3 main selection head aches for Feb 19th

[The Outsider]

You don’t have to requote my old posts back to me. I exactly remember what I said. :winky: When everyone else was clamoring for Kohli instead of Raina, I was the one who said the decsion isnt straight-forward in the first place and that all things considered equal, Raina would have figured in the line-up ahead of Kohli, with the caveat being that the dodgy form of Dhoni and Yuvraj coming into the world is what that could potentially tip the scales in favor of Kohli. How hard is that to understand? :winky:

Statement 1 : Kohli is nearly 100% certain to miss out and I am willing to bet a few quids on it. Statement 2 : The decision is not straight forward and is dependent on some factors. Only in your world can they be the same.

BS. If anything, Yusuf scoring the runs that he did in South Africa was actually your get-out-of-jail card. Even before his innings in the South African series, I was confident that he had it in him to succeed in Indian conditions, which is what is really important here. I’d love to know if you genuinely thought Yusuf had it in him to play the innings he did, in South Africa, against Steyn/Morkel? My premise was that he was always a confidence player whose fortunes rise and fall with his mindset and that, going into the world cup, his form/confidence was peaking at the right time. Your reply to that? – ‘ICF hype machinery was working overtime..’.

It's a pointless discussion, because the fact is Pathan did play and score in South Africa. There is no way to prove that he would have started in the playing XI if he did not. Neither is there a way to prove that he would not have started if he failed. But, yeah, I did not expect Pathan to perform as he did in South Africa. On the basis of that performance he deserves to make the XI, not for getting a confidence boost from $2 million.

What the heck! :hysterical: You’re willing to go by what happened in two warm up games but will completely dismiss what happened across 14 games (which is a significantly more reasonable time-frame to judge bowlers), only 10 months ago on the very same pitches on which a majority of the WC is going to be played? Irrespective of the actual utility of IPL, I think its one of the best avenues to judge how our spinners are faring against attacking batting on flat pitches, which is essentially what they will face in the WC and you’re saying what happened then is completely meaningless? Lol..

Yeah, because current form in actual international cricket, albeit warm up, is more important than what happened 10 months ago in some other sport called IPL.

I’d would like to wait a little longer before deciding one way or the other on Chawla. I think he’s extremely dependent on his googly to fool the batsmen and that’s a potential pitfall you’ve completely ignored.

This is not a bilateral series where we will be playing the same team over and over again. We'll be facing each team once, at the most twice.

[BERGKAMP]

I have no faith in any of our seamers. I can see them all getting smashed around with economy rates of 6+. Go for a trial by spin I say - GOD Sehwag Gambhir Yuvraj Kohli Dhoni Pathan Harbhajan Chawla Ashwin Any one seamer

[kabira]

I now laud Selectors for picking Chawla out of blue over Ojha. We have keep our opposition guessing. Both Ashwin and Chawla have ability to take wickets. Both have variety. Opposition batsman will be studying them. So we should start with Chawla and then bring in Ashwin in crucial games. I must say I was highly impressed with chawla's bowling. The loop, variation, the pace were too good to be true. It was as if everything was coming out nicely for him.

[Ram]

Statement 1 : Kohli is nearly 100% certain to miss out and I am willing to bet a few quids on it. Statement 2 : The decision is not straight forward and is dependent on some factors.

And while you were busy digging up posts from that thread, I hoped you also noticed that, I had actually conceded in the subsequent posts that I do think that the team mgmt. will find it hard to leave out Kohli. But hey, that doesn’t count right? :winky:

It's a pointless discussion, because the fact is Pathan did play and score in South Africa. There is no way to prove that he would have started in the playing XI if he did not. Neither is there a way to prove that he would not have started if he failed.

Absolutetely not. It’s an EXTREMELY relevant question because I didn’t wait till he scored the runs he did against South Africa, before penning his name in for a spot in the WC XI. My premise was ‘The team doesn’t care what he does in South Africa, he’s certain to play in the WC.’. Yours was ‘Well, they’re waiting to see how he fares in South Africa..’. The obvious inference to make there is, you still werent sure about Yusuf’s credentials (vis-à-vis, his potency in the subcontinent). And going by your own admission, you didn’t think he had it in him to score the runs that he did, against South Africa. But by then, I had already said ‘Watch this space, this guy is showing some good signs..’

