Sachin's centuries and India's defeats.

[CSK Fan]

see thats what I mean the imaginary 'pwnage' that only an idiot or a moron like yourself could see and comfort himself with... And the 'pwnage' like these, I dont care about..... bbye for now, sleeping time!!

I see the pwnage too. I must also be an idiot or a moron I guess

[vaibhav_delhi]

You have again not explained how its Sachin's fault when a team scores 338 and is not able to defend it? Also' date=' its lgical to assume that the more frequently someone scores a 100, the more likely the winning % to go down[/quote'] kya yarr...just talking abt the feel-good factor...And for the Nth time, Not sachin's faults, read my previous posts.... Aise to jin matches mai usne 100 banae, kya pata uske bina bhi india jeet jaati...

[vaibhav_delhi]

I see the pwnage too. I must also be an idiot or a moron I guess

yeps...coz its not!!

[asterix]

We all can see the PWNAGE.. And to HELL WITH FEEL GOOD FACTOR.. Effing I don't get any feel good factor watching Dhoni screwing up India's chances left, right & center..I don't talk about his lack of 80 to 85% winning ratio and especially in ICC events..

[CSK Fan]

kya yarr...just talking abt the feel-good factor...And for the Nth time, Not sachin's faults, read my previous posts.... Aise to jin matches mai usne 100 banae, kya pata uske bina bhi india jeet jaati...

You can say this about any century I guess. Just because a player has a higher percentage of centuries in win, doesnt mean that he contributed more to each win. Thats false logic

[pinkfreud]

This thread is going nowhere because of the few people who are hell bent on tying our defeats with Sachin's 100s. When SA was batting, the one fielder who really stood out in my view was Sachin. He gave his 100% and was desperate to curb SA's flow of runs, you could really see his determination when he was running around the ground. Sounds a lot like a selfish player to me

[Bumper]

Few comments: 1) If Sachin scores a 100 & the game is lost, clearly the fault is elsewhere, not with him. Saying that his 100s don't enhance the chance of India winning is laughable for anyone who follows the game. Whichever way you look at it, a run a ball 100 by an opener sets up a perfect platform for the batsmen to build tall totals. From then on, winning & losing is up to the team. 2) Why does Sachin have many 100s in losing causes ? No, its not bad luck. When you score 48 of them, some of them are going to end up in losing causes anyways, esp, given India's weak bowling resources. 3) Why does Sachin score his first 50 faster than the second one ? Its the way the ODI game is played, stupid! It starts with power plays when fielders are in (= better boundary opportunities), followed by middle overs (when the innings consolidates) and then the death (by which time Tendu usually departs). So his second 50 will almost always be slower than the first. 4) As for Sachin slowing down near 100, a while ago there was an article on cricinfo that proved the opposite. SRT's SR between 70-100, 80-100 etc were among the highest (higher than some of his Aussie contemporaries) Personally from my experience watching the game, every player loves to get a century. After having worked so hard to get to 90s, with a 100 just few runs away most would prefer to cut off risks to get there & then lay into the bowling attack after reaching the milestone. This is how 90% of the batsmen approach their 100s. You see Sachin in such situations more often because (a) He scores more 100s than others (b) Being a superstar whatever he does is subjected to that extra bit of scrutiny or adulation. Overall, cricketers are humans, not machines. Its perfectly ok to reach individual milestones, as long as it does not come at the expense of the team. SRT's overall SR has been very good, so just shut up and enjoy it, while it lasts!

