The philosophy thread

[King]

It's pretty simple GKD, you do not have answers for the questions I have raised above. The science you hail is not able to answer a lot of questions at this point in time. The headway science is making is way too slow. There are things beyond science you cannot understand unless you try finding it. You called me of typical desi attitude but you never really looked into the evidences I provided about reincarnation. Science has not been able to disprove several cases from around the world (so much for your desi mentality hatred ness). The reincarnation phenomenon has occurred in various parts of the world including Africa, America, India, Australia and a lot other countries. All you had to say about it was “wishful desi thinking”. I did ask you what proof do you need to accept it but you were adamant not to accept any kind of proof. Don’t you reckon “You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe.” suits you better than me. I’m happy to accept other theories but you are the only that only believes in one clan of people i.e the scientists. I asked you several valid questions but you made no effort to answer any of those questions. All you are saying is "Science corrects it's mistakes based on facts" so it is better than moral ways of life prescribed by some eminent men. That argument is so vague and completely clueless IMO. Philosophy of life has evolved with man kind too. Yesterday's rights are today's wrong. I know what you refer to when you refer to religion. "Islam" is what you refer to. I'm not referring to a particular text, religion here. I'm referring to a way of life beyond mundane. You can call it religion, philosophy or whatever you like. Without these ways of life you are nothing but an animal. As for hard feelings, of course I wouldn’t have one. Why he heck would I have hard feelings just because you don’t prescribe to my way of life? It’s all in good spirits. You stick to your theories and I will to mine. We will some day in future may contradict, who knows?

[CC1981]

Carl Sagan- You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe.

Same is often true too of science-nuts.

[Anakin]

Same is often true too of science-nuts.

Can't be since by definition science is based on proofs not faith or belief.

[CC1981]

Can't be since by definition science is based on proofs not faith or belief.

I am talking about 'in practice' here. Outside of research circles, there is also a distinct aspect of religion present in university science culture- that of taking refusing to see the limitations of science in its ability to extrapolate or how science itself is unscientific at times. The point is, science is not perfect either in its approach or explanations or its dogma -though infinitely more preferrable than religion. In this aspect, i agree mostly with Ravi and please desist from the 'science lectures' to me since it is pointless. Science and existentialism is not a smooth join especially since what constitutes proof, theory,hypothesis or data or deductions do not have a clear-cut boundary seperating each other. Simply speaking, a science that trashes the possibility of the existance of God is contradicting itself.

[Gaurav]

I am talking about 'in practice' here. Outside of research circles, there is also a distinct aspect of religion present in university science culture- that of taking refusing to see the limitations of science in its ability to extrapolate or how science itself is unscientific at times. The point is, science is not perfect either in its approach or explanations or its dogma -though infinitely more preferrable than religion. In this aspect, i agree mostly with Ravi and please desist from the 'science lectures' to me since it is pointless. Science and existentialism is not a smooth join especially since what constitutes proof, theory,hypothesis or data or deductions do not have a clear-cut boundary seperating each other. Simply speaking, a science that trashes the possibility of the existance of God is contradicting itself.

Science is not perfect but religion is completely not perfect. You are willing to pull science ka danda which has lot more going for it compared to religion which had absolutely NOTHING going for it in terms of cold hard evidence. Such hardcore claims and no evidence to back it up? Wahhh kya bat hai CCji. Science tries the best it can to connect the dots. Wtf has religion done to prove existence of God? Ap aise bat karte ho jaise ke all religious claims have been proven as fact!!!! For arguments sake lets say that 100% of what science says is untrue. That still does not make religious claims true! So on what basis are religious folks rejecting science but accepting religion/god as fact? Just because you don't understand something (our world) does not mean that you start creating and believing any bloody fairytale. I laid the challenge few months ago to all the ghosts/holy spirits of the world to come and move my watch from left side of the table to the right side. Why the f@k did they fail? :hysterical:

The science you hail is not able to answer a lot of questions at this point in time. The headway science is making is way too slow.

And religion is able to answer????:thumbs_down: The headway science has made is very fast actually! What advance has religion made? Flat earth? Dinosaurs lived alongside humans? World less than 5000 years old? Please Ravi! :hysterical:

There are things beyond science you cannot understand unless you try finding it.

Oh really? Where do I find these things? :teeth_smile:

You called me of typical desi attitude but you never really looked into the evidences I provided about reincarnation. Science has not been able to disprove several cases from around the world (so much for your desi mentality hatred ness).