Yeah, because current form in actual international cricket, albeit warm up, is more important than what happened 10 months ago in some other sport called IPL.

2 games = current form? Are you serious? You havent seen Chawla bowl in a really flat track yet (which is probably what he will be confronted with, if he plays in the WC). He bowled on two pitches that have been rather notorious for offering unsually more spin than normal (for the B’lore track against Australia, even Dhoni went to the extent of saying he preferred pitches that offered lesser spin for ODIs). The Indian pacers, put together probably bowled only around 30 overs in these two games put together. Even by their rather patchy standards bowling in India in ODIs in the last 15-18 months, that is a suscpiciously low number, which only confirms that the pitches had more in it than usual, for the spinners. Yet, what Chawla did in those games is enough to convince you? Besides, I love the way you dimiss the entire notion of IPL. It happened 10 months ago, not 10 years ago. This was the best chance to see all our players perform in the same platform, in the same conditons against the same opponents, across several games. But hey, that doesn’t count right? What counts is two warm-up games. Again, I am not going to hold Chawla’s performance in the previous edition of IPL against him that much. I think he was surprisingly good, especially in the game against Australia. But his performances in IPL gives me doubt, because those pitches werent as spin friendly and he didn’t really come off that well.

This is not a bilateral series where we will be playing the same team over and over again. We'll be facing each team once, at the most twice.

Not sure what relevance that has to our conversation, but if you insist, please humor me.

[The Outsider]

And while you were busy digging up posts from that thread, I hoped you also noticed that, I had actually conceded in the subsequent posts that I do think that the team mgmt. will find it hard to leave out Kohli. But hey, that doesn’t count right? :winky:

Not really, this is your final post from the thread : http://indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1288987&postcount=21 All I see there is that the final ODI XI has already been decided by the team management etc. And just to clarify this is not about getting predictions right, but about this supposed mystical understanding of the team management you claim to have and harp on every now and then.

Absolutetely not. It’s an EXTREMELY relevant question because I didn’t wait till he scored the runs he did against South Africa, before penning his name in for a spot in the WC XI. My premise was ‘The team doesn’t care what he does in South Africa, he’s certain to play in the WC.’. Yours was ‘Well, they’re waiting to see how he fares in South Africa..’. The obvious inference to make there is, you still werent sure about Yusuf’s credentials (vis-à-vis, his potency in the subcontinent). And going by your own admission, you didn’t think he had it in him to score the runs that he did, against South Africa. But by then, I had already said ‘Watch this space, this guy is showing some good signs..’

Whether the question is relevant or not, the answer cannot be arrived at. It could only have been answered if one of the following happened : 1. Pathan did not play in SA and started in the XI for the WC. 2. Pathan played and flopped in SA and started in the XI for the WC. 3. Pathan played and flopped in SA and did not start in the XI for the WC. You can keep on saying Pathan's spot is a result of his hundred against NZ and $2 million dollars and I can keep saying that it's a result of his performance in SA. And we can keep reiterating this till cows come home, but none of us can prove our point.

2 games = current form? Are you serious? You havent seen Chawla bowl in a really flat track yet (which is probably what he will be confronted with, if he plays in the WC). He bowled on two pitches that have been rather notorious for offering unsually more spin than normal (for the B’lore track against Australia, even Dhoni went to the extent of saying he preferred pitches that offered lesser spin for ODIs). The Indian pacers, put together probably bowled only around 30 overs in these two games put together. Even by their rather patchy standards bowling in India in ODIs in the last 15-18 months, that is a suscpiciously low number, which only confirms that the pitches had more in it than usual, for the spinners. Yet, what Chawla did in those games is enough to convince you? Besides, I love the way you dimiss the entire notion of IPL. It happened 10 months ago, not 10 years ago. This was the best chance to see all our players perform in the same platform, in the same conditons against the same opponents, across several games. But hey, that doesn’t count right? What counts is two warm-up games. Again, I am not going to hold Chawla’s performance in the previous edition of IPL against him that much. I think he was surprisingly good, especially in the game against Australia. But his performances in IPL gives me doubt, because those pitches werent as spin friendly and he didn’t really come off that well.

