Some more myths busted...

[Ultimate_Game]

Read a very interesting article on cricinfo regarding the top performers (both players and teams) who performed well against the two great dynasties in cricket - WI in 80s & 90s, and Aus in 2000s and you will see some interesting stats. Here's the link to the article... http://blogs.espncricinfo.com/itfigures/archives/2011/05/the_best_batsmen_against_top_w.php Here are some of the observations... 1. Teams who performed well against dominating WI Australia 714 52 21923 33.12 India 420 36 12037 31.35 New Zealand 196 18 5497 30.88 South Africa 80 6 2190 29.59 England 789 49 21655 29.26 Pakistan 331 22 8774 28.39 Sri Lanka 39 4 927 26.49 Zimbabwe 28 1 525 19.44 I was surprized to see India actually performed quite well against the WI team. This also puts to rest the argument of Paki fans how "great" their team was in 80s and 90s and how Pak was the only team to give WI a run for their money. 2. Now onto players who performed well against WI... Cty Batsman Career M I No Runs-Avge Runs - Avge % to Avge (Unadjusted) (Adjusted) CarAvg Aus Chappell G.S 53.86 12 23 5 (1058-58.78) 1009.5 - 56.09 109.1% Eng Gooch G.A 42.58 26 51 2 (2197-44.84) 2439.2 - 49.78 105.3% Eng Smith R.A 43.67 19 35 5 (1333-44.43) 1453.4 - 48.45 101.7% Ind Gavaskar S.M 51.12 21 36 3 (1867-56.58) 1578.3 - 47.83 110.7% Aus Waugh S.R 51.06 24 41 5 (1617-44.92) 1689.7 - 46.94 88.0% Aus Border A.R 50.56 31 59 7 (2052-39.46) 2181.8 - 41.96 78.0% Aus Waugh M.E 41.82 23 40 2 (1519-39.97) 1594.0 - 41.95 95.6% Aus Boon D.C 43.66 22 40 4 (1437-39.92) 1501.9 - 41.72 91.4% Ind Vengsarkar D.B 42.13 24 40 4 (1596-44.33) 1454.7 - 40.41 105.2% Eng Stewart A.J 39.56 24 43 3 (1476-36.90) 1606.0 - 40.15 93.3% Eng Thorpe G.P 44.66 20 36 3 (1180-35.76) 1262.7 - 38.26 80.1% Eng Gower D.I 44.25 19 38 3 (1149-32.83) 1310.2 - 37.44 74.2% Eng Lamb A.J 36.09 22 42 3 (1342-34.41) 1437.0 - 36.85 95.3% Ind Amarnath M 42.50 17 30 2 (1076-38.43) 1018.0 - 36.36 90.4% Eng Atherton M.A 37.70 27 50 0 (1587-31.74) 1707.2 - 34.14 84.2% Aus Wood G.M 31.83 17 33 1 (1077-33.66) 1064.9 - 33.28 105.7% Eng Hick G.A 31.32 18 33 2 ( 910-29.35) 1000.2 - 32.27 93.7% Aus Taylor M.A 43.50 20 37 2 ( 984-28.11) 1054.4 - 30.13 64.6% Ind Shastri R.J 35.79 18 33 5 ( 847-30.25) 838.4 - 29.94 84.5% Pak Javed Miandad 52.57 16 28 0 ( 834-29.79) 823.9 - 29.42 56.7% Ind Kapil Dev N 31.05 23 39 4 (1079-30.83) 1000.6 - 28.59 99.3% Aus Healy I.A 27.40 28 48 5 ( 960-22.33) 1039.4 - 24.17 81.5% Ind Gaekwad A.D 30.08 19 32 1 ( 812-26.19) 702.1 - 22.65 87.1% Surprizingly India has a few batsmen in the list and surprize surprize nobody showed up from the team who is supposed to be the team to have "competed" against the WI. In fact Kapil's performance against the top team of his time shows why he was a better all-rounder than Imran. Performing nearly as well as Miandad against WI shows he was a pretty good batsman. 