It was good while it lasted - special thanks to IPL

[Yoda-esque]

I get the impression that the other side is trying to dismiss his contribution as captain - e.g.' date=' by claiming that XYZ as captain would have obtained the same result. It is like dismissing the leadership of any one of Border, Taylor or Waugh just because the other two were just as successful.[/quote'] +1

[Guest Gunner]

I get the impression that the other side is trying to dismiss his contribution as captain - e.g.' date=' by claiming that XYZ as captain would have obtained the same result. It is like dismissing the leadership of any one of Border, Taylor or Waugh just because the other two were just as successful.[/quote'] On the contrary, I am stating that Border and Taylor were significant leading up to Waugh. The statement "Dhoni took India to the top" is simply unacceptable since it dismisses 10 years of hardwork of a whole bunch of other people. I think most people on this board believe in "Intelligent Design" rather than evolution.

[The Outsider]

I get the impression that the other side is trying to dismiss his contribution as captain - e.g.' date=' by claiming that XYZ as captain would have obtained the same result. It is like dismissing the leadership of any one of Border, Taylor or Waugh just because the other two were just as successful.[/quote'] Not sure how you are getting that impression when people are claiming "Dhoni won the WC", "Dhoni drew in SA", "Dhoni won against Australia"

[Midfielder]

Not sure how you are getting that impression when people are claiming "Dhoni won the WC"' date=' "Dhoni drew in SA", "Dhoni won against Australia" [/quote'] He has definitely contributed to the sucess but then it is a team sport and everyone has a role. I for one think there should be a different Captain for every match. Radical but might work.I can swear Buchanan said that too three years after I said it.

[Bumper]

I completely agree with the OP. But Shwetabh's rant on Dhoni is, I am afraid to say, shockingly superficial! Dhoni is by far the best Indian wicket keeping all rounder EVER! Roll his captaincy into the equation he can walk into any all time Indian XI. Not to mention he is India's great cappo ever. So all the adulation he enjoys is well justified. Let me get to Dhoni's mediocrity one issue at a time: 1) Mediocre keeper ? So Dhoni is a mediocre wicket keeper, eh ? Except for may be Prasanna Jayawardene (and to some extent Mark Boucher), who is clearly ahead of Dhoni in terms of keeping skills against both pacers and spinners ? If you are looking for a Sadanand Viswanath or a Syed Kirmani, look else where. There aren't too many pure wickies playing the game today. Batting is almost the #1 qualification for a keeper in today's cricket. Going by the current wicket keeping standards he is an adequate keeper. 2) Medicore batting technique ? So what if Dhoni's technique is suspect ? Wasn't Sanjay Manjeraker a superior player in terms of technique ? What did he achieve in his career ? Even Badrinath has a better technique. If technique mattered more than mental fortitude Badri would be an established test batsman today. Technique cannot teach a player how to be man enough to face and respond to crisis. That has to come from within. And Dhoni is blessed with plenty of that (quality) Granted, any other cricketer with Dhoni's batting technique would have perished long time ago. But Dhoni is that blue eyed boy the king picked off the street, to be the next emperor. The guy has maximised every ounce of talent he's got, combined with his sheer street smartness to rule Indian cricket today. You gotta commend him for that. If it matters, his batting avg of 38 is right up there with Brad Haddin's and Matt Prior's (who is perhaps the best wicket keeper batsman going around today). Dhoni may not be a reliable run scorer in all conditions. But he is a crisis man, kinda like Mark Boucher. When the team needs runs, he somehow scores them. He is not just a slogger who comes in & cashes in on an established batting platform. He has pulled a rescue act in several instances. Faislabad-2006, Durban-2006 (when he hung around only to watch his team mates fold up like a tent), Lords-2007, Delhi-2007 vs Pak, Ahmedabad-2009 vs SL are all examples. I am puzzled how anyone can rank Dhoni 6th/7th out of the 9 current test keepers (Kamran Akmal, Brendon Mccullum, Chris Baugh, Mark Boucher, Matt Prior, Prasanna Jayawardene, Brad Haddin, and that Bangla keeper). ? 3) Will Dhoni last against Akram & Donald ? O Rly ? Which one of the current wickies are going to last against these guys ? Even Lara struggled against Donald, Akram, Waqar and the likes. Dhoni's job is to be a useful lower order batsman who bats according to the situation. He does that quite competently. 4) Had Dhoni failed Yuvi, Raina et al would have seen us through in the WC finals ? This is utter tosh! Was SRT in form prior to the 2003/2011 world cup finals ? Was Yuvi in form prior to the semis against Pakistan ? Form means jack shyte. The pressure of the occassion trumps everything. Many of our batsmen have a notoriously poor track record in finals. And this is the mother of all finals - the WC finals. Had SRT played Dhoni's innings in that game, that would have made it to all the all-time charts. Such is the importance of that innings. You should rewind/replay all ourfinals highlight tapes in the past 10 years, to convince yourself. Dhoni is like the Obama of Indian cricket. He has broken all traditions. Within five years, the guy has transformed himself from a slogger to India's most successful leader cum wicket keeping allrounder in both forms of the game. All the adulation he enjoys in India is quite justified!

