What a visit to Pakistan revealed...

[MundaPakistani]

What has this thread turned in to?:P:tounge_smile:

I responded to that... and IIRC you conveniently left out some major pieces of information in your response. On another occasion we decided to take these sensitive discussions offline and I sent you an email and PM to which there was no reply.

I answered everything in detail. So if you keep asking the same questions then i'll keep giving you the same answers. P.S As i have suggested before why don't you go ahead and visit mosques on Fridays..go to as many mosques as you want and listen to Khutbas and after that just sit down with an Islamic scholar and ask all the questions that you want to ask...do that and then we can discuss about what you learnt!

[CC1981]

go to as many mosques as you want and listen to Khutbas and after that just sit down with an Islamic scholar and ask all the questions that you want to ask...do that and then we can discuss about what you learnt

I lived in the midle east for 5 years, i went to mosques as well but i've NEVER found an Imam or Kazi who'd debate Islam objectively with me- such as Mohammed's psychology & influences, etc etc. Please find me one and i will be happy to take up your offer. Oh and so far, no Islamic scholar ( including my best buddy, who is a sunni syrian and a PhD in mathematics) can answer my following logical statement : You cannot have a perfect text without having a perfect language..and since Arabic is not a perfect language, by logic, the Koran cannot be perfect either.

[King]

S, don't get me wrong but if MP says it could be wrong and it doesn't concern him what are we going to achieve? I think Kaboole... confirmed Islam needs reforming.

[The Outsider]

On the success of Indians in academics, I would like to say that our politicians have done some good things contrary to the usual nonsense they dish out. The formation of IITs, IIMs, IISc, Indian Mathematical Institute, Indian Statistical Institute, Indian Institute of Astrophysics, Raman Research Institute, BARC etc. ensured that we as a nation has at least one place of education/research in the country where the government would make efforts to fund the program to the level where they can achieve self sustenance. It was a major policy decision taken in the first few years of our independence. One area which they ignored was humanities and perhaps that is the reason why we don't find too many top notch Indian Political Scientists, Sociologists etc. Even, India's recent success in IT has come on the back of Rajiv Gandhi's introduction and vision of computers. A moron, he might have been, in other policy matters but its unfair to deny him the credit for India's software/IT boom. Pakistan, on the contrary, did not have any concentrated higher education policy. Where both countries suffer equally is primary education. It is pitiful in India. We have 5-10 year old kids working in all kinds of cottage industries and vocations rather than studying. This is serving to increase the gap between the rich and poor as well. Its an area which needs to be addressed with urgency.

[CC1981]

We have 5-10 year old kids working in all kinds of cottage industries and vocations rather than studying. This is serving to increase the gap between the rich and poor as well. Its an area which needs to be addressed with urgency.

As the Indian govt. found out the hard way, it is a much more complicated problem than it seems- simply ordering kids to school or making child labour illegal will not solve the problem but rather, make it worse. People forget that most children who are in child labour jobs work out of necessity- personal & familial. If child labour is made illegal, that kid doesn't end up in school because the bare-bone budget family just lost one of its paycheques ( the kid's). As a result, the kid is gonna try to fake his/her age to work or work illegally anyways. People arn't gonna go to school until their basic needs (ie, food,clothing & house) are met. In today's climate, making child-labour illegal in India is actually far more harmful than benificial.

[varun]

People arn't gonna go to school until their basic needs (ie, food,clothing & house) are met.

I'd disagree. I'm not sure if this is specific to India or not, but I've seen parents not eating 3 meals a day just to put their kids through school. There is a general concept of "padh likh ke bada aadmi banega" which, though ironically met with a healthy dose of skepticism among the educated elite, is still looked upon as a motto among the less fortunate parents in India. It's this pervasive hope and optimism in the education system that is finally reaping benefits for the country.

[CC1981]

I'm not sure if this is specific to India or not, but I've seen parents not eating 3 meals a day just to put their kids through school.

This happens but the reason it is inapplicable to child labour situation are these: 1. most children in child-labour are critical labour income children- ie, their family faces starvation if they stop working and in many cases, the children themselves are equal breadwinners as their parents. This 'bhooka pet for children's khaatir' is not applicable when the family is on a barebone diet itself...and it is not the same as 'skipping a meal or two here and there'..it is literally a question of running a family with 20-25% of the income gone, when all income combined is barely enough to feed the family. 2. In child-labour situations, most have siblings who are also working...even if it was possible to somehow put one kid through school, parents don't want to play favourites and 'pick' which one gets to go to school and which one gets to remain illiterate. 3. Many children themselves prefer to be uneducated than face the idea of a starving parent. Besides, the situation played out like i said- children kept working when child labour was banned- either by faking their age or illegally anyways. This shows that the issue isnt legality of child labour, the issue is one of poverty. Until India has some sort of welfare program for the impoverished, child labour is a necessity to those families...and making it illegal doesnt put children in school- it just makes their lives harder for they have to work anyways but now working too is more inconvinient than before.