3. Now moving on against Australian team of 2000s. The top teams were... India 400 33 13658 37.22 England 790 45 24837 33.34 West Indies 551 40 16998 33.26 Sri Lanka 235 14 7218 32.66 South Africa 318 18 9648 32.16 Pakistan 315 11 9520 31.32 New Zealand 364 21 10378 30.26 Bangladesh 56 1 1562 28.40 Zimbabwe 42 0 1014 24.14 Again no surprizes with India way better than other teams against Aussies. 4. Players who performed well against Aussies... Cty Batsman Career M I No Runs-Avge Runs - Avge % to Avge (Unadjusted) (Adjusted) CarAvg Ind Tendulkar S.R 56.95 25 47 5 (2352-56.00) 2371.5 - 56.46 98.3% Ind Sehwag V 53.43 11 22 1 (1132-53.90) 1167.7 - 55.60 100.9% Win Lara B.C 52.89 31 58 2 (2856-51.00) 3064.6 - 54.72 96.4% Ind Laxman V.V.S 47.32 20 37 1 (1823-50.64) 1927.5 - 53.54 107.0% Win Chanderpaul S 48.99 15 29 4 (1210-48.40) 1267.3 - 50.69 98.8% Pak Ijaz Ahmed 37.67 14 25 2 (1085-47.17) 1093.4 - 47.54 125.2% Eng Thorpe G.P 44.66 16 31 4 (1235-45.74) 1270.9 - 47.07 102.4% Ind Dravid R 52.45 23 43 5 (1740-45.79) 1773.4 - 46.67 87.3% Win Richardson R.B 44.40 19 34 3 (1612-52.00) 1441.4 - 46.50 117.1% Saf Kallis J.H 57.44 18 35 4 (1188-38.32) 1329.8 - 42.90 66.7% Eng Hussain N 37.19 23 45 4 (1581-38.56) 1743.7 - 42.53 103.7% Eng Gower D.I 44.25 16 29 2 (1194-44.22) 1061.9 - 39.33 99.9% Eng Trescothick M.E 43.76 15 30 0 (1013-33.77) 1172.1 - 39.07 77.2% Eng Butcher M.A 34.58 20 40 1 (1287-33.00) 1501.3 - 38.50 95.4% Eng Gooch G.A 42.58 20 39 0 (1527-39.15) 1476.1 - 37.85 91.9% Win Haynes D.L 42.30 15 27 2 (1072-42.88) 935.3 - 37.41 101.4% Saf Kirsten G 45.27 18 34 1 (1134-34.36) 1224.7 - 37.11 75.9% Eng Smith R.A 43.67 15 30 3 (1074-39.78) 1001.1 - 37.08 91.1% Eng Stewart A.J 39.56 33 65 6 (1810-30.68) 2001.7 - 33.93 77.6% Ind Ganguly S.C 42.18 20 36 2 (1079-31.74) 1095.9 - 32.23 75.2% Eng Atherton M.A 37.70 33 66 2 (1900-29.69) 1968.8 - 30.76 78.8% Win Hooper C.L 36.47 25 43 1 (1095-26.07) 1079.6 - 25.70 71.5% Guess what! Most of Indian "flat track bullies" showed up on the list with only Ijaz Ahmed from that "great" team and absolutely nobody from Sri Lanka! The article is an amazing read for a cricket fan and I recommend do go through the article.

