What to do with Kashmir ?

[Asim]

I will tell you the answer the moment you tell me the connection between what I asked in post#63 - which was to do with Pakistanis - and what you are talking ( which is about people converting in USA and Europe ) Why dont you then tell us without using google (if that is what you prefer) what happened to the various Jewish tribes ? And please don't forget to explain this : http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/34770/force

Your problem is if you talk sense 1 time, you talk hate 100 times... Your tone and the way you describing things is simply there to promote hate... and I am avoiding your most of the stuff because you in your ignorance and hate can say "anything", you already have said more than enough about my religion which was and which is really most disappointing stuff I faced while my stay at ICF... Bro! At least you can behave in civilized manner and can talk respectfully or is it too difficult for you? OK let’s make it a bit simpler, why I am mentioning the conversions of today around the world is because it is happening 100% by their personal choice and 0% by force, if it can happen in today's world, most modern time on earth with most educated people embracing Islam, how it was not possible to happen 100, 200, x100 years ago? Now your famous post #63, Do you really think people converted to Islam "by force" can become most practical Muslims on earth? I think naturally they should rather hate Islam, makes sense? There are most practical Muslims there in India and Pakistan, if they all are converted by force, naturally they should have hated Islam more than anything else on earth, wht it is not the case? You might be surprised to know but it is Islamic law itself that it will not be considered a conversion if it happened without his knowledge towards Islam or it was not his personal choice or if he accepted it without understanding or if happened by force. A conversion is acknowledged in Islam only and only if it happened by his purest of intention and after his complete understanding and acceptance by heart and mind towards Islam. The biggest problem in your approach: you are criticizing the basic product... if few consumers misuse a product, you got to blame consumers ONLY not the product, to criticize a product you need to learn and understand the product not the consumers. I categorically say Islam is a religion of Peace and it absolutely prohibits any form of violence and hate towards whole humanity regardless of their religion or race, so if you want to see other side of picture you are holding and want to know the reality, come out of your shell of hate towards Islam and Muslims and read about what actually Islam itself says on all these issue.

[Javier]

Your problem is if you talk sense 1 time, you talk hate 100 times... Your tone and the way you describing things is simply there to promote hate... and I am avoiding your most of the stuff because you in your ignorance and hate can say "anything", you already have said more than enough about my religion which was and which is really most disappointing stuff I faced while my stay at ICF... Bro! At least you can behave in civilized manner and can talk respectfully or is it too difficult for you? OK let’s make it a bit simpler, why I am mentioning the conversions of today around the world is because it is happening 100% by their personal choice and 0% by force, if it can happen in today's world, most modern time on earth with most educated people embracing Islam, how it was not possible to happen 100, 200, x100 years ago? Now your famous post #63, Do you really think people converted to Islam "by force" can become most practical Muslims on earth? I think naturally they should rather hate Islam, makes sense? There are most practical Muslims there in India and Pakistan, if they all are converted by force, naturally they should have hated Islam more than anything else on earth, wht it is not the case? You might be surprised to know but it is Islamic law itself that it will not be considered a conversion if it happened without his knowledge towards Islam or it was not his personal choice or if he accepted it without understanding or if happened by force. A conversion is acknowledged in Islam only and only if it happened by his purest of intention and after his complete understanding and acceptance by heart and mind towards Islam. The biggest problem in your approach: you are criticizing the basic product... if few consumers misuse a product, you got to blame consumers ONLY not the product, to criticize a product you need to learn and understand the product not the consumers. I categorically say Islam is a religion of Peace and it absolutely prohibits any form of violence and hate towards whole humanity regardless of their religion or race, so if you want to see other side of picture you are holding and want to know the reality, come out of your shell of hate towards Islam and Muslims and read about what actually Islam itself says on all these issue.