[Guest dada_rocks]

I lived in the midle east for 5 years' date=' i went to mosques as well but i've NEVER found an Imam or Kazi who'd debate Islam objectively with me- such as Mohammed's psychology & influences, etc etc.[b'] Please find me one and i will be happy to take up your offer. Oh and so far, no Islamic scholar ( including my best buddy, who is a sunni syrian and a PhD in mathematics) can answer my following logical statement : You cannot have a perfect text without having a perfect language..and since Arabic is not a perfect language, by logic, the Koran cannot be perfect either.

Good luck with that.. Ali sina became apostate for that very reason noone was willing to answer his legitimate questions...

[The Outsider]

I never advocated making child labour illegal is going to solve the primary education problem of India, but getting rid of child labour will solve the primary education problem. It needs to be done on a lot of different levels. Something which can have a strong impact is setting up vocational/educational centers where in addition to being taught how to weave they are also taught how to read. That ways the parents will see the benefits of having more skilled labour in terms of more money and children will have no option but to study.

[Lurker]

On the success of Indians in academics' date=' I would like to say that our politicians have done some good things contrary to the usual nonsense they dish out. [b']The formation of IITs, IIMs, IISc, Indian Mathematical Institute, Indian Statistical Institute, Indian Institute of Astrophysics, Raman Research Institute, BARC etc. ensured that we as a nation has at least one place of education/research in the country where the government would make efforts to fund the program to the level where they can achieve self sustenance.

Most of those institutes, if not all, can be traced to vision of one man - Jawaharlal Nehru. Modern Indians who leave no stones unturned to chastise Nehru every which way should perhaps learn how much ahead of time he was when it came to Academics. If India is doing good in Academics I would give the most credit to Nehru. xx

[Guest dada_rocks]

I'd disagree. I'm not sure if this is specific to India or not' date=' but I've seen parents not eating 3 meals a day just to put their kids through school. There is a general concept of "padh likh ke bada aadmi banega" which, though ironically met with a healthy dose of skepticism among the educated elite, is still looked upon as a motto among the less fortunate parents in India. It's this pervasive hope and optimism in the education system that is finally reaping benefits for the country.[/quote'] You are right but this happens, where parents are sure that if they skip one meal or make do with torn kurta ( I can vouch for the later) he/she will be able to fund his/her wards studies.. Skipping meal for those who hardly manage to put food on the table working together is not going to fund any kind of studies in India....Educated elite kid (well hawa mein rahte hain ye)want well-rounded development whatever that means. You would see this kind in engg schools indulging in everything other than the subject they enrolled for. With advent of IT industry and MBA education in big way has fanned this all-rounded development at the cost of discipline one enrolled for further. So much so people now question the syllabus and want engg schools to become virtually MBA entrance preperatory centres. Any engg school today boasting of 300%/400% campus selection will have to thank IT industry. One might have studied chemical engg/ mech engg/ electrical engg/ mettlurgy/civil but one ends up doing "getchar putchar" when employed. I say why not change with time and reduce number of seats in other discipline and add them to CS. This way. Child labour is complex phenomena: At one end are people who see it as necessary evil hence here to stay tilll we have some big paradigm shift in socio-econmic field. While at other end are NGOs who see red in everything related to child working. Heck as per their definition I too was a child labour. Till tenth while I was in village everyday I used to help my father for an hour in morning and evening with his grass-cutting work. I was never forced but it just didn't feel right me sitting with books while he slogging on grass-cutting machine. He without a fail used to chime everyday "aap jake parhiye ye mera kaam hai".:haha: There are scores of kids who help their parents out while keeping their studies on at the same time. Hardcore NGOs see red even in this. Mind you child-prostitution has also increased with advent of child-labour laws. Before barring kids from working we must make an arrangement for their meal at least. The concept of two meals at school is a great step in this direction but in Bihar I am not so sure about other states teachers are expected to cook. There is no cooking staff in most of schools and this has turned schools into dhaba for kids education has taken back-seat. Sthg needs to be done to address that. We are becoming successful in dragging kids to schools but we must take the next step of educating them and for this teachers need to teach not cook.

[The Outsider]

There are scores of kids who help their parents out while keeping their studies on at the same time. Hardcore NGOs see red even in this.