Firstly, only you appear so certain that the WC will be played on completely flat tracks. I don't see it that way at all. For India's matches against major opposition I can only see Nagpur and Ahmedabad as being complete pattas. I expect Bangalore, Madras, Mohali, and Bombay to have something in them for the bowlers. I don't see how Bangalore and Madras which have offered turn in all the warm up matches will suddenly become out and out batting paradises. And Bombay always turns, regardless. Secondly, Ashwin also bowled on the same tracks and looked much less of a threat than Chawla. Perhaps India will pick Chawla on a turner and Ashwin on a flat pitch.

Not sure what relevance that has to our conversation, but if you insist, please humor me.

I assumed you were saying that repeated exposure of Chawla to the batsmen will make them familiar with his googly. But there won't be a repeated exposure given the format of the tournament.

[Ram]

Not really, this is your final post from the thread : http://indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1288987&postcount=21 All I see there is that the final ODI XI has already been decided by the team management etc. And just to clarify this is not about getting predictions right, but about this supposed mystical understanding of the team management you claim to have and harp on every now and then.

I don’t have mystical understandings of anythng. It isnt that hard to predict what our team is going to do, based on their past behaviour and current tell-tale signs. And I have had my fair share of occasions where I have been proven right, of course with siginificant number of occasions when they don’t turn out as I had expected. When I see threads that say Bhajji should be dropped from the Indian team, of course it is going to ellicit a sarcastic reaction from because I understand the role/value that Bhajji adds to the team, which most other posters ignore (and consequently, go only by numbers..). And now, again, when I come across discussions that suggest Yuvraj’s place is in the side is in danger, I can only laugh because I know the team is not even at the cusp of having a debate about his place in the ODI side.

Whether the question is relevant or not, the answer cannot be arrived at. It could only have been answered if one of the following happened : 1. Pathan did not play in SA and started in the XI for the WC. 2. Pathan played and flopped in SA and started in the XI for the WC. 3. Pathan played and flopped in SA and did not start in the XI for the WC. You can keep on saying Pathan's spot is a result of his hundred against NZ and $2 million dollars and I can keep saying that it's a result of his performance in SA. And we can keep reiterating this till cows come home, but none of us can prove our point.

No, but you keep missing the most important point here – I had reiterated my stand that Yusuf had it in him to come good based solely on his NZ performance and the off-field events. You had to wait till he batted in South Africa to make up you mind. A clear difference in judgement there.

Firstly, only you appear so certain that the WC will be played on completely flat tracks. I don't see it that way at all. For India's matches against major opposition I can only see Nagpur and Ahmedabad as being complete pattas. I expect Bangalore, Madras, Mohali, and Bombay to have something in them for the bowlers. I don't see how Bangalore and Madras which have offered turn in all the warm up matches will suddenly become out and out batting paradises. And Bombay always turns, regardless. Secondly, Ashwin also bowled on the same tracks and looked much less of a threat than Chawla. Perhaps India will pick Chawla on a turner and Ashwin on a flat pitch.

I don’t agree with that at all. This is too much a high-stake, high visibility tournament for them to mess around with undercooked pitches. How do you know the same pitches used for the warm-ups will be used for the actual tournament? I am pretty sure the pitches will be similar to the ones we’ve had in the previous tournaments. And mind you, if the choice is between Ashwin and Chawla, lets remind ourselves that we’re talking about the 2nd spinner’s spot, which automatically means we will be playing only 2 pacers. So, in every likelihood, a spinner has to come into action in the 2nd, or even the 1st powerplay. Bhajji doesn’t like to bowl in the power-plays, which automatically brings us to the next question – who among Chawla, Aswhin is better at bowling in power-plays. The answer is self-evident I think.

I assumed you were saying that repeated exposure of Chawla to the batsmen will make them familiar with his googly. But there won't be a repeated exposure given the format of the tournament.

Ok, I see what you say here. I meant – teams like Lanka and Pakistan, who are more accomplished at playing spin bowling will find the going easy against him, because once they figure out his googly, his wrist spin bowling is a lot less menacing.

