Guest dada_rocks Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 And that is the essential crux of the difference that you are not appreciating. You say that Islam gets jabbed here by many and that nonsense isn't tolerated at PP at all. But do you have muslims there discussing Islam and criticising an idea/tenet etc ? Hardly. There was only one thread i noticed (i hvnt been there for years i just did a quick search in OT) that discussed whether sharia was just to all or not. Here, you have criticism of hinduism by hindus and non-hindus alike too- hell, i've been vocally against some aspects of hinduism here and my stuff still survives in the OT. And you surely can't call me a total muslim basher either- coz i get called muslim bootlicker from the other side... What you or PP does not get is that there is a difference between criticism and denigration. What you or PP does not get is that if ANY topic is closed to criticism or critical analysis, then it becomes a BLIND DOGMA. What you or PP do not get is that it is a very useful & important lesson to train yourself to hear thy/thy beleif's criticism. Not shut it out. And surely you cannot think that moderation there is more consistent- while there is little or any jibe vs Islam tolerated there, there are snippets of jibs denegrating everyone else throughout PP- with 'racist aussie' comment to ' weak hindu' comments. I agree that this site has a large volume of Islam's criticism than any other criticism but that is because of the demographics of the site. But in terms of level of criticism tolerated, all are pretty equally tolerated. I've made comments akin to 'if you are saying this, then by your logic, Krishna was a man-slut' and its still here...that is about as critical of hinduism as any of Islam in here. What we try to cut out is denigrating name-calling. In short, i hate to say this but PP is far more closeminded than ICF is - and this is as objective and factual an observation as it gets. Twice in a single day I am in consonance with ur post..:angry_smile: For instance there is a thread donning PP right now viz a viz muhammad's marrying spree. Opening parapgraphd says since while his first wife, who was also muhd's employer, was alive he didn't marry anyone hence he was not seeking carnal pleasure through various marriages which followed once his employer and first wife died. Now obvious question would be how many of guys dare to marry another girl when their subsistence depends on being in good book of his first wife. Nobody has asked this question and I am certain if u ask this they will ban you. I was banned on PP once because I posted Zaakri naik's one of the clownish videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Now obvious question would be how many of guys dare to marry another girl when their subsistence depends on being in good book of his first wife.Very true. Mohammed's first wife afterall, was the maalkin. Perhaps his hamstrung predicament ( having his hands tied due to financial dependence on his wife) was the reason he came up with such a male-biassed and sexist inheritance law in the Koran ? Remember, ancient arab society,like most nomadic societies were intensely patriarchal to begin with ( much more importance placed on survival due to physical fitness, where men inevitably win out). Mo feeling slighted/ego hurt coz wife had control in a society dominated by men.(older woman too- normally in patriarchal societies like ancient arabia, modern afghanistan/NWFP,etc it was/is the other way round..men were in charge..so older men went for young women, not other way round). I think this psycho-analytical perspective is worth exploring though it might be too explosive for this website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 This is just unnecessary publicity for that site, I am afraid. It sure is. It also is blatantly unfair for us to criticize another website when the other party does not have anyone to defend them. True couple of our Pakistani posters have been doing that for now, but they are as much our poster as any other websites. I would humbly suggest everyone to drop this comparison of websites and get back to original thought of this thread. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 It sure is. It also is blatantly unfair for us to criticize another website when the other party does not have anyone to defend them. True couple of our Pakistani posters have been doing that for now, but they are as much our poster as any other websites. I would humbly suggest everyone to drop this comparison of websites and get back to original thought of this thread. xxx people seem to respond more to the comparison than the OP... