kabira Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Govt. lost it completely. How can you first allow him to gather there and then after full day you are saying, he was given permission to conduct yoga camp....LOL, so what changed in a day. I am afraid this is getting uglier by the day. Ramdev Baba is furious and actually crying in front of media..LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 For those endorsing democracy, do Ramdev and his supporters have a right to protest on that ground ? Under what charge, have govt. cracked down on people sleeping on the ground. /story I guess cracking down on sleeping people is violation of fundamental rights..! Baba Ramdev may be asking for ridiculous demands but he has every right to protest peacefully. Govt has no right to use tear gases on peaceful protest. I think Govt has to pay the price for it in the future. ViruRules, Do you ever sleep? He obtained permit to use the ground for a purpose different from fast/protest as per the Delhi government. Secondly, this was never going to be a peaceful demonstration. Btw, if he is so keen why doesn't he become an elected representative, go to the parliament and do something there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 No, if you worry about where your next meal is coming up or how you are going to pay next months rent, who the eff would care about anything bigger, thats not "stupidity" thats "reality", lets not demean the struggles 60-70% of Indians go through everyday. Thats why I said blame the system not the people. Look your point is valid, but at some level if that 60-70% doesn't help us to break this vicious circle we will never get out. This worries me. I don't intend to demean anyone but loads of people sell their vote for a bottle of arrack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asterix Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 He obtained permit to use the ground for a purpose different from fast/protest as per the Delhi government. Secondly, this was never going to be a peaceful demonstration. Btw, if he is so keen why doesn't he become an elected representative, go to the parliament and do something there? The Parliament has FAILED! How can you force a Govt. to act? The opposition tried various means. If they indulge in debates, then they are shouted down and Govt. carries on. If they boycott the Parliament sessions then the opposition is blamed for wasting money, time and shying away from "debate". You think Parliament debates, JPC, PAC etc. would've been able to nail Kalmadi, Raja, Kani etc.? Why do you think Supreme court is monitoring everything? I think your suggestion will be better if you suggest him to become a Supreme court judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 He obtained permit to use the ground for a purpose different from fast/protest as per the Delhi government. Secondly, this was never going to be a peaceful demonstration. Btw, if he is so keen why doesn't he become an elected representative, go to the parliament and do something there? As per Delhi govt.? Well they seemed to be okay with it till he was negotiating with the govt. To uphold the law, they had to come midnight and beat innocent women and children among others. Daal poor kaali hai. As for it being peaceful protest or not, maybe you know something that i don't. But under the constitution, if the govt fears violence they can take the person under custody beforehand which they didn't. As for second part, can't this be said to almost anybody who has an opinion on some issue of national importance ? I am not a supporter of Ramdev but he has a right to form association and protest and no one think that black money is a non issue except maybe diggi baba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asterix Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 As per Delhi govt.? Well they seemed to be okay with it till he was negotiating with the govt. To uphold the law, they had to come midnight and beat innocent women and children among others. Daal poor kaali hai. As for it being peaceful protest or not, maybe you know something that i don't. But under the constitution, if the govt fears violence they can take the person under custody beforehand which they didn't. As for second part, can't this be said to almost anybody who has an opinion on some issue of national importance ? I am not a supporter of Ramdev but he has a right to form association and protest and no one think that black money is a non issue except maybe diggi baba. 4 senior cabinet ministers went to recieve him at the airport. 