[ganeshran]

But Pakistan's strength (and even now) was its bowling and never batting. So the second statistic is not a comprehensive one. The first I agree. We always seem to have lifted our games against the big guns.

[The Outsider]

You're using the loony case Anantha Narayanan's blog to show something? :hysterical:

[Ultimate_Game]

You're using the loony case Anantha Narayanan's blog to show something? :hysterical:

Loony he may be but at least he backs his findings with facts instead of coming with an argument which goes - we were "great" in 90s or we were the team 2nd best to WI or we gave WI run for their money in 90s. To me these stats came as an eye opener as I always thought we were not such good players of pace bowling before Tendulkar and company came by. But the stats actually show that barring Aus we were pretty good and if we are known as folks who couldn't play pace then show me who actually is/was better than us.

[CSK Fan]

Can we also have the bowling stats too?

[Ultimate_Game]

But Pakistan's strength (and even now) was its bowling and never batting. So the second statistic is not a comprehensive one. The first I agree. We always seem to have lifted our games against the big guns.

Well as per Paki fans they had a "great" batting lineup in 80s and 90s with the likes of Miandad, Anwar etc. This stat blows that myth to smithereens. Essentially against better teams and when the going got tough Miandad was no better than Shastri and rest of the players don't even get a mention.

[Ultimate_Game]

Can we also have the bowling stats too?

I will wait for Mr. Narayanan to do so.

[Cricket Tragic]

Well as per Paki fans they had a "great" batting lineup in 80s and 90s with the likes of Miandad' date= Anwar etc. This stat blows that myth to smithereens. Essentially against better teams and when the going got tough Miandad was no better than Shastri and rest of the players don't even get a mention.

Miandad was useless against the WI pace attack.

[Ultimate_Game]

Miandad was useless against the WI pace attack.

Not according to Pakis and as far as these stats show, all Paki batsmen have been useless against quality bowling. And they have the temerity to call batsmen like Sehwag, Tendulkar etc. as flat track bullies, choker etc. :cantstop: Oh the irony :hysterical:

[ganeshran]

Well as per Paki fans they had a "great" batting lineup in 80s and 90s with the likes of Miandad' date=' Anwar etc. This stat blows that myth to smithereens. Essentially against better teams and when the going got tough Miandad was no better than Shastri and rest of the players don't even get a mention.[/quote'] Well their thinking doesnt make it right. Pakistan never had a completely solid batting lineup. They have had decent batsmen like Anwar, Miandad, Inzi, Moyo etc, but never has the entire lineup been strong. It is their bowling which wins them matches, not their batting.

[Number]

UG my post in other thread gave you bit inspi for this no ??

[Alchemist]

Why do we have some many threads to show Pakistan down ? We are the world champions and we should enjoy it. There is no point shoing them down. They know it, we know it and the world know it as to who is the top team right now. If people want to bask in past glory, they can do so. Everybody does that at some point or the other. Heck, even Urugway had a better head to head record against brazil till 1940. Now there is no compatison.

[Ultimate_Game]

Well their thinking doesnt make it right. Pakistan never had a completely solid batting lineup. They have had decent batsmen like Anwar, Miandad, Inzi, Moyo etc, but never has the entire lineup been strong. It is their bowling which wins them matches, not their batting.

Their bowling may have been better than their batting but IMO it is and was overrated. They had Wasim & Waqar but didn't have anyone else to back them up. When Saqlain showed up Waqar was over the hill and Wasim was in decline. They never had the bowling lineup like WI with 4 world class bowlers or even like Aus with 2 world class bowlers (McGrath and Warne) backed by 2 very good/competent bowlers (combination of Gillespie, Lee, Stuart MacGill, Kasprowicz etc.) Pakistani bowling looked much better than it was owing to its "home umpiring" where they had their own umpires and could tamper the ball any way they wanted as can be seen from these articles... http://legacy.guardian.co.tt/archives/2006-09-26/SA-8.html http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10624473 No doubt Wasim and Waqar were pretty good but Pakistan as a bowling lineup overall were good but never great.

[Ultimate_Game]

UG my post in other thread gave you bit inspi for this no ??

Well I actually read the article in cricinfo and was surprized at the findings.

Why do we have some many threads to show Pakistan down ? We are the world champions and we should enjoy it. There is no point shoing them down. They know it, we know it and the world know it as to who is the top team right now. If people want to bask in past glory, they can do so. Everybody does that at some point or the other. Heck, even Urugway had a better head to head record against brazil till 1940. Now there is no compatison.

This is a cricket forum and I am sharing facts and stats. I saw an article in cricinfo which I liked and thought cricket fans would like it as well. I always assumed that we could never play pace competently, maybe coz that's what I have been hearing since forever, but to my surprize this isn't true at all. I mean how else do we fare so well against WI of 80s & 90s and Aus of 200s? This is the point I wanted to make along with clearing up the misconception that Pakistanis weren't as good as people think they were and weren't the "2nd best team" in 80s or 90s.