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Comparisons are fun though!:P Are Indians intellectually ahead of Pakistanis or is just because there are more of us? There is no doubt that there are far more white collar professionals in practically in any part of the world from east of the border. Not just medicine, engineering or IT, but India has produced some amazing enterpreuners, who used their grey matter to start up businesses and build them into world beating marquees. That's reflected in the two forums as well. Our discussions on the General Forum tend to be very cerebral, well researched, while the other side of the divide talks about the mundane things in life. (Oh please Dhondy, listen to yourself!) On the other hand, Pakistanis are historically better than us at many sports, such as cricket, hockey and squash. I believe this is because sport is largely an instinctive pursuit, where passion and anger play a big part. Are our chances of beating Pakistan consistently at cricket nearly as remote as their odds of overtaking us at academics and business? (Don't kill me fellas, I know Gorah wouldn't have approved. BTW, where is he?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Comparisons are fun though!:P Are Indians intellectually ahead of Pakistanis or is just because there are more of us? There is no doubt that there are far more white collar professionals in practically in any part of the world from east of the border. Not just medicine, engineering or IT, but India has produced some amazing enterpreuners, who used their grey matter to start up businesses and build them into world beating marquees. Generally speaking Dhondy Indians would always have a leg-up over their counterparts from across the border when it comes to Academics. Now I know this is almost bordering on racism and I do realize that I am going to be biased in this as an Indian but there might be a certain truth when it comes to Academia. Look at it this way. In India, or should I say Indian culture, education is considered paramount. In this we are no different from Pakistan where most Pakistani parents want best education for their kids. What dffers though is how education is perceived. In India it is perceived as a gift of God. We have Godess Saraswati who is revered as Goddess of Learning and most students, specially those in small towns, will have a calendar with photo of Saraswati right opposite their reading table.Saraswati Puja(or Basant Panchami) is one of the most popular festivals for students. And even if you forget all of that how do you forget the culture where if you drop a book, or accidentally touch a book with your feet, you promptly lift it up and touch your forehead with it. The same is the case with pencil, pens or these days mouse and laptop. People think it is the IITs/IIMs that have made us a great country, I daresay it is this respect for education culture that has helped India. This is not different in the field of Arts and Culture where an artist, regardless of his/her religious leanings, performs a Namaskar for Gods and Goddesses before his performance, touches his sitar/flute/veena etc with respect and devotion. In my opinion this simple thing shall differentiate the culture on two sides of the border. There is a much greater chance that you would succeed in something if you love it and respect it no matter how old you get. xxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 But wherein lies the difference, Lurker? Does the pre-eminence of religion in the Pakistani society hinder their academic pursuits? Do Pakistani parents abroad not dream of putting their children through Oxford, Cambridge or Harvard? Do they not put their children through intellectual grilling growing up, often with painful consequences for failure, as our parents did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 But wherein lies the difference, Luker? Does the pre-eminence of religion in the Pakistani society hinder their academic pursuits? Do Pakistani parents abroad not dream of putting their children through Oxford, Cambridge or Harvard? Do they not put their children through intellectual grilling growing up, often with painful consequences for failure, as our parents did? That is a good question Dhondy. The role of religion itself can not be discarded. In an Islamic society religion is perhaps the biggest force so it would be imprudent to not find some connection with it. Part of the problem could be the emphasis on reciting Quran itself. Most childrens are supposed to be educated in Quran even though they do not understand it. It is not surprising since Arabic is not the de-facto language of Pakistan. Indeed I know many grown-ups who recite Quran or do namaaz without understanding it. I can not speak specifically for a Pakistani family, will leave that for MP and others, but I find it hard to beleive that a Pakistani kid is taught both Quran as well as modern education. In India of course it is only modern education and rarely are kids taught Geeta, Ramayana etc(though they do hear stories and such). As a result a 5 year old Indian kid would perhaps be in a better situation than a 5 year old Pakistani kid. And maybe that lag continues all along. xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment, Lurker. Also, what role do you think does the Indian mother play in her offsprings' success? It's no secret that erudite mothers produce super-erudite children. And even the most die-hard Pakistani would find it hard to dispel the notion that Indian women (this is the middle class I am talking about here) generally grow up in a more