2 ministers spent hours discussing with him... :giggle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 He obtained permit to use the ground for a purpose different from fast/protest as per the Delhi government. Secondly, this was never going to be a peaceful demonstration. Btw, if he is so keen why doesn't he become an elected representative, go to the parliament and do something there? He indeed got the permission for yoga. But government should have stopped it before it all began. Why were they talking to him for whole day. Almost all the points were agreed by government except for one or two points. All they had to do is negotiate further and urge him to stop the fast. Why did they do at midnight when everyone was sleeping? All this are valid questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 The Parliament has FAILED! How can you force a Govt. to act? The opposition tried various means. If they indulge in debates, then they are shouted down and Govt. carries on. If they boycott the Parliament sessions then the opposition is blamed for wasting money, time and shying away from "debate". You think Parliament debates, JPC, PAC etc. would've been able to nail Kalmadi, Raja, Kani etc.? I fundamentally disagree with this attitude. You are denigrating the constitution of India. You have an elected government in place. We the people elected them, if you have such a serious trust deficit with this govt let them know in the elections by voting against them. Don't throw away the constitution because you have a poor government in place. Quite frankly, I don't believe that any govt can make a fundamental difference on the black money issue. If you want I can explain from an offshore finance perspective why these demands are nonsensical. Why do you think Supreme court is monitoring everything? I think your suggestion will be better if you suggest him to become a Supreme court judge. This is even worse, I am against this too. The judiciary is not supposed to violate the executive branch of the government. They are distinct and from a constitutional perspective the judiciary is not supposed to be administering new federal laws for the country etc. And the idea of Ramdev being a supreme court judge is laughable, it tells me how lowly the position of a Supreme court judge is regarded in India for you to even make this suggestion. We are talking about the Judge of the highest court in the Republic of India not some panchayat sarpanch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 As per Delhi govt.? Well they seemed to be okay with it till he was negotiating with the govt. To uphold the law, they had to come midnight and beat innocent women and children among others. Daal poor kaali hai. As for it being peaceful protest or not, maybe you know something that i don't. But under the constitution, if the govt fears violence they can take the person under custody beforehand which they didn't. As for second part, can't this be said to almost anybody who has an opinion on some issue of national importance ? I am not a supporter of Ramdev but he has a right to form association and protest and no one think that black money is a non issue except maybe diggi baba. I will provide you with an analogy, when you have union unrest what do you do?You try to negotiate first or directly close the factory and call the Police? The government made an effort to negotiate with an unreasonable person and they failed, now they are taking action. Should they have prevented him from entering Delhi? No. Because they cannot have known that he will misuse the permit he obtained for purposes other than he claimed. Once they came to know they tried to talk him out of it, when they failed they took action. I am not sure that they did anything wrong here. Black money maybe an issue but the lack of understanding of offshore finance among commoners is what is leading to all these stupid demands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 He indeed got the permission for yoga. But government should have stopped it before it all began. Why were they talking to him for whole day. Almost all the points were agreed by government except for one or two points. All they had to do is negotiate further and urge him to stop the fast. Why did they do at midnight when everyone was sleeping? All this are valid questions. No they tried to negotiate with him and that failed. Theyshould never have tried to negotiate with him and should have kicked him out of Delhi straight away. His demands are ignorant and idiotic. This is not a civil moment but essentially people trying to become extra constitutional figures who claim to know what is best for me and you. We have an elected government to do that and I still have faith in the constitution. I don't want these babas and baburaos running around telling me what is good for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asterix Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I fundamentally disagree with this attitude. You are denigrating the constitution of India. You have an elected government in place. We the people elected them, if you have such a serious trust deficit with this govt let them know in the elections by voting against them. Don't throw away the constitution because you have a poor government in place. Quite frankly, I don't believe that any govt can make a fundamental difference on the black money issue. If you want I can explain from an offshore finance perspective why these demands are nonsensical. This is even worse, I am against this too. The judiciary is not supposed to violate the executive branch of the government. They are distinct and from a constitutional perspective the judiciary is not supposed to be administering new federal laws for the country etc. And the idea of Ramdev being a supreme court judge is laughable, it tells me how lowly the position of a Supreme court judge is regarded in India for you to even make this suggestion. We are talking about the Judge of the highest court in the Republic of India not some panchayat sarpanch. If Govt. can't do anything about Black money issue then I don't know why the learned judges in Supreme court are wasting