[ganeshran]

Few comments: 1) If Sachin scores a 100 & the game is lost, clearly the fault is elsewhere, not with him. Saying that his 100s don't enhance the chance of India winning is laughable for anyone who follows the game. Whichever way you look at it, a run a ball 100 by an opener sets up a perfect platform for the batsmen to build tall totals. From then on, winning & losing is up to the team. 2) Why does Sachin have many 100s in losing causes ? No, its not bad luck. When you score 48 of them, some of them are going to end up in losing causes anyways, esp, given India's weak bowling resources. 3) Why does Sachin score his first 50 faster than the second one ? Its the way the ODI game is played, stupid! It starts with power plays when fielders are in (= better boundary opportunities), followed by middle overs (when the innings consolidates) and then the death (by which time Tendu usually departs). So his second 50 will almost always be slower than the first. 4) As for Sachin slowing down near 100, a while ago there was an article on cricinfo that proved the opposite. SRT's SR between 70-100, 80-100 etc were among the highest (higher than some of his Aussie contemporaries) Personally from my experience watching the game, every player loves to get a century. After having worked so hard to get to 90s, with a 100 just few runs away most would prefer to cut off risks to get there & then lay into the bowling attack after reaching the milestone. This is how 90% of the batsmen approach their 100s. Cricketers after all are humans, not machines. Its perfectly ok to reach individual milestones, as long as it does not come at the expense of the team. SRT's overall SR has been very good, so just shut up and enjoy it, while it lasts!

Very well put :nice:

[Mariyam]

Wonderful thread. And some good well thought out points from both the sides. Here are my 2 cents: Centuries can't be tied in with a player being a match winner or not. Centuries are just a number. Sachin may score a match winning 70 in 30 balls while chasing a target of 120. And so on. A matchwinner's greatness should be measured in his moments of magic on the field. No stat can capture that essence. But if we have to rely on stats, here is a suggestion: 1. Set a time period. Last 5 years, last 10 years or from the time Sachin started playing. 2. In this period, note down the team total and Sachin's score in every ODI played in which he got to bat. 3. For each match, compute % of team runs that Sachin scores. 4. Take an average of all these % of team runs scored by Sachin. 4 Do the same for the matches that India wins. Now, if we find that Sachin's % contribution to the team total is more when India has won, then we can say that when Sachin contributes better than his average relative to the team, the team has a better chance of winning. For example, if in the last 5 years Sachins average is 25% of team runs scored, but in the games India won it is 35%, then maybe we can conclude that he is a match winner. Right? How much more that % of team runs should be between the overall matches and the games India won is up for debate. How is this for an idea? PS: Don't bring your knives out at me. I'm pretty poor at maths and all this stuff. If you don't think it makes sense, just ignore it. :P

[Raghav_12]

Take Kenya and BD out, india wins only 63% of the matches when sachin scores a Ton against top teams. It should be arnd 85% for a hundred to be really useful.... Total hundreds against top teams(38): http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=start;runsmin1=100;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting;view=match Hundreds in a winning cause(24): http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=start;result=1;runsmin1=100;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting;view=match Indias Win percentage against top 7 team in last 5 years in 56%. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=won;result=1;result=2;result=3;spanmin1=05+Jan+2006;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=team Hence, Sachin scoring a ton DOES NOT increase Indias chances of winning by much.

Dude.. I know you try to bash Sachin but don't play with numbers just to achieve your objective of Tendulkar Bashing. Do you think everybody is fool here to take whatever numbers you throw? When counting Sachin's centuries, you considered his centuries and winning %, across all of his career. But when you calculating India's winning %, you taking numbers only for last 5 years. Should not you be using the same sample to see the effect of any particular thing? I know it is fool-hardy to justify Sachin's importance for Indian team, that too when he has produced another of his gems, yet let me correct these numbers. From the time Sachin started playing he has scored 63% of his centuries in winning cause, as you presented correctly. Now from the time Sachin has started playing India has won only 47% of it's matches. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=won;result=1;result=2;result=3;spanmin1=15+Jan+1989;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=team So winning % increases from 47% to 63% when Sachin scores a century against top nation and this is a significant number, though it could have been even better had team supported him more in all these years.

[gult]

99 international centuries playing for team INDIA and there are still enough losers to question his contribution!! I am sad that sachin is representing a country full of such losers.

[jibranpatel15]

This is rubbish yaar. Sachin has scored 48 ODI hundreds. neither did India lose even in half of them. India have lost 43 games out of 48 when Sachin has scored 100+ and 2 are NR so 33 wins to 13 loss is not a big deal and 1 scores a hundred then what the others are doing in team. A team can not loose when player like Sachin scores 100 at less than run a ball man.