[Alchemist]

Well I actually read the article in cricinfo and was surprized at the findings. This is a cricket forum and I am sharing facts and stats. I saw an article in cricinfo which I liked and thought cricket fans would like it as well. I always assumed that we could never play pace competently, maybe coz that's what I have been hearing since forever, but to my surprize this isn't true at all. I mean how else do we fare so well against WI of 80s & 90s and Aus of 200s? This is the point I wanted to make along with clearing up the misconception that Pakistanis weren't as good as people think they were and weren't the "2nd best team" in 80s or 90s.

This is funny. They actually want to be the "second best team" !!! :hysterical::hysterical:

[ganeshran]

Their bowling may have been better than their batting but IMO it is and was overrated. They had Wasim & Waqar but didn't have anyone else to back them up. When Saqlain showed up Waqar was over the hill and Wasim was in decline. They never had the bowling lineup like WI with 4 world class bowlers or even like Aus with 2 world class bowlers (McGrath and Warne) backed by 2 very good/competent bowlers (combination of Gillespie, Lee, Stuart MacGill, Kasprowicz etc.) Pakistani bowling looked much better than it was owing to its "home umpiring" where they had their own umpires and could tamper the ball any way they wanted as can be seen from these articles... http://legacy.guardian.co.tt/archives/2006-09-26/SA-8.html http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10624473 No doubt Wasim and Waqar were pretty good but Pakistan as a bowling lineup overall were good but never great.

Wasim, Waqar, Imran and Saqlain were all world class bowlers. I dont think any of them were overrated (atleast by non Pakistan fans). Asif had the potential to become a great but threw it all away. Aqib Javed was a good bowler too but not of the class of the above four.

[Ultimate_Game]

Wasim' date=' Waqar, Imran and Saqlain were all world class bowlers. I dont think any of them were overrated (atleast by non Pakistan fans). Asif had the potential to become a great but threw it all away. Aqib Javed was a good bowler too but not of the class of the above four.[/quote'] They were good bowlers but you will never put them in the same class as Marshall, Holding or McGrath. Aqib Javed was nothing special and Saqlain was at his peak for only 2-3 years - from 1998 to 2001 (or 02) when Waqar was already over the hill and Wasim on his way down.

[ganeshran]

They were good bowlers but you will never put them in the same class as Marshall' date=' Holding or McGrath. Aqib Javed was nothing special and Saqlain was at his peak for only 2-3 years - from 1998 to 2001 (or 02) when Waqar was already over the hill and Wasim on his way down.[/quote'] Not Marshall and Holding but Akram and McGrath were certainly quite comparable bowlers, Both have looked unplayable many times in their careers. Mc Grath's strong point was his amazingly disciplined bowling and consistent line and length with movement. Wasim's was his both ways swing at high pace

[Ultimate_Game]

Not Marshall and Holding but Akram and McGrath were certainly quite comparable bowlers' date=' Both have looked unplayable many times in their careers. Mc Grath's strong point was his amazingly disciplined bowling and consistent line and length with movement. Wasim's was his both ways swing at high pace[/quote'] I disagree. McGrath always had the knack of picking important wkts at crucial times and generally made a bunny out of opponent's best batsman like Lara. If I were to pick my All Time XI I would have the following bowling lineup... Marshall Holding McGrath Warne And if needed a 4th pacer in Andy Roberts/Garner. McGrath gave you consistency and applied tons of pressure on the batsman. He was always spot on right from ball one and never had an off day. Wasim could have a bad day or be brilliant another day but McGrath was on the money every single day and I don't recall any batsman dominating him ever.

[ganeshran]

I disagree. McGrath always had the knack of picking important wkts at crucial times and generally made a bunny out of opponent's best batsman like Lara. If I were to pick my All Time XI I would have the following bowling lineup... Marshall Holding McGrath Warne And if needed a 4th pacer in Andy Roberts/Garner. McGrath gave you consistency and applied tons of pressure on the batsman. He was always spot on right from ball one and never had an off day. Wasim could have a bad day or be brilliant another day but McGrath was on the money every single day and I don't recall any batsman dominating him ever.

well thats your opinion. Mine would have Akram for sure.