[Bumper]

Speaking of playing Akram & Donald, Professor is quick to dismiss Dhoni's credentials against these guys. But did someone ask him about Monsieur Bradman (who Shwetabh has never seen before) ? Ofcourse, Bradman would have comfortably averaged in the 60s, against these bowlers. Must be true, because some mathematician said so ?:--D

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[achilles]

I completely agree with the OP. But Shwetabh's rant on Dhoni is, I am afraid to say, shockingly superficial! Dhoni is by far the best Indian wicket keeping all rounder EVER! Roll his captaincy into the equation he can walk into any all time Indian XI. Not to mention he is India's great cappo ever. So all the adulation he enjoys is well justified. Let me get to Dhoni's mediocrity one issue at a time: 1) Mediocre keeper ? So Dhoni is a mediocre wicket keeper, eh ? Except for may be Prasanna Jayawardene (and to some extent Mark Boucher), who is clearly ahead of Dhoni in terms of keeping skills against both pacers and spinners ? If you are looking for a Sadanand Viswanath or a Syed Kirmani, look else where. There aren't too many pure wickies playing the game today. Batting is almost the #1 qualification for a keeper in today's cricket. Going by the current wicket keeping standards he is an adequate keeper. 2) Medicore batting technique ? So what if Dhoni's technique is suspect ? Wasn't Sanjay Manjeraker a superior player in terms of technique ? What did he achieve in his career ? Even Badrinath has a better technique. If technique mattered more than mental fortitude Badri would be an established test batsman today. Technique cannot teach a player how to be man enough to face and respond to crisis. That has to come from within. And Dhoni is blessed with plenty of that (quality) Granted, any other cricketer with Dhoni's batting technique would have perished long time ago. But Dhoni is that blue eyed boy the king picked off the street, to be the next emperor. The guy has maximised every ounce of talent he's got, combined with his sheer street smartness to rule Indian cricket today. You gotta commend him for that. If it matters, his batting avg of 38 is right up there with Brad Haddin's and Matt Prior's (who is perhaps the best wicket keeper batsman going around today). Dhoni may not be a reliable run scorer in all conditions. But he is a crisis man, kinda like Mark Boucher. When the team needs runs, he somehow scores them. He is not just a slogger who comes in & cashes in on an established batting platform. He has pulled a rescue act in several instances. Faislabad-2006, Durban-2006 (when he hung around only to watch his team mates fold up like a tent), Lords-2007, Delhi-2007 vs Pak, Ahmedabad-2009 vs SL are all examples. I am puzzled how anyone can rank Dhoni 6th/7th out of the 9 current test keepers (Kamran Akmal, Brendon Mccullum, Chris Baugh, Mark Boucher, Matt Prior, Prasanna Jayawardene, Brad Haddin, and that Bangla keeper). ? 3) Will Dhoni last against Akram & Donald ? O Rly ? Which one of the current wickies are going to last against these guys ? Even Lara struggled against Donald, Akram, Waqar and the likes. Dhoni's job is to be a useful lower order batsman who bats according to the situation. He does that quite competently. 4) Had Dhoni failed Yuvi, Raina et al would have seen us through in the WC finals ? This is utter tosh! Was SRT in form prior to the 2003/2011 world cup finals ? Was Yuvi in form prior to the semis against Pakistan ? Form means jack shyte. The pressure of the occassion trumps everything. Many of our batsmen have a notoriously poor track record in finals. And this is the mother of all finals - the WC finals. Had SRT played Dhoni's innings in that game, that would have made it to all the all-time charts. Such is the importance of that innings. You should rewind/replay all ourfinals highlight tapes in the past 10 years, to convince yourself. Dhoni is like the Obama of Indian cricket. He has broken all traditions. Within five years, the guy has transformed himself from a slogger to India's most successful leader cum wicket keeping allrounder in both forms of the game. All the adulation he enjoys in India is quite justified!

