough conditions. Ideally sure one would have liked to see Miandad average more without a doubt versus WI'es but when you are facing excellent bowlers as was the case in the 80's when all teams be it Pak, WI, Aus, NZ, Eng all had excellent bowlers top down you are bound to have your share of failures no matter how good one is. Without worrying about if he is considered as an All time great batsman or not Miandad to me is a player that has the quality to face hostile bowling and be relied upon in any match situation or conditions.

Miandad's average was 29.78 against WI that too over a length of 16 test matches and you picking one series to show that he was indeed good against WI..!! I don't think you can justify that with any kind of rationality. If so, then how you can say Ajit Agargar was any lesser batsman when he in fact scored a hundred at Lords (if you derive conclusion based on one instance rather than using consolidated data) Similarly it goes for Australia where he played 16 test matches and still managed an average of meagre 38. Still you claim that he did well against in australia. Numbers don't lie. Fact is, he had an average 61.38 in Pakistan which pushed his overall stats. And his this average in Pakistan too, wouldn't have been possible without generous help from local umpires. Everybody knew in those days that umpires were not supposed to give LBW against Miandad if you playing in Pakistan.

[pensionplan]

Miandad's average was 29.78 against WI that too over a length of 16 test matches and you picking one series to show that he was indeed good against WI..!! I don't think you can justify that with any kind of rationality. If so, then how you can say Ajit Agargar was any lesser batsman when he in fact scored a hundred at Lords (if you derive conclusion based on one instance rather than using consolidated data) .

Hmm...ok...A person scoring 2 centuries in a series that they almost won against the best team at the time in their own backyard facing the most hostile of attacks and be the teams best batsman is the same as Agarkar scoring a century after the team virtually lost the game and no pressure. May be on the same token then Jason Gillespie is no lesser batsman than Tendulkar because both scored their highest Test scores with unbeaten double centuries versus Bangladesh in Bangladesh.

Similarly it goes for Australia where he played 16 test matches and still managed an average of meagre 38. Still you claim that he did well against in australia. Numbers don't lie.

Prior to the last series in SA, Tendulkar averaged below 40 in SA in 12 Tests and still his average in Pakistan is 40 in 10 Tests not much higher than Miandad's 38 in Australia. So one can easily say what they want to about Tendulkar too on the same token if they do not like to see beyond the averages alone.

Fact is, he had an average 61.38 in Pakistan which pushed his overall stats.

So what is wrong with that? A classic case of nit-picking. I can do that with all the players in some fashion or the other.

And his this average in Pakistan too, wouldn't have been possible without generous help from local umpires. Everybody knew in those days that umpires were not supposed to give LBW against Miandad if you playing in Pakistan

LOL. Very nice indeed. Casting aspersions. But I am sure you will have objections raised when someone says things about Tendulkar.

[Jersey #10]

Destroyer of the worst bowling attacks seen since the days of Bradman. Viv destroyed attacks which are considered to be the best ever in history, that too without a helmet and dozen other protective gears that modern players have the luxury of. Viv was and will always remain the ultimate destroyer of great bowling attacks. Any fan who has watched both Viv and Sehwag, wouldn't place the latter anywhere even near the King's shoes. P.S. It's a completely different matter when it comes to fans who haven't seen the King's era. They wouldn't come to realize who he was.

Sehwag has destroyed every good bowler of his era. Sometimes historic players are over exaggerated to make them look better than the current players. There is no scale on which you can compare two players form separate eras. This is like comparing Sachin vs Don. There is no answer to the question. Hell it would be hard to compare two players from the same team playing at different positions (opener, finisher) so there can not be a comparison between two players who are era apart from each other.

[Raghav_12]

And his this average in Pakistan too, wouldn't have been possible without generous help from local umpires. Everybody knew in those days that umpires were not supposed to give LBW against Miandad if you playing in Pakistan

LOL. Very nice indeed. Casting aspersions. But I am sure you will have objections raised when someone says things about Tendulkar.