What proof did you provide me for reincarnation? You are making an extraordinary claim so you have to provide the proof not science. I claim that a Pamella Anderson statue the size of India is rotating around Earth. It can't be seen by telescopes but it's really there! Go on prove that it's not there. If I claim that while cooking one of the beans turned into a diamond the size of CC's @ss would you believe me? You would ask for evidence. Where is the evidence for reincarnation? Show me the money Ravi! :shades_smile:

The reincarnation phenomenon has occurred in various parts of the world including Africa, America, India, Australia and a lot other countries. All you had to say about it was “wishful desi thinking”.I did ask you what proof do you need to accept it but you were adamant not to accept any kind of proof.

Because wishful thinking is what it is. Sorry I am just being honest :embaressed_smile: Most cases of reincarnation occur in places that believe in such stuff. Btw why exactly don't I remember my past life? :teeth_smile:

I’m happy to accept other theories but you are the only that only believes in one clan of people i.e the scientists.

I am not following science blindly. I am not living my life based on any scientists view on how I should live my life. Religious people on the other hand ARE living their daily lives and even killing on the basis of what some invisible God/prophet supposedly discovered some 2000+ years ago. You are not seriously comparing the two?

All you are saying is "Science corrects it's mistakes based on facts" so it is better than moral ways of life prescribed by some eminent men. That argument is so vague and completely clueless IMO.

You are entitled to your opinion but not your own facts. Why the hell would I need to live my life based on morals prescribed by some human who lived 1000+ years ago? What morals anyway? Morals that killing animals is ok? Morals that women are inferior to men? Morals that people are handicapped because of the sins they committed in their previous life? Pleazzeeeee!!!!!

Yesterday's rights are today's wrong.

That contradicts religious teachings then doesn't it? :teeth_smile: If god created a moral code then how dare you change it? Why do I smell bull ****?

I know what you refer to when you refer to religion. "Islam" is what you refer to.

Actually not. I refer to all religions based on myths and andhwishwas,

I'm not referring to a particular text, religion here. I'm referring to a way of life beyond mundane. You can call it religion, philosophy or whatever you like. Without these ways of life you are nothing but an animal.

Ravi we are exactly like animals and we ARE animals (if not worse) :thumbs_up:

As for hard feelings, of course I wouldn’t have one. Why he heck would I have hard feelings just because you don’t prescribe to my way of life? It’s all in good spirits. You stick to your theories and I will to mine. We will some day in future may contradict, who knows?

Good as this discussion has nothing to do with my high opinion of you in general :thumbs_up:

[Anakin]

I'm not referring to a particular text, religion here. I'm referring to a way of life beyond mundane. You can call it religion, philosophy or whatever you like. Without these ways of life you are nothing but an animal.

Didn't see that. We're still animals dude, no matter what religious people think. And yes, we'd still have achieved morality, ethics and the urge to help others without religions. In fact many of those features have been proven in animal kingdom which many seem to think are below us. There was a recent news that helping others have been seen documented among chimps, and it's not unique among them either. In reality, you'll find more hypocrites and dishonest people among the religious ones than in regular folks.

[CC1981]

You are willing to pull science ka danda which has lot more going for it compared to religion which had absolutely NOTHING going for it in terms of cold hard evidence. Such hardcore claims and no evidence to back it up? Wahhh kya bat hai CCji.

Lol. Gai, i pity you. Really, i do. You cannot think in anything but 'on-off/us-them' idea. Since when is saying science not perfect implying that i am putting it on the same pedestral as religion ? I am saying that science has its own limitations - not because 'it hasnt discovered the relevant knowledge yet' argument you are throwing my way, but because it has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument that science itself is limited in its scope. You talk about cold hard evidence, my entire point is to do with INTERPRETING what is evidence, how it is evidence, how it isnt, etc etc. This also happens to be my job FYI - logistics & implementation. I've already said that science is far better than religion. What i also think is that science fails to answer some existential/metaphysical questions that philosophy/religion answers (some of them, not all of them) in a superior understanding. I think if universe were a puzzle, most of the puzzles in universe could be solved through science but some puzzles are beyond science and lies closer with philosophy/metaphysics/religion. The reason i don't want to debate this is because i don't want to get into long boring debates on this topic, as it can get quite detailed.

[King]

I am not following science blindly. I am not living my life based on any scientists view on how I should live my life. Religious people on the other hand ARE living their daily lives and even killing on the basis of what some invisible God/prophet supposedly discovered some 2000+ years ago. You are not seriously comparing the two?