So you mean to say that there have never been forced conversions to Islam? How about the killings of millions of Sikhs and a couple of Sikh Gurus that were butchered for refusal to convert to Islam? Is that just a Hindu Conspiracy to malign the image of Great Islam? There would have been no reason for the emergence of the Sikh religion if there were no forced conversions to Islam.

[Asim]

So you mean to say that there have never been forced conversions to Islam? How about the killings of millions of Sikhs and a couple of Sikh Gurus that were butchered for refusal to convert to Islam? Is that just a Hindu Conspiracy to malign the image of Great Islam? There would have been no reason for the emergence of the Sikh religion if there were no forced conversions to Islam.

what would you accept as evidence to prove you wrong on these issues ? : 1. Conversions by force (past and present) ( Javier already presented the most event ) 2. Not a religion of peace.

Let me make everything simple for you: 1. As I already have said its not a rule of Islam itself to convert people by force so whenever and wherever it happened is not happened under teachings of Islam because Islam simply don't even accept it as a "conversion". 2. It is impossible for any person to get converted by force and become a practical Muslim by heart and inner self , common sense, isn't it? but you can see 24% of whole world's population are satisfied Muslims... and increasing each day...

[King Tendulkar]

Let me make everything simple for you: 1. As I already have said its not a rule of Islam itself to convert people by force so whenever and wherever it happened is not happened under teachings of Islam because Islam simply don't even accept it as a "conversion". 2. It is impossible for any person to get converted by force and become a practical Muslim by heart and inner self , common sense, isn't it? but you can see 24% of whole world's population are satisfied Muslims... and increasing each day...

You constantly tell us how islam is growing, why is that? You seem very happy and boastful about this, why?

[Asim]

You constantly tell us how islam is growing' date=' why is that? You seem very happy and boastful about this, why?[/quote'] Lol... "you seem very happy", I ignored your remarks yesterday but now again... well you getting it totally wrong bro. Your fellows are constantly telling me how Islam ONLY grown by force, and actually directly attacking religion Islam, but somehow you are beautifully ignoring all that (which is quite obvious why) and when in reply I say it is growing even today everywhere but peacefully, you suddenly pop out from somewhere with your own issue from nowhere and the stuff which is not even in my mind :) "why?"...

[King Tendulkar]

Lol... "you seem very happy", I ignored your remarks yesterday but now again... well you getting it totally wrong bro. Your fellows are constantly telling me how Islam ONLY grown by force, and actually directly attacking religion Islam, but somehow you are beautifully ignoring all that (which is quite obvious why) and when in reply I say it is growing even today everywhere but peacefully, you suddenly pop out from somewhere with your own issue from nowhere and the stuff which is not even in my mind :) "why?"...

It grew by force, thats its origin. Convert or die is the mantra. Convert or be enslaved. Covert or pay higher taxes etc etc. All types of tools to convert the weak. Also it desperate to convert people. Hence threw on nice liitle commission rule, in that if you convert someone go to heaven no questions asked. Peodophil, rapist etc no problem convert someone then all forgotten and go staright to heaven. Also tricks to stop people converting from islam. Any one who does that, then koran says death to him. Nice rule. Also islam preys on undeucated/backward/illeterate. Hence gowing fastest in Africa etc It grows so fast as you boast cos you guys are doing everyting you can to make it grow. Plan is to spread islam so make the world becomes islamic green. Also grows as muslims buy in to the master plan and breed like rabbits hence laods of children to grow islam. Also cos muslims are from poorer back grounds hence uneducated generally have more children anyway. Also other faiths do not even do conversion. eg hinduism does not attempt or want to convert people. So you will grow more then others as they are not trying to rammn down peoples throats their religion like islam does. The above shows that islam does not grow cos its great, it grows for numerous other factors which show islam negativley not positivley. So stop the boasting, as the growth shows negativley on islam and and not the weird positive stance you try and show.

[Asim]

^ Good TURN but hopefully it helped you to take your frustration out, you can take few easy breaths now :) But its nice to know USA govt deducts the taxes who converts to Islam, and Europe kills the people who dont convert and India enslaves them...