[The Outsider]

No, but you keep missing the most important point here – I had reiterated my stand that Yusuf had it in him to come good based solely on his NZ performance and the off-field events. You had to wait till he batted in South Africa to make up you mind. A clear difference in judgement there.

Most important? That isn't even a point of discussion. Predicting that Pathan will be a success based on his NZ performance is a completely different topic from predicting that the team management will play Pathan in the WC XI based solely on that performance, even if he flops in SA or does not play in SA.

I don’t agree with that at all. This is too much a high-stake, high visibility tournament for them to mess around with undercooked pitches. How do you know the same pitches used for the warm-ups will be used for the actual tournament? I am pretty sure the pitches will be similar to the ones we’ve had in the previous tournaments.

There is a huge spectrum of pitches available between undercooked and outright pattas. I am not saying the same pitches will be used as the ones in the warm up, but it is still the same square. The basic preparation of a square is still the same and then closer to the match the curator picks out on of the pitches from the square for the match and tends to it. You have to be mindful that a lot of these pitches have been relaid for the WC and are not the same that you might have seen a year or two back.

And mind you, if the choice is between Ashwin and Chawla, lets remind ourselves that we’re talking about the 2nd spinner’s spot, which automatically means we will be playing only 2 pacers. So, in every likelihood, a spinner has to come into action in the 2nd, or even the 1st powerplay. Bhajji doesn’t like to bowl in the power-plays, which automatically brings us to the next question – who among Chawla, Aswhin is better at bowling in power-plays. The answer is self-evident I think.

Harbhajan did a good job in the PP overs during the T20 WC. It's not like if they decide to go with Chawla, Harbhajan will say 'Screw you guys, I am going home because I don't like bowling in the PP'. If a decision is made to play Chawla on the basis of the pitch/opposition, it's a given that Harbhajan will have to bowl in the PP as Chawla is not experienced in that regards.

Ok, I see what you say here. I meant – teams like Lanka and Pakistan, who are more accomplished at playing spin bowling will find the going easy against him, because once they figure out his googly, his wrist spin bowling is a lot less menacing.

I won't even play 2 spinners against these two teams, unless the pitch is a genuine turner.

[Ram]

Most important? That isn't even a point of discussion. Predicting that Pathan will be a success based on his NZ performance is a completely different topic from predicting that the team management will play Pathan in the WC XI based solely on that performance, even if he flops in SA or does not play in SA.

Yes, and I actually had points of view on both the issues; a)I said Pathan’s 100 against NZ and his IPL bonanza was enough to lift his spirits and boost his performance. I am sure you will agree that proved to be right, even though you laughed at that suggestion when it was first made. b)When I said the team management will play for the WC irrespective of what happened in the South Africa, it was based on the fact that he was dropped for the first ODI against South Africa, the very next game after he played that innings against NZ. And no, I don’t buy your reason was ‘waiting around for slower pitches before exposing him..’. Selecting/dropping batsmen from teams based on the pitch conditions maybe commonplace in tests, but it rarely ever happens in Odis. Plus, I don’t even agree that the pitch for the first ODI was quick, while those for the matches he played, were slow. And to back my case, Yusuf took body-blows from bouncers in both the matches where he played those good innings. I doubt if you can term those pitches ‘slow’.

There is a huge spectrum of pitches available between undercooked and outright pattas. I am not saying the same pitches will be used as the ones in the warm up, but it is still the same square. The basic preparation of a square is still the same and then closer to the match the curator picks out on of the pitches from the square for the match and tends to it. You have to be mindful that a lot of these pitches have been relaid for the WC and are not the same that you might have seen a year or two back.

We’re not going anywhere with this arguing in the grey areas about spectrums and using terms like ‘something in it..’. I will make myself clear that the pitches for the WC matches will be 280-290+ (minimum) ones. To me, that’s qualifies as a flat pitch. We’ve already seen a significant difference in the tracks in games played by two of the same sides, with the same batting order, in the same ground, in a gap of less than 2 months. I am talking about the match NZ played in Chennai last year versus this warm-up. In that match, they were bowled out for 125. In this one, they were 80 for no loss in 10. A clear difference of ease of batting there. That Chennai track used for the warm-up was nowhere near as menacing as the one used for the in ODI series last. Hence, I still maintain that come the start of the tournament, status quo will be restored and we will have good tracks.

