Emerging Players tournament, 2011

[Cricket Tragic]

What is with the 'lucky charm' obsession on this forum?

[Blue Panther]

I dont know why people are talking only about varun aaron and forgot umesh yadav. I have seen him hitting 153k at ipl and i do think he has the potential to bowl long spells at pace.

[rkt.india]

I dont know why people are talking only about varun aaron and forgot umesh yadav. I have seen him hitting 153k at ipl and i do think he has the potential to bowl long spells at pace.

yes, he looks to have the best stamina among Indian pacers to bowl long spells.

[msb1991]

I dont know why people are talking only about varun aaron and forgot umesh yadav. I have seen him hitting 153k at ipl and i do think he has the potential to bowl long spells at pace.

yes' date=' he looks to have the best stamina among Indian pacers to bowl long spells.[/quote'] The issue is that if your main and only weapon is speed, you cannot afford to occasionally drop down to the 130-135kph range which is what Yadav does. Steyn drops to that range but always replaces it with relentless accuracy and/or big swing. India far too often allows bowlers to stagnate without developing skills. Someone like Ishant is someone who actually hasn't stagnated. He may have struggled for rhythm but has developed reverse swing nicely. Moreover, the bowlers of truly express pace, selected for their pace, only had sporadic success at Test cricket. Akhtar was an injury case, Lee had success at the beginning and middle of his career but was very inconsistent if you look at the numbers, Tait never had success, Hayward was poor. So in the modern era, the success of the truly quick bowlers, selected for their pace hasn't been great. I'd like to hear your views on this.

[Blue Panther]

The issue is that if your main and only weapon is speed, you cannot afford to occasionally drop down to the 130-135kph range which is what Yadav does. Steyn drops to that range but always replaces it with relentless accuracy and/or big swing. India far too often allows bowlers to stagnate without developing skills. Someone like Ishant is someone who actually hasn't stagnated. He may have struggled for rhythm but has developed reverse swing nicely. Moreover, the bowlers of truly express pace, selected for their pace, only had sporadic success at Test cricket. Akhtar was an injury case, Lee had success at the beginning and middle of his career but was very inconsistent if you look at the numbers, Tait never had success, Hayward was poor. So in the modern era, the success of the truly quick bowlers, selected for their pace hasn't been great. I'd like to hear your views on this.

I agree, But i have watched umesh yadav in domestic test matches and he seems to be the one who can bowl at pace for a long spell. I think in the tour of zimbabwe his pace was less and i think he was asked by our coache to bowl at less pace. But in a recent interview umesh did say that indian bowling coach asked him not to reduce pace which is his main strength. I have never seen or heard that umesh missed a match due to an injury like our other pacers even in the domestic tournaments which proves that he has the stamina to be a real quick bowler. Akthar wasn't a hard worker and his attitude led him down and he looked overweight and was operated (liposuction) to reduce his weight. Brett lee did very well for 7-8 years for australian team and he is still playing for them. Tait has this slinging action and he was bound to get injured in his elbow and he accepts it. Umesh is neither overweight nor he has a very complex bowling action. I do think umesh and varun will lead our pace attack in the future.

[Cricket Tragic]

New Zealand A have greatly benefited from being part of the Emerging Players Tournament in Queensland, according to team manager Grant Bradburn. New Zealand failed to win a game in the Twenty20 format of the tournament, and won only one three-day match, but Bradburn said the experience would help the players once the home domestic season started. "Playing competitive international cricket at this time of year in those conditions is just absolute gold for their preparation leading into our summer," Bradburn, who also coaches Northern Districts, told New Zealand Herald."All those guys that got experience there will be that much better off for our domestic season." The EPT also featured teams from Australia, India and South Africa. New Zealand won one of the three T20 games played and finished last on run-rate. They fared better in the three-day format, as they lost one game and drew two, finishing third in the standings. "There were different challenges for us," Bradburn said. "It was a three-day concept with no first-innings points, so it really created some urgency in terms of thinking about where we wanted to be positioned in the game. "The whole concept gets a big plus in terms of the opportunities players were presented with," Bradburn said. "There's clearly opportunities at the Black Caps level and some guys have advanced their standing and taken the chance to put themselves further forward towards that recognition." Allrounder Doug Bracewell was the standout performer for New Zealand in the T20 format with 91 runs and five wickets from three games. In the three-day format, Dean Brownlie was the second highest run-scorer of the tournament, making 413 runs from three games at an average of 103.25, with one century and two half-centuries. "His technique was impressive, he was very consistent on tour," Bradburn said of Brownlie. "He's well equipped to score runs at a higher level."