If you are doubting veracity of my statement on Miandad's not given LBW's in pakistan, then I would say you don't have much knowledge on the way Cricket was played in Pakistan in 80's. Let me give you some fact. 1. Miandad started playing international cricket in 1976 and first time he was given LBW in pakistan was in 1985, after full 9 years in international cricket. 2. In full career Miandad was given LBW at home just 8 times while roughly in the same number of tests, outside Pakistan he was given LBW 25 times. Even out of those 8 times, 6 times he was given LBW in his last 6 years of internation cricket when after popularity of TV, not to give plumb LBW became increasingly difficult. 3. It is a fact Pakistan umpires were notoriously famous for biased umpiring. There was so much uproar against them, that Imran Khan was forced to invite neutral umpires for one of the tests in 80's. Ans Pakistani umpiring was main catalyst in forcing ICC to make neutral umpires as mandatory. I'll reply to your other comments a bit later.

[pensionplan]

If you are doubting veracity of my statement on Miandad's not given LBW's in pakistan, then I would say you don't have much knowledge on the way Cricket was played in Pakistan in 80's. Let me give you some fact. 1. Miandad started playing international cricket in 1976 and first time he was given LBW in pakistan was in 1985, after full 9 years in international cricket. 2. In full career Miandad was given LBW at home just 8 times while roughly in the same number of tests, outside Pakistan he was given LBW 25 times. Even out of those 8 times, 6 times he was given LBW in his last 6 years of internation cricket when after popularity of TV, not to give plumb LBW became increasingly difficult. 3. It is a fact Pakistan umpires were notoriously famous for biased umpiring. There was so much uproar against them, that Imran Khan was forced to invite neutral umpires for one of the tests in 80's. Ans Pakistani umpiring was main catalyst in forcing ICC to make neutral umpires as mandatory. I'll reply to your other comments a bit later.

The Pakistan umpires being blatantly biased towards their players somehow helped Miandad in his overall average is stretching it. While it is true their umpires are very patriotic to a point that had me cringe many a time the bowlers always had other ways to get the batsman out if they are not good enough. I am not the one to buy into all these theories since he was never out LBW for the first few years in Pakistan there was a conscious effort on the part of the umpires to not give him out LBW . There are much more stranger records in cricket than that. Besides the visiting teams always had a choice to raise the issue more vehemently and do something about it. The issue should end right there. So it is grossly unfair to link Miandad's accomplishments to drawing favors from the umpires. He would have been a great player even if he played today with neutral umpires against these bowling attacks. This is a man that had two 250+ scores one in England and one in NZ in the 80's.

[The Outsider]

An all time great whose Test 2nd innings average hovers around 30 at that. Sure can't compare Sehwag with everybody just like that.

I just threw out a bunch of names that are capable of playing good bowling well in all conditions and Miandad did that actually if you care to look at the individual innings than just that one piece of stat - Average.

So what is wrong with that? A classic case of nit-picking. I can do that with all the players in some fashion or the other.

At least don't make such an obvious fool out of yourself in the same thread! If you are talking about 2 innings Adelaide and Chennai for Sehwag.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[pensionplan]

I am glad I made a couple happy here with my foolishness as they see it. Happy to be at your service. You are always welcome. :-)

[pensionplan]

:--D

Let us hope we can all smile even broader when the WC ends for the common good of all the Indian cricket fans. If not we will not only be disappointed at not winning the WC but also have to deal with Tendulkar being the only cricketer in the history of the game to play six WC's without winning one.

[Zap_Brannigan]

Let us hope we can all smile even broader when the WC ends for the common good of all the Indian cricket fans. If not we will not only be disappointed at not winning the WC but also have to deal with Tendulkar being the only cricketer in the history of the game to play six WC's without winning one.

WTF is wrong with you? What does a smiley have to do with Sachin or your fanatic hate for him? We get it. You hate him and you are stupid enough to contradict yourself in the same page. But when you get caught, revoking "I might be wrong but Sachin sucks" is what exactly? Your pathetic attempt to direct the conversation towards "Sachin sucks"?

