What a visit to Pakistan revealed...

[gator]

On May 26, a few Indians and four Pakistanis gathered at Mumbai's MIG Club to commemorate the first anniversary of the Peace Process initiative by the South Asian Free Media Association, or SAFMA. The initiative had the blessings of both governments and the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation, or SAARC. But the long shadow of recent events in Karachi fell on this effort and unlike last year, the guest list from Pakistan was very small. The initiative, launched with much hope and hype last year, seems to be meeting the same fate as many such initiatives. It is thus a good time to take a long hard look at the peace process and examine likely scenarios. On May 22 last year, a 33-member Pakistani delegation from Karachi arrived in Mumbai on a four-day visit. On the first day, the delegates kept mostly to themselves and seemed reluctant to even strike up conversations with Indians. But from the second day, as they got used to freedom in India, all of them, with an odd exception, behaved as if they had just entered a ' de-compression' chamber, doing all the things that are prohibited in a strict Islamic society, from eating ham and bacon at breakfast to guzzling down whisky. The dominant impressions of the interaction were:

• Lack of understanding about Indian issues, systems and processes;
• Nostalgia for bygones;
• 'Me too' as a constant theme to show that Pakistan is at par with India;
• Hypocrisy on religious taboos;
• General dislike of the state of affairs in Pakistan including the domination of the military;
• Sense of envy about India and Indians due to the freedoms we enjoy and progress we have made.

A Indian delegation, led by Murlidhar Chaini, Chairman, Reliance Industries [Get Quote] and President, Maharashtra Economic Development Council (a kind of state Planning Commission) paid a return trip to Karachi from June 10 to 14, 2006. Other members of the delegation included Dr Ravi Bapat, former vice-chancellor, Medical University, Dr Nikhil Datar, a leading gynaecologist, Dr Sunil Deshmukh of Bombay University, Chandrashekhar Nene, VP, Kingfisher Airlines, Sulaxana Mahajan, an architect and three journalists from local newspapers. Some delegates were accompanied by their spouses. Loksatta Editor Kumar Ketkar of SAFMA was the coordinator of the delegation. I was part of the delegation as a representative of an NGO involved with the peace process. Six other persons, mainly artistes from various fields (like poet Javed Akhtar, singer Faiyyaz) were denied visas by the Pakistani high commission in Delhi. All were Indian Muslims. Conclusions from that visit:

• There is tremendous dislike of the army dominance while Musharraf is not unpopular.
• There is a sense of insecurity in city of Karachi; even by 7 pm the city streets are deserted.
• India is an object of envy for its freedom, independent judiciary, election commission and economic and educational progress.
• The civil elite is conscious of the fact that in a globalised world only peace and cooperation with India can lift their country out of its present morass.
• The army does not want the people to come in contact with Indian Muslims as that will give a lie to their propaganda.
• There is great reluctance to permit free flow of information media and people. The people to people contact is sought to be only confined to the elite, and not the masses.
• In Karachi the Muttahida Quami Movement's dominance has ended the sway of the Jaamat-e-Islami, Masood Azhar and anti-India jihadi forces who seem to have shifted to Punjab. In the recent terrorists incidents in India there are hardly any links to Karachi-based groups.
• Karachi is dominated by Pashtuns, with a common refrain being that there are more Pathans in Karachi than in Peshawar.

The overall situation in Karachi, and by proxy, Pakistan, is unstable and any trigger like the capture/killing of Al Qaeda [Images] chieftain Osama bin Laden or Musharraf extending his presidency could trigger events which could threaten the continuance of military rule. The ongoing violence in Waziristan, Baluchistan and Afghanistan only adds to the volatility. http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jun/12guest.htm

[Dhondy]

That's a pretty biased and one sided account, isn't it? Can any Pakistani confirm that this is how they think in Karachi?

[kumble_rocks]

From reading this article , I gather that average Joe in Pakistan is not a religious fanatic and is just like us . So , I wonder how and why, Islamic radicalism has a such a stronghold in Pakistan including parts of Karachi. Probably the sample from NW Pakistan may be give us a totally different picture than the present subject.

[gator]

From reading this article ' date=' I gather that average Joe in Pakistan is not a religious fanatic and is just like us . So , I wonder how and why, Islamic radicalism has a such a stronghold in Pakistan including parts of Karachi. Probably the sample from NW Pakistan may be give us a totally different picture than the present subject.[/quote'] u got it only partially right... the average joes are a minor percent of the population there.... otherwise, u wouldnt have brimming madarasas with long waitin lists for enrollment....