[msb1991]

I agree' date=' But i have watched umesh yadav in domestic test matches and he seems to be the one who can bowl at pace for a long spell. I think in the tour of zimbabwe his pace was less and i think he was asked by our coache to bowl at less pace. But in a recent interview umesh did say that indian bowling coach asked him not to reduce pace which is his main strength. I have never seen or heard that umesh missed a match due to an injury like our other pacers even in the domestic tournaments which proves that he has the stamina to be a real quick bowler.[/quote'] Yadav had a stress fracture which meant that he missed IPL 2, if I'm not mistaken. His return to cricket involved some very poor limited overs performances. His performance in Zimbabwe fills me with skepticism. Here, you had a guy who was in the team for his pace bowling at around 130-140kph. Dinda was faster but no one on this board ever talks about him for some reason. To say Akhtar wasn't a hard worker is to over simplify. I recall watching a video saying that due to his hypermobility in his joints, he is lucky to ever be injury free. I have a friend with hypermobility and it really causes him pain in his knees and all over. Such a condition might mean he would prefer weight training to cardio. Heck, for all we know, cardio might be difficult for him due to his hypermobility. As for Tait, he has injury issues, but when he played in a Test against India, I think he was full fitness. He bowled up to 155kph and he cannot do that when he isn't fully fit - surely no one can. Yet he still went for runs. Pace alone cannot get Test wickets on modern pitches.

[Blue Panther]

Yadav had a stress fracture which meant that he missed IPL 2, if I'm not mistaken. His return to cricket involved some very poor limited overs performances. His performance in Zimbabwe fills me with skepticism. Here, you had a guy who was in the team for his pace bowling at around 130-140kph. Dinda was faster but no one on this board ever talks about him for some reason. To say Akhtar wasn't a hard worker is to over simplify. I recall watching a video saying that due to his hypermobility in his joints, he is lucky to ever be injury free. I have a friend with hypermobility and it really causes him pain in his knees and all over. Such a condition might mean he would prefer weight training to cardio. Heck, for all we know, cardio might be difficult for him due to his hypermobility. As for Tait, he has injury issues, but when he played in a Test against India, I think he was full fitness. He bowled up to 155kph and he cannot do that when he isn't fully fit - surely no one can. Yet he still went for runs. Pace alone cannot get Test wickets on modern pitches.

yadav started to play from 3rd ipl. I dont think he had stress fracture or if u have a proof pls share it with us. Akhtar put on lot of weight and had to go through lipsuction to get rid of his excess fat. Yes he had hypermobility and somehow the icc did allowed him to chuck with that excuse. Even muralitharan and rp singh had the same advantage. I agree pace cannot get u wickets, but tait's action is so explosive and it was hard to controll line and length with his action. But when he gets it right, he is very dangerous.

[rkt.india]

]The issue is that if your main and only weapon is speed' date=' you cannot afford to occasionally drop down to the 130-135kph range which is what Yadav does. Steyn drops to that range but always replaces it with relentless accuracy and/or big swing. [/b']India far too often allows bowlers to stagnate without developing skills. Someone like Ishant is someone who actually hasn't stagnated. He may have struggled for rhythm but has developed reverse swing nicely. Moreover, the bowlers of truly express pace, selected for their pace, only had sporadic success at Test cricket. Akhtar was an injury case, Lee had success at the beginning and middle of his career but was very inconsistent if you look at the numbers, Tait never had success, Hayward was poor. So in the modern era, the success of the truly quick bowlers, selected for their pace hasn't been great. I'd like to hear your views on this.