[King Tendulkar]

^ Good TURN but hopefully it helped you to take your frustration out' date=' you can take few easy breaths now :) But its nice to know USA govt deducts the taxes who converts to Islam, and Europe kills the people who dont convert and India enslaves them...[/quote'] I am taking about history. But yes in many muslims countries if someone converts away from Islam, then you know what will happen to them. Not level playing field then is it in your grow stat boasts. As other religions not being allowed to grow in muslim countries. Most of the converts to Islam are in poor uneducated places like afirca. USA not turning islamic no matter how much you guys dream. Interesting to see how you did not answer my points in previous pst, as you know valid points and islam would not come out looking good. Depsite your claim of it being the one and only true religion!

[Asim]

^ post 161

[Guest Gunner]

ahhh The same old tired and mindless regurgitation of PC statements ... pretty much everything you said there is just plain wrong and is not supported by empirical data , facts and current events. I can tell you why so but Iam not certain you are willing to listen never mind acknowledge your mistakes. But Iam willing to be surprised so let me know. Otherwise I once again ask you the question I asked in the previous post : What sort of event will convince you (if at all) that Islam = Bad ? What more needs to happen ?

The issue is quite simple. The other abrahimic religious have as violent a starting point as Islam. The blood shed, forced conversions, inquisitions - the works. In the case of the other two they evolved by questioning the book and their prophet (maybe not the jews). In the case of Islam the book forbids them from questioning the faith, the book or the prophet - all of this is considered sin of the highest order. Effectively blocking evolution and locking them in the year of our lord 639 Anno Dominus. There is nothing further to this.

[jonas10]

Muslim majority are from four countries: Pakistan, Bangladesh, India and Indonesia all these people were converted by force by Arabs. Islam is an arab religion and you Asim are not arab. Your ancestors were once upon a time weak hindus that could not defend themselves so quit acting like some Persian prince.

[jonas10]

I categorically say Islam is a religion of Peace and it absolutely prohibits any form of violence and hate towards whole humanity regardless of their religion or race, so if you want to see other side of picture you are holding and want to know the reality, come out of your shell of hate towards Islam and Muslims and read about what actually Islam itself says on all these issue.

LOL prohibits form of violence - do you no nothing of Undivided Indias history? Forceful conversions. What are you 14 years old? Read a book.

[Asim]

Muslim majority are from four countries: Pakistan, Bangladesh, India and Indonesia all these people were converted by force by Arabs. Islam is an arab religion and you Asim are not arab. Your ancestors were once upon a time weak hindus that could not defend themselves so quit acting like some Persian prince.

4 countries you mentioned comes way down the list if you check it percentage wise. 2nd part is quite funny, very much repeatedly you guys are mentioning that our ancestors were non-Muslim and that we are not Arabs... who claimed to be Arabs? :) the point is even Arabs themselves were not muslims 1500 years ago, so should they start worrying today ohh our ancestors were something else? or the people who are converting even today should be mentioned everyday your ancestors are not Muslim. The point is Islam spread in last 1500 years only from 0% of population to now 1/4 of whole world (now someone of you will come out and start shouting why are you happy on Islam's expansion lol) and so of course each Muslim’s ancestor at some point were non Muslim.

[Asim]

LOL prohibits form of violence - do you no nothing of Undivided Indias history? Forceful conversions. What are you 14 years old? Read a book.

I guess you also missed a lot of stuff about undivided indias history... I repeatedly asked one question from BossBhai and all you guys but when it comes to sense and logic, you guys come clueless... You all are experts of history and I don’t disagree your references but Question is still unanswered: How the people converted "by force" can become the most practical Muslims in world?