open, liberal society, with better opportunities for higher education, often without a glass ceiling, and this translates into little whizkids burning the midnight lamp by the time they are in their teens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 Are our chances of beating Pakistan consistently at cricket nearly as remote as their odds of overtaking us at academics and business? dhonds... i feel, u r carrying a baggage here.... . we have defeated them in all the world cups consistently, when mental steel matters the most.... we have defeated them in the last 2 odi series in their own backyard..... if u notice, there are more chances of a country becoming successful with smaller pool of players to pick from - oz, nz, pak etc compared to bigger pools like india, england.... therein lies ur explanation of why we struggle in world cricket.... but talent wise, we always have been par.... we struggled to produce an akram, younis while they struggle to produce a sachin, dravid, gavaskar.... heck, even they are strugglin to reproduce akram or younis.... they were lucky, that they had once in a life-time cricketers like waqar, wasim and saqlain play in the same era..... has happened to us with batters between 2001-2004 when we had a golden run inspite of poor bowlers..... has happened to aus earlier, has happened to windies.... windies still cant find another garner, holding.... i think, u r reading too much into it.... hockey - both teams have had their glories and embarrassments... now both teams are struggling to compete with modern professionalism.... we have won around 8 olympic golds, mind u... tht is almost 32 yrs of non-contiguous domination.... squash - i, rather most indians dont care.... it is very individualistic and requires stamina and finesse more than strength or anything.... F1, golf - we are faaar better.... soccer - we are better by a good 17 places... requires strength, stamina, skill... heck, they are even worse than bangladesh.... Basketball - requires good height, agility and athleticism... we are ranked 46 out of 75.... they are not even in the top 75..... Tennis - We are miles ahead.... we are almost in the top 10 countries with top ranked tennis players... requires again skill, agility and athleticism... Billliards - do i even have to talk abt it..... chess - again, we are world beaters next to the russians.... requires high intelligence.... Kabaddi - world number 1. requires strength, agility and strategy... athletics - we are miles ahead... u know wat tht requires... pt usha, milkha singh, shiny - a few names tht come to mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 As you and Boss point out, recent results at cricket have been better, Gats. Maybe because I am older than you, I haven't forgotten the more remote results. I think Pakistan's recent results in hockey though have been much better than us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 Dhonds... ur take on my post regardin other sports too?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 You are correct there. They usually beat us at Olympic boxing though! Sadly, not many follow those sports in either of our two countries. You reckon they'd beat us in those too if they had a larger following? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theguyinallblue Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 i think we have won many medals in women and men boxing in asiads...and other regional tournaments... not sure about olympics.. also Shooting... we are way ahead in shooting... Jaspal Rana, Joon, rathod, etc are pretty sharp guys..and they do well in world cups and other tournaments.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambit Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 dhonds... i feel, u r carrying a baggage here.... . we have defeated them in all the world cups consistently, when mental steel matters the most.... we have defeated them in the last 2 odi series in their own backyard..... if u notice, there are more chances of a country becoming successful with smaller pool of players to pick from - oz, nz, pak etc compared to bigger pools like india, england.... therein lies ur explanation of why we struggle in world cricket.... but talent wise, we always have been par.... we struggled to produce an akram, younis while they struggle to produce a sachin, dravid, gavaskar.... heck, even they are strugglin to reproduce akram or younis.... they were lucky, that they had once in a life-time cricketers like waqar, wasim and saqlain play in the same era..... has happened to us with batters between 2001-2004 when we had a golden run inspite of poor bowlers..... has happened to aus earlier, has happened to windies.... windies still cant find another garner, holding.... i think, u r reading too much into it.... hockey - both teams have had their glories and embarrassments... now both teams are struggling to compete with modern professionalism.... we have won around 8 olympic golds, mind u... tht is almost 32 yrs of non-contiguous domination.... squash - i, rather most indians dont care.... it is very individualistic and requires stamina and finesse more