Unfortunately as I said your focus is always on showing one particular religion as full of flaws. Why don't you be clear what you are referring to here? I'll tell ya what, you are just trying to expose "A" particular religion's short comings i.e "Islam". I have absolutely no interest in talking about "A" particular religion while this thread was created aiming at philosophy. I can't quite answer the questions you pose for that religion as I'm not from that religion. I have my own idea of philosophy and god. Similarly I also know science is so limited it cannot answer a lot of questions currently. I was not taught to follow the religious texts word by word. I was taught what are right and wrongs right from my childhood. I stick to it. I have a clear idea of what some great men in the past have achieved. I have seen people that are beyond a lot of mundane arrogant people like us folks that have know it all attitude. If you are not proud of your roots, culture and the upbringing then I have absolutely no interest in touching these subjects. If you have been brought up with telescopes, microscopes in your daily life then you are beyond philosophy, god and the rest :tounge_smile:

[CC1981]

And religion is able to answer???? The headway science has made is very fast actually! What advance has religion made? Flat earth? Dinosaurs lived alongside humans? World less than 5000 years old? Please Ravi!

You are suffering from 'western-itis' as it is evident from your commentary against religion. It approaches religion solely from a western perspective and hence your rhetoric is directed towards Abrahamic faiths etc. line of thought. However, religion is more than just that line of thought (which i too happen to think is really stupid and product of a less advanced society).

What proof did you provide me for reincarnation?

I too believe in re-incarnation but i don't think you realize the scope of the concept of 'reincarnation' - the concept of what the 'atman' really is, in itself is quite ridiculously complicated. So far, the core concept of atman is tied to attributes of a person rather than the ego-concious of the person, which FYI is perfectly within the laws of science, yet significantly more developed than science's scope of deterministic approach. Science tends to forget that its theory-proof approach in itself is limited because it in itself is a 'yes-no' line of thought - which is inadequate to cover the 'maybe' aspect. Science needs a 'yes' somewhere to come to a 'maybe' clause, which in itself is a fundamental violation of the 'maybe' clause. Science tends to forget (much like religion too) that there is room for both to exist -though i must say that science must make up the dominant aspect of the equation.

[CC1981]

If you have been brought up with telescopes, microscopes in your daily life then you are beyond philosophy, god and the rest

Oi ! I was brought up with telescopes, microscopes and periscopes ! :alberteinstein::captain::itsme:

[Gaurav]

Na pity yourself and your selective logic :giggle:

've already said that science is far better than religion. What i also think is that science fails to answer some existential/metaphysical questions that philosophy/religion answers (some of them, not all of them) in a superior understanding.

Like I said I still disagree with you. For me they are attempts but not real answers. Anyway no worries feel free to rub your laughing Buddha's belly :haha:

[King]

I think we all put in enough effort here expressing what we feel about a particular subject. There is no way our ideas shall meet at present. Let us try and revisit say about 20 years later :teeth_smile: Let's hope science will make enough headway to answer a lot of unanswerable questions currently. Hopefully we will have grown wiser by then :thumbs_up:

[CC1981]

For me they are attempts but not real answers.

Correct. And their attempts are inifinitely superior to that of scientific attempt and far more developed in those particular fields. That is what i am trying to say. You can disagree- but if you educate yourself in philosophy and religion, you too shall easily see this science-religion/philosophy relationship on issues and which are the few issues where religion/philosophy is far better to handle.

Na pity yourself and your selective logic

Nothing selective here. I've already highlighted the weak points in science's way of thinking.

[Gaurav]

Unfortunately as I said your focus is always on showing one particular religion as full of flaws. Why don't you be clear what you are referring to here? I'll tell ya what' date=' you are just trying to expose "A" particular religion's short comings i.e "Islam". I have absolutely no interest in talking about "A" particular religion while this thread was created aiming at philosophy. I can't quite answer the questions you pose for that religion as I'm not from that religion. [/quote'] Like I said my points apply to ALL religions! How are my points about reincarnation/handicaps related to Islam? It's related to Hinduism! 2000 years ago Islam did not even exist so I don't know why you feel that i am talking about Islam only? You are making too many assumptions mate. I have openly attacked Islam on these boards so why would I not openly attack Islam only if that had been my intention? Anyone who reads my posts on this thread will see that I am not focusing on any ONE religion.

I have my own idea of philosophy and god. Similarly I also know science is so limited it cannot answer a lot of questions currently. I was not taught to follow the religious texts word by word. I was taught what are right and wrongs right from my childhood. I stick to it. I have a clear idea of what some great men in the past have achieved. I have seen people that are beyond a lot of mundane arrogant people like us folks that have know it all attitude. If you are not proud of your roots, culture and the upbringing then I have absolutely no interest in touching these subjects. If you have been brought up with telescopes, microscopes in your daily life then you are beyond philosophy, god and the rest :tounge_smile:

Cop out! Culture is just accident of birth. There is nothing extraordinarily superior or extraordinarily inferior about our Indian culture :teeth_smile:

[Gaurav]

Correct. And their attempts are inifinitely superior to that of scientific attempt...