[gator]

That's a pretty biased and one sided account, isn't it? Can any Pakistani confirm that this is how they think in Karachi?

can someone drop a 1000 dollars in my lap??? not wishing to be sarcastic there, Doc..... but the likelihood of both are the same...

[Lurker]

From reading this article ' date=' I gather that average Joe in Pakistan is not a religious fanatic and is just like us . [/quote'] KR, An easy way to judge a country from the outside is by its media. As an example USA is often tagged as Right winger Christian Evangelical state but most Americans are anything but. And if you check their media - Hollywood or most cable channels(not counting right wing news media like FOX) - you get to realize that USA is a very liberal country. In the same vein you can check Pakistan's media to get some idea. Now obviously Pakistan doesn't have any Hollywood and even its TV industry sucks. But how about their music industry? Any Hindi/Urdu music fan today respects Pakistan pop groups. Specially the young crowds. When people suggest today how Bollywood have influenced Pakistan, they completely fail to realize how Pakistan has influenced Bollywood. The current music coming out is very much influenced by Pakistani rock music. Indeed some of the popular tunes today are either straight-up lifts or inspired by Pakistani songs and Pakistani artists/groups are doing quite well in India as well. Pakistan is certainly lot more conservative than India, no two doubts about it but it is also not as conservative as some of us think..or would like to think. xxxx

[Gambit]

Read that earlier today. Does come across as a slightly biased account from the Colonel but I don't think it's entirely off the mark. However, no Pakistani that I have ever met has ever expressed envy of anything related to India publicly.

[gator]

However, no Pakistani that I have ever met has ever expressed envy of anything related to India publicly.

on a sunday, try navigation to the passion website.... u will see everyone dissing bolly movies and claiming they never watch it.... again the same fools in some other thread will be discussing scenes from the latest blockbuster....

[King]

To be fair our Pakistani posters acknowledged they are Bollywood fans.

[gator]

To be fair our Pakistani posters acknowledged they are Bollywood fans.

i am being fair... but i can only talk for the majority, Ravi... u wanna take 2 guys in here as the sample size.... i prefer an entire forum there as a sample size....

[King]

I don't visit PP Gator, I wouldn't know.

[kablooee87]

Being a Pakistani (from Karachi, and a regular visitor of the "passion" website), I feel obliged to respond. I don't quite have the time to fully organize my thoughts but I will post some responses to things said in the thread. The article is, as others have pointed how, biased. Is "Muslim culture" prevalent in Karachi? Of course, it is in an Islamic nation. That being said, the whole concept of being forced to act certain ways is not something you see there. Plenty of people go out and socialize and do everything you would see happening in any other country (some of which I disapprove of but, hey, it's not my business). The situation in Karachi currently is quite volatile. I think the timing of this visit is quite unfortunate as Pakistan is going through a time where we could see some major positive changes coming out of this whole judicial crisis. The assertion that after 7 pm, the streets are deserted is preposterous. Go to clifton beach (in the heart of Karachi) on a late weeknight and you will see the place packed. The social scene is not lacking at all in my opinion. As for the little jibe at "the passion website," I maintain that the anti-India bias there is far less than the anti-Pakistan bias here. Of course, my opinion is hardly unbiased but neither is any of yours. I myself can't stand Bollywood movies, it's just not my cup of tea. But many Pakistanis love them. My brother watches them regularly, as does my mom. A visit to Karachi will clearly show how incredibly popular they are in Pakistan. The chances of getting into a conversation about the latest Bollywood movies in Karachi are very good. A large percentage of Pakistani love Bollywood movies and have no problem admitting it. Finally, I just want to say that I make no qualms about my feelings towards India. There is a certain level of animosity there. That fact bugs me, that I would have that feeling towards a whole nation like that, but I live with it and have come to a point where I can truthfully say I have no problem with Indians (I have met enough nice ones) as individuals. The fact that the feeling is generally mutual on both sides only perpetuates the feeling it. PS: Again, I know the post really jumps all over the place but I don't have time to really organize my thoughts at the moment.