You are saying this because you have not seen him swinging the ball. He bowls outswingers at pace. He has not bowled much in conditions favorable to swing. I saw him in Challenger trophy final last year and whenever he pitched the ball up he swung it away. He is not express like 150K+ consistently yet like Lee or Akhtar but between 140-145 and he is not yet international standard, but my point is most Indian players improve when they play international cricket. Our FC standard does not let them improve much. Remember, Steyn already has 5-6 years of experience in international cricket and he learned these things as played more and another thing is Styen's bowling action is very conducive to swing the ball. Extra pace is just an added advantage for him. When I first saw Styen in 2006, he was slower than Yadav, but with time he increased his pace and Ian Pont had a big role in this. It is the work of coach to understand a bowler and his abilities and work through them and let the bowler know what is the right way for him to bowl like he is a short bowler so he must bowl fuller length most of the time to allow the ball to swing with mix of bouncers, but he most often bowls short. Most bowlers who can bowl reasonably quick try to do this, but you do not get wickets by bowling short all the time. This is the thing Yadav and Aaron both needs to learn. You talked about Dinda, but Dinda cannot bowl 140+ often. Its his effort deliveries which cross 140, otherwise he is 135K bowler mostly. In Devdhar trophy final, i watched live I saw how Dinda was not even able to cross 135K while Aaron crosses 147K easily and also moved the ball of the seam. Regarding Yadav's Zim tour, I feel he was holding himself back and was a bit nervous. You cannot discard players based on 3 ODIs. Main thing is how they develop these guys. These guys like Yadav, Aaron, and Rahul Shukla all three can touch 150K have lots of abilities and natural talent of pace, but pace alone cannot make them world beater, they will need proper guidance and a bowling coach can play a big role in this regard. We need to see if our current bowling coach is doing good or not.

[rkt.india]

yadav started to play from 3rd ipl. I dont think he had stress fracture or if u have a proof pls share it with us. Akhtar put on lot of weight and had to go through lipsuction to get rid of his excess fat. Yes he had hypermobility and somehow the icc did allowed him to chuck with that excuse. Even muralitharan and rp singh had the same advantage. I agree pace cannot get u wickets, but tait's action is so explosive and it was hard to controll line and length with his action. But when he gets it right, he is very dangerous.

Yes Yadav had a back stress fracture in before IPL 2009 that is why he could not play in IPL2 which was held in South Africa, but his pace has gone up in IPL 4. in IPL 3 he touched 147 but in IPL 4, he touched 150+, fastest being 152+.

[nsareen]

Yes Yadav had a back stress fracture in before IPL 2009 that is why he could not play in IPL2 which was held in South Africa' date=' but his pace has gone up in IPL 4. in IPL 3 he touched 147 but in IPL 4, he touched 150+, fastest being 152+.[/quote'] IPL 4 speeds were usually a touch on a higher side, i remember Ishant touching 150+ regularly, i mean 20+ times atleast, and in England , where he was supposed to be faster, he has touched 145-146 on some occasions, which is pretty good for Test Match Cricket, but comparing the speed guns, i feel IPL4 speeds were inconsistent. Though I see Umesh has put on some muscle, he looks a strong, fit guy. Varun vs Umesh 1)Umesh : Not accurate, with the pace he has , if he is accurate, he can be damaging.: Varun seems to be a bit more accurate. 2) Umesh: Not Enough Bounce due to lack of height, he will not be someone who would get extra bounce, he will get bounce when he puts the extra effort.Varun: Is taller and gets extra bounce. 3) Run Up not very smooth, he seems to skid on at the last lap , approach on the wicket, Varun, has a very clean runup. Varun is a better quality in terms of the complete package, but i sincerely hope umesh proves me wrong by being more accurate, generate high pace, and gets some skill with swing, going on for him.

[rkt.india]

IPL 4 speeds were usually a touch on a higher side' date=' i remember Ishant touching 150+ regularly, i mean 20+ times atleast, and in England , where he was supposed to be faster, he has touched 145-146 on some occasions, which is pretty good for Test Match Cricket, but comparing the speed guns, i feel IPL4 speeds were inconsistent.[/quote'] Ishant only bowled 150K In one match if I remember against RCB at Hyderabad on a wicket which had a lot of help for the bowlers and in T20 where they only bowl 4 overs in a match, it is easy to put a bit extra effort because if speed gun was high, Styen too should have been clocked faster than Ishant but he was not. Ishant had out bowled Styen in that match in terms of pace. Ishant was certainly 140+ most often in IPL4. Speed guns are even inconsistent in SL-AUs ODI series where Bollinger is showed at 126K when he is bowling fast and Malinga's Yorkers are shown at 133-135K while he most often bowls 140K+. Even Brett Lee and Johnson is struggling to go over 140K according to speed guns but we can see they are certainly bowling quick.