[vaibhav_delhi]

Dude.. I know you try to bash Sachin but don't play with numbers just to achieve your objective of Tendulkar Bashing. Do you think everybody is fool here to take whatever numbers you throw? When counting Sachin's centuries, you considered his centuries and winning %, across all of his career. But when you calculating India's winning %, you taking numbers only for last 5 years. Should not you be using the same sample to see the effect of any particular thing? I know it is fool-hardy to justify Sachin's importance for Indian team, that too when he has produced another of his gems, yet let me correct these numbers. From the time Sachin started playing he has scored 63% of his centuries in winning cause, as you presented correctly. Now from the time Sachin has started playing India has won only 47% of it's matches. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=won;result=1;result=2;result=3;spanmin1=15+Jan+1989;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=team So winning % increases from 47% to 63% when Sachin scores a century against top nation and this is a significant number, though it could have been even better had team supported him more in all these years.

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1366569&postcount=46 :winky:

[Raghav_12]

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1366569&postcount=46 :winky:

This is different post you talking about. Don't you admit that you tried to mislead people in the post which I quoted in my post above?

[vaibhav_delhi]

This is different post you talking about. Don't you admit that you tried to mislead people in the post which I quoted in my post above?

Yeah I happened to mislead people in the sense that its 50% for proper comparison and not 63%. . :winky:

[Raghav_12]

Yeah I happened to mislead people in the sense that its 50% for proper comparison and not 63%. . :winky:

Atleast on a internet forum where people debate anonymously, have honesty to admit mistake when you make one. You blatantly tried to skew numbers just to strengthen your argument and when caught, you trying to evade through smileys or by giving irrelevant answers.

[vaibhav_delhi]

Wonderful thread. And some good well thought out points from both the sides. Here are my 2 cents: Centuries can't be tied in with a player being a match winner or not. Centuries are just a number. Sachin may score a match winning 70 in 30 balls while chasing a target of 120. And so on. A matchwinner's greatness should be measured in his moments of magic on the field. No stat can capture that essence. But if we have to rely on stats, here is a suggestion: 1. Set a time period. Last 5 years, last 10 years or from the time Sachin started playing. 2. In this period, note down the team total and Sachin's score in every ODI played in which he got to bat. 3. For each match, compute % of team runs that Sachin scores. 4. Take an average of all these % of team runs scored by Sachin. 4 Do the same for the matches that India wins. Now, if we find that Sachin's % contribution to the team total is more when India has won, then we can say that when Sachin contributes better than his average relative to the team, the team has a better chance of winning. For example, if in the last 5 years Sachins average is 25% of team runs scored, but in the games India won it is 35%, then maybe we can conclude that he is a match winner. Right? How much more that % of team runs should be between the overall matches and the games India won is up for debate. How is this for an idea? PS: Don't bring your knives out at me. I'm pretty poor at maths and all this stuff. If you don't think it makes sense, just ignore it. :P

Thats a fair suggestion but its a very time consuming and boring job. and anyways I think all of us(including me) already believe that sachin is a match-winner...

[vaibhav_delhi]

Atleast on a internet forum where people debate anonymously have honesty to admit mistake when you make one. You blatantly tried to skew numbers just to strengthen your argument and when caught you trying to evade through smileys or giving irrelevant answers.

Wrong. I brought out sachin's last 5 year record when BB hinted that that would be more appropriate and I agreed to that. And as you can see, this only re-enforced my point...

[Raghav_12]

Wrong. I brought out sachin's last 5 year record when BB hinted that that would be more appropriate and I agreed to that. And as you can see, this only re-enforced my point...

I have no problem with your other post where you put numbers for last 5 years for both the aspects. That's a valid point and which may or may not be explained through different counter-arguments. But I had problem with your another post where you doubted common intelligence and quantitative acumen of ICF users and tried to take them for a ride.

[dnmaru]

Poor Scahin ... How can u blame him for losing last nine wickets for 29 runs ....