[CC1981]

I maintain that the anti-India bias there is far less than the anti-Pakistan bias here. Of

Well we have our muslim/pak haters like Bheem & D_R but seriously, the # of these types of morons are far higher in PP. Ofcourse, you should be wary of any site that is predominantly NRI-based. NRIs are a different breed, having being influenced by the western 'crusader' mentality, especially the 'North American' NRI batch...where apart from a few here and there, most are seriously 'crusader mentality'. A lot of fundie-hindu stuff originates in the North Americas and the NRI community here...just like a lot of fundie muslim stuff originates from power-brokers in Riyadh. And I am saying this as a North American -NRI/PIO so dont come after me with 'shuddh desi' stuff. There is actually far less animosity amongst pakistanis and indians in the subcontinent than in the messageboards. Pakistan's problem is the MMA types, India's problem is the ShivSena/VHP/RSS types. Dono eek hi kheton ki mooli hain...ek hai haraa..ek hai saffron.

[kablooee87]

Well we have our muslim/pak haters like Bheem & D_R but seriously' date=' [b']the # of these types of morons are far higher in PP. Ofcourse, you should be wary of any site that is predominantly NRI-based. NRIs are a different breed, having being influenced by the western 'crusader' mentality, especially the 'North American' NRI batch...where apart from a few here and there, most are seriously 'crusader mentality'. A lot of fundie-hindu stuff originates in the North Americas and the NRI community here...just like a lot of fundie muslim stuff originates from power-brokers in Riyadh. And I am saying this as a North American -NRI/PIO so dont come after me with 'shuddh desi' stuff. There is actually far less animosity amongst pakistanis and indians in the subcontinent than in the messageboards. Pakistan's problem is the MMA types, India's problem is the ShivSena/VHP/RSS types. Dono eek hi kheton ki mooli hain...ek hai haraa..ek hai saffron.

Like I said earlier, I totally disagree with the statement in bold and am not surprised at all that you think that way. Both our opinions are biased (in terms of nationality and in terms of which board we frequent most) so I'm not going to get into that. The last point you made is absolutely true. The animosity is greatly exaggerated on message boards. I said earlier that I felt a level of animosity towards India but none towards Indians. That sort of thing comes out on message boards, where you talk about ideas and opinions, more so than people and their characteristics.

[King]

I have to say I didn't have much clue about Islam, Pakistan and the rest before the internet over took the print media. Print media did not really stick to the same topic on a daily basis. With the advent of internet people can voice their opinions pretty strongly. Also when there are none around you and if you have to express something you end up with no holds barrier. I don't trust all that is written about Islam, Pakistan and the rest is true. There is still some truth to it though. I quite despise anything Islam is terrorism as it is made out to be after 9/11 everywhere. Not a day goes by without a debate about Islam. Check out youtube, google videos, cricket forums, social forums, news print websites et al pretty much everything is now anti islam. You could feel the drift the minute you check out some sites. We have a lot of free time on hand to dwell into these topics particularly the IT and the desk job types. As for once that work outside the desk say an electrician or a plumber, they are far less educated on these matters and to be honest they are better off that way considering the hate that is prevalent now among different sects. When I visit India though things seem very different. None even talks about these issues simply because they are bloody busy. They get on with their daily chores and none of their discussions are centered on religion or Pakistan. They talk about cricket, food and the rest. I have to agree with CC Indians living outside India talk more about Pakistan than the ones living in India. That is my first hand opinion. Of course my opinion comes from the fact I have not one mate that belongs to Islam or hails from the Islamic countries. Now in a situation such as that it is pretty hard to form an opinion about some sect.

[kablooee87]

I'll be the first to admit there are definitely aspects of Islamic culture which are just wrong. I firmly believe that all of them are a result of people's ignorance. I've heard stories about some villages where no one knows how to read or write and therefore cannot read the Quran at all. As a result, they all just go on what they're told by the elder or whoever. That type of thing is disturbing to here. Just a small little example but you get my point. You're definitely right about the part about this sort of conversation being less frequent in India or Pakistan. BTW, I'm gonna try and avoid getting into a religious debate here because both our opinions are too well formed for it to be in any way constructive.