[jonas10]

Asim, you're the same guy that wants evidence of whats going on in China with Muslims....of which i sent you tons and then you disappeared from this thread and buried your head in the sand. Islam was founded by Arabs and spread by force to "lowly" Indian Hindus/Buddhists (i.e. your ancestors) by conversion. Read up on Aurangzeb if you want to learn about forced conversions. Yes there are a billion plus Muslims and there also are Christan Hindus Buddhists with large populations. Don't get why you're so excited by this? Difference is that these other religions were not spread by the sword. For the last time Islam is an Arab religion that was forced on your Hindu ancestors Asim. The Arabs look down on Pakistani Muslims such as yourself. You're a second class citizen in the Islam Gulf - you know the "high percentage Muslim areas you are quite keen on" Read up in these pure Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia/UAE how they treat your Pakistani Muslim brothers working as indentured servants in the Gulf.

[jonas10]

I guess you also missed a lot of stuff about undivided indias history... I repeatedly asked one question from BossBhai and all you guys but when it comes to sense and logic, you guys come clueless... You all are experts of history and I don’t disagree your references but Question is still unanswered: How the people converted "by force" can become the most practical Muslims in world?

Okay ill answer your question - how the people converted by force can become the most practical Muslims in the world? Not sure what you mean - like how say Fareed Zakaria's ancestors who were converted by force and now he is probably the leading authority on geopolitics in the world ahead of any Arab "pure" muslim? Is that your question? Thats easy - its the culture - the pure Arab gulf countries are inherently lazy they depend on foreigners for everything. People like a Fareed Zakaria or a Azim Premji are required to work in an open society in India in order to succeed. As well they are not so indoctrinated the way a Pakistani muslim is so when they come to Canada/America/UK etc they do especially well and arnt obsessed with fanaticism. Actually - can you please name for me one successful Pakistani-American? Forget Muslim or converted by force - there are hundreds of successful Indian Americans Governors, businessmen, Fortune 500 CEOs, cabinet members etc. Not one Pakistani. Makes you wonder. :hatsoff:

[ganeshran]

You did just that(unknowingly) when you put the Dharmic faiths alongside Abrahamic faiths especially Islam. Not only is your opinion just utterly baseless but you don't even realize the self-goals you are scoring left-right and center.

How is it baseless? I am arguing that every religion sanctions violence provided its done for some just cause. Can you refute this? Islam's sanction for violence has been repeatedly misused even in the modern age, but the problem here isnt Islam, its the exploitation of its ideology to further selfish geopolitical interests of the leaders. I agree with Gunner Paaji, Most muslims have failed to question their faith and made it into a black and white issue - either you reject Islam or you accept it wholeheartedly. The absence of a middle ground is disturbing, but we cannot attribute it to the fault of the religion itself.

ahhh The same old tired and mindless regurgitation of PC statements ... pretty much everything you said there is just plain wrong and is not supported by empirical data , facts and current events. I can tell you why so but Iam not certain you are willing to listen never mind acknowledge your mistakes. But Iam willing to be surprised so let me know. Otherwise I once again ask you the question I asked in the previous post : What sort of event will convince you (if at all) that Islam = Bad ? What more needs to happen ?

I am very much willing to listen to the facts and empirical data. I would be convinced that Islam is bad if the religion asks its followers to cause harm to innocent people and preaches violence. But it doesnt. And when a huge majority of the 2 billion followers of Islam are innocent of any such wrongdoing, its totally unfair to paint all of them in the same color. As I said before, I do not agree with guilt by association. Each individual is entitled to be judged by his/her actions alone, not those of his compatriots.

[Asim]

what would you accept as evidence to prove you wrong on these issues ? : 1. Conversions by force (past and present) ( Javier already presented the most event ) 2. Not a religion of peace.