[pensionplan]

WTF is wrong with you? What does a smiley have to do with Sachin or your fanatic hate for him?

That is the beauty of it keeping my hate for Sachin aside which is very obvious anyway. :-)

[The Outsider]

BB, I'll request you to not respond and divert this thread towards Tendulkar as that is exactly what srtfanaticssuck is attempting. Let's see how far he can get making contradictions based on whether the batsman under question is Miandad or Sehwag. Comparing Miandad to Sehwag is quite frankly a joke, but let's see what new patriot-II brings!

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[pensionplan]

No worries proff. he's got pwned already in that Bradman thread :--D

Anything to boost up your ego and make you feel happy. :-) By the way you never still answered satisfactorily why during Bradman's time period when there were about 400 other FC players he was the only one that averaged close to 100 and none managed to even come close to 65.

[pensionplan]

BB, I'll request you to not respond and divert this thread towards Tendulkar as that is exactly what srtfanaticssuck is attempting.

Hmm..ok. Nice job reading others mind.

Let's see how far he can get making contradictions based on whether the batsman under question is Miandad or Sehwag.

Do not worry about me making contradictions. Just plucking few sentences from various posts and trying to make vice cracks without getting to the underlying point of view of those posts do not mean much.

Comparing Miandad to Sehwag is quite frankly a joke, but let's see what new patriot-II brings!

A joke. Really. I do not know who this patriot is but you sure sound like one.

[Raghav_12]

The Pakistan umpires being blatantly biased towards their players somehow helped Miandad in his overall average is stretching it. While it is true their umpires are very patriotic to a point that had me cringe many a time the bowlers always had other ways to get the batsman out if they are not good enough.

Yes, Bowlers always had other chances to get Miandad out but by the time that other chance happened Miandad would have scored few more runs and which would have pushed his avg by few runs.

I am not the one to buy into all these theories since he was never out LBW for the first few years in Pakistan there was a conscious effort on the part of the umpires to not give him out LBW .

I am not talking about few years here, I am talking about first 9-10 years for which he wasn't given LBW. And these 9-10 years mean more than 60 % of his 17 years long international test career (the duration in which he scored more than 5000 of his test runs, out of 8832) And yes there was conscious effort from umpires to not give LBW against Miandad. I wish I could find a report from Austrlia's tour to Pakistan in 88 or 89, where journalist had made fun of one australian bowler who was appealing for LBW against Miandad.

There are much more stranger records in cricket than that. Besides the visiting teams always had a choice to raise the issue more vehemently and do something about it. The issue should end right there.

Visitor teams did raise their voice (and fingers) against Pak umpires. Google for Shakoor Rana and Mike Gatting.

So it is grossly unfair to link Miandad's accomplishments to drawing favors from the umpires. He would have been a great player even if he played today with neutral umpires against these bowling attacks. This is a man that had two 250+ scores one in England and one in NZ in the 80's.

Individual instances don't matter. Fact is Miandad's away average was more than 25% lower than his home average. His record is poor against best teams of his time. He was good batsman no doubt, but to put in same category as Lara and Sachin, please. Then why leave out Chris Martin :-).

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[The Outsider]

Do not worry about me making contradictions. Just plucking few sentences from various posts and trying to make vice cracks without getting to the underlying point of view of those posts do not mean much.

It's wise cracks, because there was no malice or viciousness in my remarks so they could not have been vice cracks. Underlying point? LOL! In one post you are saying that Sehwag's second innings average of 30 disqualifies him from an all time great status, and when someone points out similar averages of Miandad against the best team of his era you accuse him of cherry picking and start waffling about two innings against WI - one of them against a rookies attack of Ambrose, Walsh, Patterson, and Benjamin with a combined experience of 28 test matches. If you had followed cricket in the 80s you would have known that no one rated Miandad along with Gavaskar, Richards, and Chappell. And no one who watched cricket during that time does so either. But cricinfo has made this wonderful statsguru where people like you can run some queries and find, 'Oh Oh Miandad average as much as Lara, so must have been as good as him'.