time in this issue. I know the suggestion of Ramdev becoming a Supreme court judge was laughable. He can't become one. He might not win elections. Even if becomes a MP, he might not be taken seriously. I mean which Govt. has taken Opposition MPs and small party MPs seriously? On top of that he is a Baba and not a Mulla so he's already an outcast.. Your suggestion that everybody should fight elections and go to Parliament to force Govt to do something on any issue is not practical.. Do you know anything about Syed Ali Shah Gilani and his meet in Delhi where he came and asked for the sedition of Kashmir and the same Delhi Police didn't do didly squat? I mean here are know people who are separatists and who can come and do what they want in Delhi and Police does nothing however the issues raised by a Baba (might be an attention *****) are not much anti-national that he and his peaceful supportes are chased away from Delhi.. A court had to order for FIRs to be filed. Look how efficient Delhi Police was against a Baba.. Court orders FIRs to be filed against Arundhati, Geelani The court rejected the status report submitted by the Delhi Police which said no offence relating to sedition and other charges were made out against Geelani and others. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/court-orders-firs-to-be-filed-against-arundh/717050/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 If Govt. can't do anything about Black money issue then I don't know why the learned judges in Supreme court are wasting time in this issue. There is a difference between prevention and getting back what you lost. Quite respectfully, Supreme court is not an expert on International finance. The only way you can request the Swiss to release the money to you is if you can go with a credible indictment of the people involved that the money was obtained through nefarious or illegal means. Short of that you can do squat. I know the suggestion of Ramdev becoming a Supreme court judge was laughable. He can't become one. He might not win elections. Even if becomes a MP' date=' he might not be taken seriously. I mean which Govt. has taken Opposition MPs and small party MPs seriously? On top of that he is a Baba and not a Mulla so he's already an outcast..[/quote'] You are constantly giving examples of failure of governance to justify throwing the constiution out of the window. I am not asking everyone to be a candidate in elections. Educated people who understand governence should do so instead of whining on NDTV and supporting babas. This just shows that the elected government is not ensuring a level playing field. Politics in India is still based more or less on demagogy, you need to have more education in order to sort that out. Some random baba is not going to solve this. Look you are mixing up different issues here. I am saying that I am not in favour of people trying to represent me in any capacity as if they are elected representatives as per the constitution of India. Let us keep the debate to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asterix Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Gunner, I can understand what you are saying and actually I agree with that. Parliament and elected leaders/parties should raise issues in right forum. It has been like that for so many years. it's not that civil society people have been holding Govts. for ransom every now and then.. You need to understand why all these are happening now. And why they are getting so much mass support. Remember, unless there's mass support, Govt. will not take you seriously anyway. Why do you think Govt. was forced to what civilian society demanded recently regarding "Anti-Graft Commission and bill"? If Govt. had been reasonable in taking some action through Parliament, Supreme court and civilian leaders didn't had to do all these things. Baba Ramdev is an attention ***** and infact he has actually undermined all the Civil society agitations for his own personal agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 >I am not asking everyone to be a candidate in elections. Educated people who understand governence should do so instead of whining on NDTV and supporting babas. Wow, do you know some ppl even do that. Kejriwala contested election in Mumbai, and lost. I can't remember the name of that lady executive, who also contested election and lost. Its not that easy to win in election, you need money, lot of money to campaign etc. Basically what you are saying is the government was elected and therefore we should not protest and wait for next election, and let them screw us for another 2-3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 You need to understand why all these are happening now. And why they are getting so much mass support. Remember, unless there's mass support, Govt. will not take you seriously anyway. Why do you think Govt. was forced to what civilian society demanded recently regarding "Anti-Graft Commission and bill"? If Govt. had been reasonable in taking some action through Parliament, Supreme court and civilian leaders didn't had to do all these things. Two points: A) I am not against civil movements, I am just not in favour of people like the baba or Anna hazare trying to represent me when they have not been elected to do so. Asking for the anti graft bill was not wrong but then trying to draft it is. Laying down the federal