[kablooee87]

Kabloee , Difference between US and PP ... One of the mods from PP came here few months ago made some anti-India anti-Hindu comments and when me and Dada started answering his posts he quietly made an exit without even trying to substantiate his claims. But those posts still exist. The same has happened to couple of other PP Posters.... point is if I go onto your board and even make factually correct statements about your country/religion .... I can guarantee you they will not last for more than 5 minutes. That right there is the difference between us. You dont have to take my word... take a test drive yourselves. Me DR Anakin and some others take a lot of flak for our views .... but we back up what we say with facts .... something that never happens when it comes to our turn in asking some pointed questions.

can I get an example? There are plenty of posts on PP (not MY board, btw) that criticize Pakistan. Pakistani's a very good at that. Frankly, I have respect for Indians who come to PP, and Pakistani's that come here. It's always going to be a losing battle and I'm simply not a good enough debater to cope with it. That's why I post very little here. I come here to see Indian views on events that involved India (ie the team selection today etc etc), other than that, I try to stay out of it.

[King]

I'll be the first to admit there are definitely aspects of Islamic culture which are just wrong. I firmly believe that all of them are a result of people's ignorance. I've heard stories about some villages where no one knows how to read or write and therefore cannot read the Quran at all. As a result, they all just go on what they're told by the elder or whoever. That type of thing is disturbing to here. Just a small little example but you get my point. You're definitely right about the part about this sort of conversation being less frequent in India or Pakistan. BTW, I'm gonna try and avoid getting into a religious debate here because both our opinions are too well formed for it to be in any way constructive.

I don't see anything wrong in discussing political issues, they are part and parcel of our lives. As long as the discussions are civil and thoughtful its fine I think. I don't like discussions just for the sake of bashing anything/anyone in particular. That is of course my opinion. I will be honest to admit there are haters of Islam/Pakistan here as there are on PP about India/Hinduism. There is no way that is going to change :tounge_smile: IMO no one knows what they want out of these religious debates though. It is just a topic of discussion that's about it.

[Lurker]

Okay guys can we avoid turning this into a PP vs ICF please? Thanks!

on a sunday' date=' try navigation to the passion website.... u will see everyone dissing bolly movies and claiming they never watch it.... again the same fools in some other thread will be discussing scenes from the latest blockbuster....[/quote'] Gator, I know where you are coming from regarding websites belonging to nationalities spewing out venom against each other. As a few have mentioned prior that Internet has somehow bred more hatred that way than a genuine awareness. It is strange how in real life most of us claim to have "I do not hate Pakistanis, in fact I have many Pakistani friends"(substitute Pakistanis with Indians for the people of opposite side of the border) but on message boards it seems everyone loves to dislike everyone else. You mentioned Bollywood and you are quite correct that many Pakistanis dislike it. However truth be told the Pakistanis that dislike it are mostly NRI kind. This is no different than a lot of NRI themselves suggesting that they hate Bollywood with a passion. Ask yourself how many Indians from India have you met that speak of Bollywood in bad light, and then ask how many Indians that are born and bred in the West that you meet who consider Bollywood as cr@p. One thing which I admit you will see lot more on Pakisani websites is that of perhaps Indian nation/society as whole being dissed. I believe this stems from the fact that there is an effort on some level to show Pakistanis were different from Indians and thus justify the reason for partitions. I mean come on any which way you look at it India has done better than Pakistan in most arenas so how do you suspect people react on the other side of the border when life is worse in the "promised land" as compared to further east. Also it is much easier to find an Indian defending Muslim culture than a Pakistani defending Hindu culture. Reasons are rather simple. Indian culture has been enriched by Muslim culture and many Indians are not only happy about it but very fiercly proud of it. I am as proud of Urdu as I am of Hindi, thats the beauty of India. On the other hand I am not sure how many Pakistanis are proud of Hindu influence on their culture. xxxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

Yes apakistanis too are average Joe in fact any country has overwhelming number of average Joe.. But the point you people miss is that here is no absolute definiton of average Joe. Average Joe in India is not at the same scale as average Joe i Pakistan viz a viz religious-nuttism but they are average in their respectiev countries noetheless. I would say by indian standard average Joe of Pakistan will be a fanatic but they remain average joe there. Just keep in mind average is not melting pot it is strictly dependent on the ensemble we are discussing For instance in India Praveen Togadia is considered epitome of fanaticism but I has asked in past and will ask again find me even the most liberal joe across the border who expresses the accommodative sentiment like this person has done. PS: CC go study at this rate given the moorn u are u will hardly be able to finish even ur under-grad. Stop bsing. All said and done one thing is sure Pakistani elite has fed some crap to their average Joe and that's why this reluctance for letting indian muslim interact with the rank and file across the border. Why else would they deny VISA to persons like Javed Akhtar. I am not blaming them though because they need this **** and bull to justify their existance.