Very well written.

[Chandan]

Sorry to disappoint you Bumper, but Dhoni's keeping as well as batting has been really really bad since world cup. In West Indies too dropped a few crucial catches and couldn't score a run. In fact throughout the tour, one got an impression that that Dhoni didn't want to be there on the field. Even his after match statement, just one line, spilled the secret, how eager he was to go back to the hotel. And now here.. there have been so many chances that have gone a begging. Dhoni just can't stand upto PK knowing perfectly well that even if nicked, those won't carry to him,. Then he moves Rahul Dravid wide at first slip but won't dive to take the edge... why? If all this is not mediocrity then what is? And it is not as if he is exhausted. He had a good break from the ODIs in WI. If he is a crisis man, why could he not stick a little longer with Dravid in the 1st inning? Gambhir and Raina's failure can be understood as it is their first tour here. But Dhoni is on his second trip. He could have stepped up where team was down with viral affected Tendulkar, 3 rookie batsmen in England Mukund Gambhir and Raina. What happened? Will he stand up even in 2nd inning?

[King Tendulkar]

Yes' date=' I too think that Shwetabh is being harsh on Dhoni, but doesn't take away from the fact that KT is wrong on most things, including his championing of Bhajji and Kohli.[/quote'] Exactly!!! Superb arrogance:two_thumbs_up: The posts are rubbish, its all gone down hill, not like it was in the good old days when you posted more often blah blah

[King Tendulkar]

Speaking of playing Akram & Donald' date=' Professor is quick to dismiss Dhoni's credentials against these guys. But did someone ask him about Monsieur Bradman (who Shwetabh has never seen before) ? Ofcourse, Bradman would have comfortably averaged in the 60s, against these bowlers. Must be true, because some mathematician said so ?:--D[/quote']:hysterical:

[pinkfreud]

I haven't read the thread in its entirety, but both the anti-Dhoni and pro-Dhoni crowd have raised some pretty good points. For one, I strongly agree with the OP. The IPL has totally *****ed up the priorities of most of our guys. I hate the bugger, but our mainstays should take a leaf out of Michael Clarke's book and focus on what really matters instead of hankering to the T20 crowd. This, coming from yours truly, who enjoys the wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am version of cricket. On his part, Dhoni has been a good captain. Sure, he could do better- he's not as aggressive as we want him to be, but whatever there is to him, it seems to have worked till now. Let's hope he doesn't screw things up further. We have this tendency to nitpick on every guy out there- even Sachin has a dismal record as captain, Ganguly was criticised at times when he was at the helm, and so was Dravid... well, the same goes for Dhoni. He's mighty annoying at times with his decisions, but hey, if we could hire a perfect bloody cyborg as a captain who can do no wrong, I'm sure we'd be there already, eh? That said, Dhoni is pretty hyped imo. His Test performances are below par for someone of his (popular) standing, his wicketkeeping has been shoddy of late, and he gets all too defensive, particularly when the spinners are in action. That said, he comes across as a good guy to have in the team. Some people are suggesting that we'd be better off without him- I don't think so. And for all those attributing our rise to #1 in Tests to Dhoni- kindly recognise the contributions Ganguly, Dravid, Kumble, and Laxman have made in Team India getting to that coveted spot. Dhoni or no Dhoni, we would have never been the best Test team had it not been for this quartet.