[msb1991]

Speed guns are only really useful for showing the relative speeds of bowlers in a match - ie. who has bowled quickest in the match. I think that the human eye can judge the effectiveness of a bowler's speed, from there, imo.

[nsareen]

Ishant only bowled 150K In one match if I remember against RCB at Hyderabad on a wicket which had a lot of help for the bowlers and in T20 where they only bowl 4 overs in a match, it is easy to put a bit extra effort because if speed gun was high, Styen too should have been clocked faster than Ishant but he was not. Ishant had out bowled Styen in that match in terms of pace. Ishant was certainly 140+ most often in IPL4. Speed guns are even inconsistent in SL-AUs ODI series where Bollinger is showed at 126K when he is bowling fast and Malinga's Yorkers are shown at 133-135K while he most often bowls 140K+. Even Brett Lee and Johnson is struggling to go over 140K according to speed guns but we can see they are certainly bowling quick.

I think you din't catch my point. Firstly Ishant bowled 150+ in 3-4 matches i was very much following his progress, and i know how excited i was to see he out bowled Steyn in Pace, he was down in pace, in the chennai match when he was hammered by Albie Morkel for 3 consecutive sixes. But what i'm saying is you were saying Umesh has picked up on pace from the last season, which i'm skeptical on, i feel he looked fast to the normal eye, but the guns which said 152+ is should not be relied on to set his pace. I feel he is 135-145KMPH bowler for, if he can maintain his pace in the International stage, that would help his cause.

[rkt.india]

Speed guns are only really useful for showing the relative speeds of bowlers in a match - ie. who has bowled quickest in the match. I think that the human eye can judge the effectiveness of a bowler's speed' date=' from there, imo.[/quote'] Read my point about Yadav and role of a coach above.

[rkt.india]

I think you din't catch my point. Firstly Ishant bowled 150+ in 3-4 matches i was very much following his progress, and i know how excited i was to see he out bowled Steyn in Pace, he was down in pace, in the Chennai match when he was hammered by Albie Morkel for 3 consecutive sixes. But what i'm saying is you were saying Umesh has picked up on pace from the last season, which i'm skeptical on, i feel he looked fast to the normal eye, but the guns which said 152+ is should not be relied on to set his pace. I feel he is 135-145KMPH bowler for, if he can maintain his pace in the International stage, that would help his cause.

No. you should see he certainly looked faster than the previous addition against KRR and Kocchi match at Kotla. Though Mcculum hit him for some easy boundaries some good shots and through edges in that match but you could see how ball were searing through. He was asked to bowl as fast as he could by DD team management and he certainly bowled very quick on some occasions. And Ishant is more of a rhythm bowler when he is running well and in rhythm and action is coming out good then he can bowl as fast as any but not on consistent basis right now.

[rkt.india]

I believe any bowler who can bowl at 140K with consistency, little bit of movement to create doubts and can vary his length by bouncers and yorkers is good enough to trouble any batsman. Key is consistent line and length around off stump, wicket to wicket, most often, it give a bowler most probable chances to take wickets.

[msb1991]

Read my point about Yadav and role of a coach above.

I have read it. Nothing to say really. The question is are there any good coaches in India and where are they.

[rkt.india]

I have read it. Nothing to say really. The question is are there any good coaches in India and where are they.

We have a bowling coach with Indian team. It is his job to improve our bowling resources by improving our young upcoming fast bowlers. If he is no good, why is he there then?

[nsareen]

We have a bowling coach with Indian team. It is his job to improve our bowling resources by improving our young upcoming fast bowlers. If he is no good' date=' why is he there then?[/quote'] He is there so that BCCI can say we have a coach, but the Role n Responsibilities of the bowling coach for India, are probably to 1) Slow down the pace if the bowler is pretty quick, this will improve the confidence of the batsman 2) focus on all those things which the bowler can't do naturally, this will lower the confidence of the bowler. 3) Do not preach to the Indian Bowlers, they are pretty rich so would not listen to your preachings, they like to live life large and not be told what to do. 4) Make notes, for every thing that goes on, then make a library out of those notes, and if there are improvements, do not suggest to the bowler, this will help the bowler repeat the same mistakes. Then BCCI gives such a coach a nice hefty pay package, all are happy except the indian fans ofcourse.