Says you :tounge_smile: Ok let's leave it at this and re-visit in 20 years like Ravi said. Science would have moved more forward and religion would be exactly where it always has been :haha: ------- Btw anyone who posts after this post is a looser :hysterical: -------------

[CC1981]

There is nothing extraordinarily superior or extraordinarily inferior about our Indian culture

Oh yes there is - something similar about Chinese culture too - oldest cultures surviving and thus are far more 'developed' in its stage. If you'd like a scientific example, Indian culture if is dinosaurs, then western culture is amphibians who are less evolved and came before dinos. There is nothing inherently wrong in this simply because by law of entropy, that which survives longer (especially at an intellectual level) tends to devise more elegant solutions to the 'higher problems' owing to the much deeper wealth of metaphysical/cultural/historic knowledge.

Anyone who reads my posts on this thread will see that I am not focusing on any ONE religion.

No but what you are perceiving as religion is distinctly the 'abrahamic model'.

Science would have moved more forward and religion would have been exactly where it always has been

Some religions/philosophies have moved forward too.

[King]

Like I said my points apply to ALL religions! How are my points about reincarnation/handicaps related to Islam? It's related to Hinduism! 2000 years ago Islam did not even exist so I don't know why you feel that i am talking about Islam only? You are making too many assumptions mate. I have openly attacked Islam on these boards so why would I not openly attack Islam only if that had been my intention? Anyone who reads my posts on this thread will see that I am not focusing on any ONE religion. Cop out! Culture is just accident of birth. There is nothing extraordinarily superior or extraordinarily inferior about our Indian culture :teeth_smile:

Right from the time I started to post in this thread many a times you questioned religious texts of a particular religion. Sure you questioned reincarnation and couple other things but I feel you were targetting a particular religion there. I have no problem if you have reservations about it. I just felt like you were on it so I mentioned. Apologies if you were intention wasn't that. I've become a little sceptical of late what with every one trying to connect any religious theories with Islam.

There is nothing extraordinarily superior or extraordinarily inferior about our Indian culture

I never really mentioned Indian culture did I? I repeat again "roots, culture and the upbringing". I never mentioned "A" culture as extra ordinary. That's your presumption. I only questioned your usage of "Desi" in a rather careless style. I would be proud of my culture, root and upbringing whether I'm an Indian, Chinese or a Mexican. I think irrespective of the region a little more respect for roots, culture and upbringing is required.

[Gaurav]

Oh yes there is - something similar about Chinese culture too - oldest cultures surviving and thus are far more 'developed' in its stage. If you'd like a scientific example, Indian culture if is dinosaurs, then western culture is amphibians who are less evolved and came before dinos. There is nothing inherently wrong in this simply because by law of entropy, that which survives longer (especially at an intellectual level) tends to devise more elegant solutions to the 'higher problems' owing to the much deeper wealth of metaphysical/cultural/historic knowledge.

Bull ****! Where are dinos now? There are obviously differences in cultures but like I said there is nothing EXTRAORDINARILY superior about our culture. Some parts are superior and some are inferior. Let's take this Kabir ki poem as example- Bada hua to kya hua? Jaise pade khajur. Panthik ko chaiya nahi de, fal lage ati dhooor :hysterical: Think of bada as older :shades_smile:

No but what you are perceiving as religion is distinctly the 'abrahamic model'.

Abhe I gave a clear example of Hinduism with the handicap and reincarnation example and you still keep pulling my tail about that? :hysterical: Sale you forced me to reply again and now we both are losers :hysterical: Let me work yaar! You know I am a sucker for these debates :devil_smile:

[Guest HariSampath]

3 Questions: - Where did the world come from ? - Who are you ? - What happens when you die ? It doesn't matter that you come up with answers or not. It's just the thought process and the follow-up questions that are interesting.

I haven't read anything except your OP, Varun... but thanks for referring me. Fantastic questions, and I shall say confidently I have all the answers :two_thumbs_up:

[varun]

I haven't read anything except your OP' date=' Varun... but thanks for referring me. Fantastic questions, and I shall say confidently I have all the answers :two_thumbs_up:[/quote'] Do you really ? :D I'll be happy to hear them. Socrates: Wisest is one who knows that he knows nothing