[Guest Gunner]

I haven't read the thread in its entirety, but both the anti-Dhoni and pro-Dhoni crowd have raised some pretty good points. For one, I strongly agree with the OP. The IPL has totally *****ed up the priorities of most of our guys. I hate the bugger, but our mainstays should take a leaf out of Michael Clarke's book and focus on what really matters instead of hankering to the T20 crowd. This, coming from yours truly, who enjoys the wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am version of cricket.

I stopped reading right there. Seriously? :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

[pinkfreud]

I stopped reading right there.

Figures, because your post says it all. To make things simpler and bring things down to an elementary level, let me spell it out for you: Clarke chose to forgo the Big Bash tourney to concentrate on Test cricket.

Seriously?

Si, seriously.

[Holysmoke]

I completely agree with the OP. But Shwetabh's rant on Dhoni is, I am afraid to say, shockingly superficial! Dhoni is by far the best Indian wicket keeping all rounder EVER! Roll his captaincy into the equation he can walk into any all time Indian XI. Not to mention he is India's great cappo ever. So all the adulation he enjoys is well justified. Let me get to Dhoni's mediocrity one issue at a time: 1) Mediocre keeper ? So Dhoni is a mediocre wicket keeper, eh ? Except for may be Prasanna Jayawardene (and to some extent Mark Boucher), who is clearly ahead of Dhoni in terms of keeping skills against both pacers and spinners ? If you are looking for a Sadanand Viswanath or a Syed Kirmani, look else where. There aren't too many pure wickies playing the game today. Batting is almost the #1 qualification for a keeper in today's cricket. Going by the current wicket keeping standards he is an adequate keeper. 2) Medicore batting technique ? So what if Dhoni's technique is suspect ? Wasn't Sanjay Manjeraker a superior player in terms of technique ? What did he achieve in his career ? Even Badrinath has a better technique. If technique mattered more than mental fortitude Badri would be an established test batsman today. Technique cannot teach a player how to be man enough to face and respond to crisis. That has to come from within. And Dhoni is blessed with plenty of that (quality) Granted, any other cricketer with Dhoni's batting technique would have perished long time ago. But Dhoni is that blue eyed boy the king picked off the street, to be the next emperor. The guy has maximised every ounce of talent he's got, combined with his sheer street smartness to rule Indian cricket today. You gotta commend him for that. If it matters, his batting avg of 38 is right up there with Brad Haddin's and Matt Prior's (who is perhaps the best wicket keeper batsman going around today). Dhoni may not be a reliable run scorer in all conditions. But he is a crisis man, kinda like Mark Boucher. When the team needs runs, he somehow scores them. He is not just a slogger who comes in & cashes in on an established batting platform. He has pulled a rescue act in several instances. Faislabad-2006, Durban-2006 (when he hung around only to watch his team mates fold up like a tent), Lords-2007, Delhi-2007 vs Pak, Ahmedabad-2009 vs SL are all examples. I am puzzled how anyone can rank Dhoni 6th/7th out of the 9 current test keepers (Kamran Akmal, Brendon Mccullum, Chris Baugh, Mark Boucher, Matt Prior, Prasanna Jayawardene, Brad Haddin, and that Bangla keeper). ? 3) Will Dhoni last against Akram & Donald ? O Rly ? Which one of the current wickies are going to last against these guys ? Even Lara struggled against Donald, Akram, Waqar and the likes. Dhoni's job is to be a useful lower order batsman who bats according to the situation. He does that quite competently. 4) Had Dhoni failed Yuvi, Raina et al would have seen us through in the WC finals ? This is utter tosh! Was SRT in form prior to the 2003/2011 world cup finals ? Was Yuvi in form prior to the semis against Pakistan ? Form means jack shyte. The pressure of the occassion trumps everything. Many of our batsmen have a notoriously poor track record in finals. And this is the mother of all finals - the WC finals. Had SRT played Dhoni's innings in that game, that would have made it to all the all-time charts. Such is the importance of that innings. You should rewind/replay all ourfinals highlight tapes in the past 10 years, to convince yourself. Dhoni is like the Obama of Indian cricket. He has broken all traditions. Within five years, the guy has transformed himself from a slogger to India's most successful leader cum wicket keeping allrounder in both forms of the game. All the adulation he enjoys in India is quite justified!