Asim, you're the same guy that wants evidence of whats going on in China with Muslims....of which i sent you tons and then you disappeared from this thread and buried your head in the sand. Islam was founded by Arabs and spread by force to "lowly" Indian Hindus/Buddhists (i.e. your ancestors) by conversion. Read up on Aurangzeb if you want to learn about forced conversions. Yes there are a billion plus Muslims and there also are Christan Hindus Buddhists with large populations. Don't get why you're so excited by this? Difference is that these other religions were not spread by the sword. For the last time Islam is an Arab religion that was forced on your Hindu ancestors Asim. The Arabs look down on Pakistani Muslims such as yourself. You're a second class citizen in the Islam Gulf - you know the "high percentage Muslim areas you are quite keen on" Read up in these pure Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia/UAE how they treat your Pakistani Muslim brothers working as indentured servants in the Gulf.

Okay ill answer your question - how the people converted by force can become the most practical Muslims in the world? Not sure what you mean - like how say Fareed Zakaria's ancestors who were converted by force and now he is probably the leading authority on geopolitics in the world ahead of any Arab "pure" muslim? Is that your question? Thats easy - its the culture - the pure Arab gulf countries are inherently lazy they depend on foreigners for everything. People like a Fareed Zakaria or a Azim Premji are required to work in an open society in India in order to succeed. As well they are not so indoctrinated the way a Pakistani muslim is so when they come to Canada/America/UK etc they do especially well and arnt obsessed with fanaticism. Actually - can you please name for me one successful Pakistani-American? Forget Muslim or converted by force - there are hundreds of successful Indian Americans Governors, businessmen, Fortune 500 CEOs, cabinet members etc. Not one Pakistani. Makes you wonder. :hatsoff:

My God, not again... "Islam was founded in Arab, hindus of this region were converted by force and they are our ancestors"... all same repeated again but my question is still unanswered... and I think will remain unanswered... Anyways you seem to have enough grip on history, definitely much more than me but I wonder the text you guys read have only told you about forced conversions and nothing else? OK give me your thoughts on: Do you know about Sufi’ism? Do you know the role it played in India to convert the people and make them the most practical Muslims, not by force but ONLY with their personal choice and completely genuine desire and intent... Have you ever read about "Khwaja Moin-ud-din Chishti" of Ajmer Sharif? Thousands of people even non-Muslims of your country visit his shrine and makes prayers even today each day... Also u ever heard or read about Quṭb-ud-din Bakhtiyar Kaki, Baba Farid Ganj Shakar and Nizam-ud-Din Auliya, these were the people who became actual role models for people of this region who spiritually transformed the lives of people with love and peace. Then there were people like Shah Waliullah who not only worked on religious aspects but worked being great scholar who did many reforms in politics, economy, education, social rights etc... Why I was asking again and again that how on earth someone can change his religion "by force" and become even more practical than who actually converted him :D logicaly he should rather hate new religion… So wherever and whenever it happened "by force" was never there to stay for long and would have never practically changed the lives of people... It was ACTUALLY the other things which I mentioned above, played the actual role to not only convert the people, purely by their personal choice but also loved to pass their lives all according to Islamic rules and that is the reason why this region even today have world's best Islamic scholars who are even today able to convert people with 0% element of force (I hope you wont ask again why I seems happy on this factor) rather their own practical lives becomes role models so people opt to convert after getting knowledge, understanding to Islam and completely with their personal choice...

[Asim]

Can you directly comment on this ( without being evasive ) ? : http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/34770/force It VERY CLEARLY answers your question.

and what about all detail I told? would you ever try to comment on that?

[Asim]

Can you directly comment on this ( without being evasive ) ? : http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/34770/force It VERY CLEARLY answers your question.

Well I should end your delusion, although so far I have come to know you hate Islam only for the sake of hating Islam, nothing else. For your kind info, references inside your link are taken simply out of context; I am not bound to follow thoughts of your favt mufti sb but definably will give you logical reason. If you really want to know what it is all about, find and read all the verses written before and after these which are actually taken from details of some particular events occurred that time and definitely not the global rules but have only to do with the time and events they are written about.