law of the land is the sole purview of the Government of India as per pour constitution and we should respect that. Ask for changes in law but don't allow all these people to write up draconian laws which cannot be implemented. These civil movements are violating both the constitution and the Executive branch of the government. If you are not happy with what the government comes up with vote against them, that is what a democracy stands for not to violate the very ethos of the consitution and trying to draft laws or asking the judiciary to violate the role of the executive. B) Failure of the government to implement or enforce a law is not the basis for violating the constitution or having people such as anna hazare or the baba to become our de facto representatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asterix Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Two points: A) I am not against civil movements, I am just not in favour of people like the baba or Anna hazare trying to represent me when they have not been elected to do so. Asking for the anti graft bill was not wrong but then trying to draft it is. Laying down the federal law of the land is the sole purview of the Government of India as per pour constitution and we should respect that. Ask for changes in law but don't allow all these people to write up draconian laws which cannot be implemented. These civil movements are violating both the constitution and the Executive branch of the government. If you are not happy with what the government comes up with vote against them, that is what a democracy stands for not to violate the very ethos of the consitution and trying to draft laws or asking the judiciary to violate the role of the executive. B) Failure of the government to implement or enforce a law is not the basis for violating the constitution or having people such as anna hazare or the baba to become our de facto representatives. What you say is fine. So it comes down to voting. But whoever promises moar (Mixer+Grinder > Mixer wonly) wins the elections.. Is it okay for you? i think you've got everything wrong. You are saying about constitution but do you know that Constitution gives right to people for peaceful protests? Those people were not rioting out there. They would've left after a few days of protests. What was the need to wake them up at midnight and chase them away and in the process ggiving the Baba a lifeline? You live in UK. You think people should not be allowed to protest around westminister? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 wow' date=' do you know some ppl even do that. Kejriwala contested election in Mumbai, and lost. I can't remember the name of that lady executive, who also contested election and lost. Its not that easy to win in election, you need money, lot of money to campaign etc.[/quote'] I am happy that they contested and as more people contest they will start winning in the future. This kind of evolution will take time in a country like India, there is no quick fix. Thet students movement in Assam was elected all those years ago, wasn't it? They went the dogs way is a different issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asterix Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I am happy that they contested and as more people contest they will start winning in the future. This kind of evolution will take time in a country like India, there is no quick fix. Thet students movement in Assam was elected all those years ago, wasn't it? They went the dogs way is a different issue. No. I am saying random people shouldn't become defacto representatives and start drafting laws which is the purview of the Government of India as per the constitution. Everyone is looking for a quick fix, there is none. What do you know about Anna Hazare, Santosh Hegde etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 What you say is fine. So it comes down to voting. But whoever promises moar (Mixer+Grinder > Mixer wonly) wins the elections.. Is it okay for you? This won't change in one night. India is a young country with a lot of poor and uneducated people. Reforms will happen over time. i think you've got everything wrong. You are saying about constitution but do you know that Constitution gives right to people for peaceful protests? Those people were not rioting out there. They would've left after a few days of protests. What was the need to wake them up at midnight and chase them away and in the process ggiving the Baba a lifeline? You live in UK. You think people should not be allowed to protest around westminister? I am not saying they shouldn't protest. Look, if you have a reasonable agenda do protest. DO you think that Ramdev had any reasonable demands? He is an idiot and will undermine the voice of the people by pretending to represent them. Read my post carefully and I stated clearly what my oppositions is. To reiterate: A) Don't pretend to be my representative since I did not elect you and B) Don't try to write laws this is the job of the GoI. Arre administer your existing alws properly, there is no need for new ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 What do you know about Anna Hazare' date=' Santosh Hegde etc.?[/quote'] Why should I care? Are they elected to represent me, No. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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