Thank you for infusing some sense in this thread.

[Brainfade]

On the contrary' date=' I am stating that Border and Taylor were significant leading up to Waugh. The statement "Dhoni took India to the top" is simply unacceptable since it dismisses 10 years of hardwork of a whole bunch of other people. I think most people on this board believe in "Intelligent Design" rather than evolution.[/quote'] (1) I see the point of your first sentence. You have to understand, however, that the captain is heaped with disproportionate praise for success, and cops disproportionate blame for failure. Both "Dhoni took India to the top" and "Dhoni ruined India" are exaggerations. It is human nature. What folks really mean is "India reached the top under Dhoni's captaincy," and "Greg Chappell ruined India." (2) I really do hope Intelligent Design has contributed to the team's success; where processes are deliberately put in place for maximizing success. If we are depending on random changes somehow coming together resulting in a well-adapted creature, we are in real trouble.

[Chandan]

Dhoni may not be a reliable run scorer in all conditions. But he is a crisis man' date=' kinda like Mark Boucher. When the team needs runs, he somehow scores them. He is not just a slogger who comes in & cashes in on an established batting platform. He has pulled a rescue act in several instances![/quote'] Sorry but the crisis man once again deserted the ship in an irresponsible way, as he has been doing in test matches since such a long time. If the team needed an inning of substance from Dhoni, it was in this match where three of the players were down with injury. But no. Prior hit a century and Dhoni couldn't even make 20 runs.

[Bumper]

Sorry to disappoint you Bumper, but Dhoni's keeping as well as batting has been really really bad since world cup. In West Indies too dropped a few crucial catches and couldn't score a run. In fact throughout the tour, one got an impression that that Dhoni didn't want to be there on the field. Even his after match statement, just one line, spilled the secret, how eager he was to go back to the hotel.

We are not discussing seasonal performances here. We are discussing Dhoni's career. Unfortunately many of us fans have short memories, we start writing obituaries based on the most recent test match or series. Every player goes through form slumps. Dhoni has not skipped any games like others, so at some point his workload is going to take its toll on his performances. But in the long run, he is just fine as a keeper.

And now here.. there have been so many chances that have gone a begging. Dhoni just can't stand upto PK knowing perfectly well that even if nicked, those won't carry to him,. Then he moves Rahul Dravid wide at first slip but won't dive to take the edge... why?

PK swings the ball like crazy. I don't think many keepers can stand up to him in these conditions. Like i said, for every one off miss, there are some brilliant catches & stumpings Dhoni has effected. He is not a Kamran Akmal for Christ sake. Give him a break!

And it is not as if he is exhausted. He had a good break from the ODIs in WI.

Good break ? Are you kidding me ? Those two weeks were barely enough to keep him off the hospital. He along with Suresh Raina plays the most cricket in a calendar year.

If he is a crisis man, why could he not stick a little longer with Dravid in the 1st inning? Gambhir and Raina's failure can be understood as it is their first tour here. But Dhoni is on his second trip. He could have stepped up where team was down with viral affected Tendulkar, 3 rookie batsmen in England Mukund Gambhir and Raina. What happened? Will he stand up even in 2nd inning?

If you are talking about this test, he's had a forgettable one. You could ask pretty much the same qns of any of our top order bat. Look, Dhoni is prolly never going to a batting star in test matches. For most of his career he is/will be a useful batsman & will occasionally produce a brilliant knock. But he is not a dud like Shwetabh makes him out to be. Would he have lasted 20 deliveries against Akram, Waqar & Saqlain ? I certainly think he would have. He certainly did against the likes of Brett Lee, Shoaib Akhtar, Dale Steyn, Morkel, Muralidaran et al who weren't exactly easy to negotiate! Soeaking of technique, what technique does Suresh Raina have ? Yet another example of how mental fortitude trumps technique at the international level.

[yoda]

The guy who has played the most IPL is playing the best knock on a 5th day pitch in this test. Yes, thanks IPL. :finger:

[King Tendulkar]

The guy who has played the most IPL is playing the best knock on a 5th day pitch in this test. Yes, thanks IPL. :finger:

This IPL effect is all very confusing.:--D