That is nothing closed to child labour. Any NGO worth its salt doesn't bicker as long the child is enrolled in school and attends it regularly.

The concept of two meals at school is a great step in this direction but in Bihar I am not so sure about other states teachers are expected to cook.

Don't know about Bihar, but in UP it turned out to be a disaster with crores embezzled. Just a random thought, maybe our lack of progress in humanities is linked to not having top humanity institutes in the country and never giving those areas of study priority at par with Math/Science/Medicine/Engineering.

Most of those institutes, if not all, can be traced to vision of one man - Jawaharlal Nehru.

Completely agree, Lurker. I might not agree with a lot Nehru's policies but if one man deserves the credit for independent India's strong academic institutes it is him. Similarly, if one man deserves credit for India's IT growth and dominance it is Rajiv Gandhi. Very few of our politicians have vision. In that respect, I think Vajpayee's vision of a solid infrastructure will also help India reap benefits twenty years down the line, if all the money for the projects does not end up in our politician's tummies.

[CC1981]

Swetabh, your idea of vocational schools is an intreaguing thought..my attention has not gone in this direction much but it occurs to me that along with humanities, indian education system is seriously lacking in trade & vocational schools like in north americas.

Any NGO worth its salt doesn't bicker as long the child is enrolled in school and attends it regularly.

This is false...several NGOs operate under the premise that it is unethical and therefore illegal for children to work.Many of the NGO's premise is that it is expolitation/child-abuse/child-cruelty etc. to ask children to work. Lack of education is just a tool to highlight their position.

[The Outsider]

This is false...several NGOs operate under the premise that it is unethical and therefore illegal for children to work.

That's why I said any NGO worth its salt. Any NGO which thinks that helping out needy parents after you are done with school and homework falls under the purview of child labour is fanatical and not worth its salt.

[The Outsider]

Swetabh, your idea of vocational schools is an intreaguing thought..my attention has not gone in this direction much but it occurs to me that along with humanities, indian education system is seriously lacking in trade & vocational schools like in north americas.

I have been involved with Eklavya, a NGO operating primarily in tribal belts of MP, Chhatisgarh, and Jharkhand for more than a decade now and they have had moderate success implementing this idea. Though recently, ever since the grwoth of extremism in those areas a lot has been put on the backburner and the organization has seen many of its leading workers leave for other NGOs working in safer areas.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Actually they do complain in Eaatern UP in carpet industry many kids help their parents during evening and many of them do go to school but these days those parents are being hounded by NGOs..

[THX_1138]

as an indian observing india from outside, i think we are a country too obsessed with the lesser of all our neighbors. we are too busy celebrating our success, giving one the impression that we were desperate for such success, and it arrived upon us rather unexpectedly, when in fact the ingredients (massive work force, education, purchasing power and cheap manufacturing costs) were all there for ages but never brought together efficiently. instead of recognizing our tryst with destiny we are behaving like hooligans who were waiting all this while to rub our success into the faces of our western neighbors. what is our infatuation with pakistan? i say frak pakistan... its a country held together by an oppressive regime that is desperate for success yet hacks away at its own feet with an axe... lets stop comparing with them. for that fact with china either. both are flawed regimes. compare ourselves with the united states, especially the freedom and rights enjoyed there. lets aim more at resolving the various frak ups our grandparents left us... i.e. kashmir, northeast, jharkhand, chatisgargh etc. guys lets do our part... study hard if youre a student, and get a good job; work hard if you are already working; indulge in charity if you have the money... frak pakistan... hell its doing that to itself. concentrate on your own shyt.

[Gaurav]

Hmmmm grrrrr!!!! I am the boss!

[CC1981]

what is our infatuation with pakistan?

I can understand India's 'infatuation' with Pakistan more than i can the other way round- those lands used to be ours and as far as i am concerned, Afghanistan & Pakistan are integral parts of our culture/history. So yes, i can understand the attachment.

[gorah_pindu]

- Lack of understanding about Indian issues, systems and processes; - Nostalgia for bygones; - 'Me too' as a constant theme to show that Pakistan is at par with India; - Hypocrisy on religious taboos; - General dislike of the state of affairs in Pakistan including the domination of the military; - Sense of envy about India and Indians due to the freedoms we enjoy and progress we have made.

Thats pretty much the impression one gets from talking to Pakistani citizens online too. Especially annoying is the inability of people who havent lived in a liberal democracy to know what it really means - i.e. they think the words of some wingnut politician must reflect government policy like it does in a dictatorship. Its always a bad sign when a country defines itself by another country - and many Pakistanis define Pakistan by being 'not Indian, but as good as India' - thus tying their existence to India, instead of forging their own path.