Sachin Tendulkar or Vivian Richards?

[velu]

We learn new things at ICF on a daily basis ... so today we learn that Viv Richards and Tendulkars ODI careers are "EVENLY matched" (just don't ask why and how ) . Small mercies that the same isn't being said about the test records.

and we also learned another thing at ICF dude.. Zimbabwe bowling is not minnowesque between 1990 to 2002 :icflove:

[Marut]

Viv scored at nearly run a ball in ODIs at a time when average team scores used to be 220 and yet finished with a higher career ODI average. Richards - daylight - Tendulkar for ODIs. There used to be a time when I thought Sachin would surpass Viv ( that was in the nineties) but Sachin became a good accumulator and did not turn out to be a terror for bowlers and fans of the opposition. He still scored a brisk pace but when you compare with Viv, this is nothing. The gap between Richards and others of his time in ODIs is so much greater than between any two top players of today.

[Marut]

cricinfo has to take share of the blame.. for over-simplifying cricket with numbers. :cantstop: . It is not the numbers that Richards was known for. He was never known for that. Yes.. wearing a cap and walking into ground with swagger..the sheer intimidation factor that seperated him from many players past or present. Only other guy who came close to bringing that intimidation to the ground was Sanath Jayasuriya. For heavensake Tilan Samaraweera has better averages than both. But none can question the legacy of either Richards or Jayasuriya for that matter based on that.

+1

[akshayxyz]

Viv scored at nearly run a ball in ODIs at a time when average team scores used to be 220 and yet finished with a higher career ODI average. Richards - daylight - Tendulkar for ODIs. There used to be a time when I thought Sachin would surpass Viv ( that was in the nineties) but Sachin became a good accumulator and did not turn out to be a terror for bowlers and fans of the opposition. He still scored a brisk pace but when you compare with Viv' date=' this is nothing. The gap between Richards and others of his time in ODIs is so much greater than between any two top players of today.[/quote'] One of the few problems with comparison is that one is opener, other was not. Also, Richard's used to average 52-53 until 1987-88, after that it kept coming down - to stop at 47.

[akshayxyz]

Not much fan of statsguru filters, but something interesting about viv in ODIs home ODI average = 36.6 (26 innings) away ODI average = 56.8 (82) neutral ODI avg = 38 (59) Which seems to suggest that he made most of bilateral away ODIs, but I was sure it does not take care of WC/tourney matches against opposition in their country. Which is supported by the fact that he averages 63 in WC matches. Another interesting piece. as a captain - 38.8 (105 matches !!) not a captain - 57 (80 matches)

[Ultimate_Game]

Not much fan of statsguru filters, but something interesting about viv in ODIs home ODI average = 36.6 (26 innings) away ODI average = 56.8 (82) neutral ODI avg = 38 (59) Which seems to suggest that he made most of bilateral away ODIs, but I was sure it does not take care of WC matches against opposition in their country. Which is supported by the fact that he averages 63 in WC matches. Another interesting piece. as a captain - 38.8 (105 matches !!) not a captain - 57 (80 matches)

Just curious... what's the difference between away and neutral?

[akshayxyz]

Just curious... what's the difference between away and neutral?

I think it should be like - playing in Sharjah, or WC/3-4 team tourney/.. (excluding against host country)

[Ultimate_Game]

I think it should be like - playing in Sharjah' date=' or WC/3-4 team tourney/.. (excluding against host country)[/quote'] Gotcha! Essentially when you are playing at a venue where it's not the home venue of the opposing team as well.

[Marut]

One of the few problems with comparison is that one is opener, other was not. Also, Richard's used to average 52-53 until 1987-88, after that it kept coming down - to stop at 47.

Yes, Richards at his peak was incomparable. After 83 his prowess starting waning gradually. But he ruled cricket rankings for like 10 years. This is no ordinary acheivment against players like Gavaskar, Miandad etc. In ODIs it is easier to score at the opening slot rather than at 4th or 5th ( power plays have changed the equation of late), provided you can handle the new ball. In test matches it is harder to bat at the top. Sachin himself struggled in ODIs until he was moved to the top of the order in a NZ game, whence he made it his own spot.