than strength or anything.... F1, golf - we are faaar better.... soccer - we are better by a good 17 places... requires strength, stamina, skill... heck, they are even worse than bangladesh.... Basketball - requires good height, agility and athleticism... we are ranked 46 out of 75.... they are not even in the top 75..... Tennis - We are miles ahead.... we are almost in the top 10 countries with top ranked tennis players... requires again skill, agility and athleticism... Billliards - do i even have to talk abt it..... chess - again, we are world beaters next to the russians.... requires high intelligence.... Kabaddi - world number 1. requires strength, agility and strategy... athletics - we are miles ahead... u know wat tht requires... pt usha, milkha singh, shiny - a few names tht come to mind... Good post gator :top: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Quite frankly there is no comparison between India and Pakistan when it comes to world of sports, unless you include cricket and hockey. Take for instance Lawn Tennis. This is easily one of the top 5 most popular sports in the world and in this sport India has the best record amongst all Asian countries, let alone Pakistan. India has produced greats like Ramanathan Krishnan and Vijay Amritraj both top 10 players of their times. India has reached the finals of Davis Cup, the biggest championship of tennis playing countries, not less than 3 times. Indian doubles partnetship of Paes and Bhupathi is considered one of the greatest ever and I am not even counting "smaller" achievements like Wimbledon Jr wins etc. Or take Badminton. India has produced atleast two greats - Prakash Padukone and Syed Modi. The former was one of the top 3 players of his time and also won the England Cup, the biggest championship in Badminton. Prakash Padukone and Morten Frost Hansen(Denmark) were the only two players who withstood the onslaught of Chinese and Indonesian players and more often than not come out trumps. In Chess India is again the leading Asian country with possible challenge coming from China. But while Chinese are great in women's section there is no comparison when it comes to Men where Anand is easily the greatest Asian player ever. The list can go on really but I have limited myself to more popular games for now. Coming to Hockey I would say this is where records are in favour of Pakistan, specially post Astro-Turf era. Not surprising since interst in hockey is lot more on Pakistan side than India's. As for cricket I much rather see the record as different eras. In the early days 50-60, Indias record is much better, in 70's it is even, in 80-90's it is in favour of Pakistan and since 2000 it is either in favour of India or 50-50. It is unfair to judge record of two countries based on a record of which 50%(or more) was played in a matter of decade only. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 How's Syed Modi a great, Lurker? Anyway, I was more interested in the genesis of our academic and enterpreunerial success. What societal factors underlie that, beyond those already discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhondy Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 The All England Badminton Competition organizers would blanch at the description of their event being described as the "England Cup", Lurker.:P Do you remember who he beat, BTW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted June 14, 2007 Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 Anyway, I was more interested in the genesis of our academic and enterpreunerial success. What societal factors underlie that, beyond those already discussed. Dhonds man..... u let out a blanket statement which needled everyone on this board and u r jus non-chalantly moving on to the other part of the topic... anywys, the reason for our academic and entrepreunial success is becaause we are among the most intelligent of races, if not THE MOST.... and our population drives us to entrepreneurial success, where u have to take risks and do something different to stand out and survive.... u got to read about murthy's or ambani's stories to see some similarity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 How's Syed Modi a great, Lurker? Anyway, I was more interested in the genesis of our academic and enterpreunerial success. What societal factors underlie that, beyond those already discussed. That would be hard for me to quantify now Dhondy. Syed Modi was a class player and I remember him getting the better of Prakash Padukone on more than one occassion, specially towards the end of his life(he was murdered as you would be quite aware). I would have to pick my memory here for a second but I definitely remember him reaching to quarters in Asian Games. He had a bit of mental issues on highest level but the player has class. Coming to Prakash now Dhondy I think he beat Lim Swi King, dont quote me on it though. Padukone, Morten Frost and King were sort of the top trio then and I am pretty sure Prakash did not play Frost in the finals. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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