Harbhajan did a good job in the PP overs during the T20 WC. It's not like if they decide to go with Chawla, Harbhajan will say 'Screw you guys, I am going home because I don't like bowling in the PP'. If a decision is made to play Chawla on the basis of the pitch/opposition, it's a given that Harbhajan will have to bowl in the PP as Chawla is not experienced in that regards.

Bhajji rarely bowls in PP overs in ODIs. In fact, when Jadeja was in the team in his ‘all-rounder’ role, he was the one who took the major responsibilities of bowling in the first 15 overs, when a spinner was called into operation. Same with Aswhin. He is the first choice bowler in the PP overs, not just because Ashwin is very accomplished at doing that, but also because the team like to keep Bhajji for latter half of the innings, in case things get close. What makes you think things will be different if Chawla is in the side?

I won't even play 2 spinners against these two teams, unless the pitch is a genuine turner.

Maybe, but that isn’t what we’re talking about here.

[The Outsider]

a)I said Pathan’s 100 against NZ and his IPL bonanza was enough to lift his spirits and boost his performance. I am sure you will agree that proved to be right, even though you laughed at that suggestion when it was first made.

Agree on that.

b)When I said the team management will play for the WC irrespective of what happened in the South Africa, it was based on the fact that he was dropped for the first ODI against South Africa, the very next game after he played that innings against NZ. And no, I don’t buy your reason was ‘waiting around for slower pitches before exposing him..’. Selecting/dropping batsmen from teams based on the pitch conditions maybe commonplace in tests, but it rarely ever happens in Odis. Plus, I don’t even agree that the pitch for the first ODI was quick, while those for the matches he played, were slow. And to back my case, Yusuf took body-blows from bouncers in both the matches where he played those good innings. I doubt if you can term those pitches ‘slow’.

Exactly what I said earlier. We can keep on typing on this till cows come home, but none of us can prove our contention simply because of the way events panned out. But at the very least this much can be said with certainty - the ODI batting line up for the starting game of the WC was not written down in stone at that point as you were claiming. Case in point - Kohli. And you would have to be seriously deluded to think that Raina would be the one facing the chop if Pathan had flopped in SA and Raina had scored 2-3 50-70s+ in the series.

We’re not going anywhere with this arguing in the grey areas about spectrums and using terms like ‘something in it..’. I will make myself clear that the pitches for the WC matches will be 280-290+ (minimum) ones. To me, that’s qualifies as a flat pitch. We’ve already seen a significant difference in the tracks in games played by two of the same sides, with the same batting order, in the same ground, in a gap of less than 2 months. I am talking about the match NZ played in Chennai last year versus this warm-up. In that match, they were bowled out for 125. In this one, they were 80 for no loss in 10. A clear difference of ease of batting there. That Chennai track used for the warm-up was nowhere near as menacing as the one used for the in ODI series last. Hence, I still maintain that come the start of the tournament, status quo will be restored and we will have good tracks.

Pattas are a bit different from the 280 pitches you are talking about. In these days of lower order power hitting and batting power plays, 280 pitches are pretty common even in Australia and England. A patta wicket for me would be a 320+ track. A 280 track in India will still give some assistance to spin bowling and will not be an up and down highway.

Bhajji rarely bowls in PP overs in ODIs. In fact, when Jadeja was in the team in his ‘all-rounder’ role, he was the one who took the major responsibilities of bowling in the first 15 overs, when a spinner was called into operation. Same with Aswhin. He is the first choice bowler in the PP overs, not just because Ashwin is very accomplished at doing that, but also because the team like to keep Bhajji for latter half of the innings, in case things get close. What makes you think things will be different if Chawla is in the side?

If Chawla plays then Harbhajan will bowl in the PPs because : 1. Chawla has no experience of bowling in the PP 2. Harbhajan has successfully bowled in the PP in the past, even if not frequently. 3. A leg spinner is a bigger gamble in the PP.

Maybe, but that isn’t what we’re talking about here.

Against other teams familiarity of the googly is a non issue then.