[akshayxyz]

Yes, Richards at his peak was incomparable. After 83 his prowess starting waning gradually. But he ruled cricket rankings for like 10 years. This is no ordinary acheivment against players like Gavaskar, Miandad etc.

Careers of Sachin and Richards reflect different aspects. So, IMO comparison is not fair....there is no sure shot way of saying who trumps the other - convincingly.

In ODIs it is easier to score at the opening slot rather than at 4th or 5th ( power plays have changed the equation of late), provided you can handle the new ball. In test matches it is harder to bat at the top. Sachin himself struggled in ODIs until he was moved to the top of the order in a NZ game, whence he made it his own spot.

How many openers have been able to cash on this ? - in terms of averages + SR over long periods. Even today ( at least in last 20 years), best averages are seen lower in the order.

[Ultimate_Game]

Careers of Sachin and Richards reflect different aspects. So, IMO comparison is not fair....there is no sure shot way of saying who trumps the other - convincingly. How many openers have been able to cash on this ? - in terms of averages + SR over long periods. Even today ( at least in last 20 years), best averages are seen lower in the order.

Other than Bevan, Dhoni and Hussey the best averages have been at the top of batting order (positions 1-4). Tendulkar, Amla, Kallis, Richards, Zaheer Abbas, AB De Villiers, Hayden etc. immediately come to mind.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Ultimate_Game]

lol and then you keep arguing as though you are dead certain about things ... when you don't even know basic stuff.

I really fail to understand the significance of distinction between "neutral" and "away" averages and your post. Are you telling me Tendulkar's innings against B'desh was not selfish or Tendulkar is greater than Bradman and I am not able to perceive the same coz I don't comprehend the importance of "neutral" average :haha:

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Ultimate_Game]

more like "when you don't understand basic stuff what are the chances that you would understand complex stuff ?" Non existant based on your past posts ... which is why you come up with gems like SRT's inngs in the SF didnt matter or that there is less pressure in Ind/Pak WC matches than in the final etc etc.

Sure, why not! After all how can I not see what a great selfless innings SRT played against B'desh, or how can I ever comprehend how far ahead likes of SRT, Dravid, Ponting, Samaraweera, Kallis etc. are compared to Bradman coz of "neutral" averages What next? Munaf better than Marshall coz i don't comprehend his "neutral" average either :cantstop: Between I would love to see the posts where my lack of understanding of "neutral" averages shows up in any discussion or post I made.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Crookbond]

Not because of "Neutral Avg" in itself. The chances of you knowing and understanding the nitty gritty and finer aspects of the game are slim because you don't know such a basic concept such as the Neutral venue. This is further confirmed by the many idiotic claims you have made in the past.

I doubt it was that way. He just wanted to know what akshayxyz was alluding to, as far as I can infer. He makes a very fine point too about neutral venue which may have been missed by akshayxyz.

[pensionplan]

The chances of you knowing and understanding the nitty gritty and finer aspects of the game are slim because you don't know such a basic concept such as the Neutral venue. This is further confirmed by the many idiotic claims you have made in the past.

Wow just because someone does not hero worship Tendulkar as he does indulge in personal attacks and insults. Typical Bossbhai.

[panesarv]

Vivian....because he was fearless

[Ultimate_Game]

Not because of "Neutral Avg" in itself. The chances of you knowing and understanding the nitty gritty and finer aspects of the game are slim because you don't know such a basic concept such as the Neutral venue. This is further confirmed by the many idiotic claims you have made in the past.

Yup I am sure I can't understand the "nitty gritty" and "finer aspects of the game" and that's the reason I can't appreciate the wonderful way SRT paced his innings against B'desh, and I am sure that's the reason why I don't have an understanding of why guys like Kallis, SRT, Ponting, Dravid, Samaraweera, Younus Khan etc. are ahead of bradman :facepalm: Yup I get it now. The reason I don't get these "finer points" is coz I never appreciated the concept of neutral averages :giggle: Go ahead and enlighten us some more about other "finer points" Maybe we might appreciate how Hobbs was ordinary for starters :haha: