Murali vs. Warne

[Lurker]

A little day in the day perhaps but for whatever it is worth I would like to say that I have never been a fan of Murali. Large number of wickets, stats and all the good stuff yes but at the end of the day he bowls with a suspect action and thats that, The reason why his action, or lack of it, is such a big issue(for me) is simple. Do this simple experiment at home. Try to deliver a bowl without any run-up, in effect a "throw" ball with off-spin action. I would say 9/10 people will get a good off-spin going. Now try to do with full action and see how small a spin you generate, if you do. Suspect action works great for off-spin than any other stream and Murali has,quite unfairly, gained a LOT from that, Also when people say Donald, Imran chucked etc they just make statements for the heck of it. Imran was famous for his in-dipper. There is no way you can in-dip a ball with your wrist cocked up and bent elbows. Go ahead and try it and see what I mean. Maybe they chucked their bouncers or a fast one but every other deliveries? I dont think so. xxx

[gator]

Lurks... this guy has exploited a small hole in the cricket rule book and come out smelling like an As*hole....

[Predator_05]

What percent of Murali's wickets are from the much debated doosra? Any stats out there?

I don't know the answer to that question, but i do know that before he discovered the doosra in '98 or thereabouts - he was just another average, run-of-the-mill type spinner who didn't bother teams that much. When SL toured India in '98, he was averaging in the 30's.

[CC1981]

Large number of wickets, stats and all the good stuff yes but at the end of the day he bowls with a suspect action and thats that,

So does your hero McGrath and thats that. So now what ?

Suspect action works great for off-spin than any other stream and Murali has,quite unfairly, gained a LOT from that

Total hogwash. Suspect action works great for pacers actually..breaking the elbow generates more pace.

Also when people say Donald, Imran chucked etc they just make statements for the heck of it. Imran was famous for his in-dipper. There is no way you can in-dip a ball with your wrist cocked up and bent elbows.

People who say that Donald, Imran etc. chucked are talking facts about extension of the elbow. It is a FACT tht Murali's extension and McGrath's extension are nearly identical. Murali gets th spin he does because his wrists are unusually flexible.when you can flip your hand back and make your knuckles touch the back of your forearm and keep your wrist touching the forearm while you rotate it in a perfect circle, you will match Murali in his amazing wrist power. its a known fact that cocking your wrist will create the illusion of chucking. Murali with his hyper-flexible wrists and a permanent bend in the elbow gives off the strongest illusion of chucking...when in reality, Murli and McGrath's actions are almost identical in degrees of flexion.

[Donny]

"Murli and McGrath's actions are almost identical in degrees of flexion." Actually mate, not even vaguely similar. Forget identical.

[CC1981]

"Murli and McGrath's actions are almost identical in degrees of flexion." Actually mate, not even vaguely similar. Forget identical.

Donny- 2 dimensional pictures prove nothing. There are different-perspective real-time pictures of murali bowling- where from side on his arm is straight but front-on, it looks like he is chucking in the exact same instance of time. A crooked elbow proves nothing- for in cricket chucking is not (and never has been) defined as bowling with a bent elbow or a straight elbow- it has always been about FLEXING the elbow. Ie, straightening it or bending it more than what it was when the bowling arm goes into the final delivery-flinging action. So picture of a guy with elbow bent vs picture of a guy with straight elbow in one frame is a non-sequitur. Western Australia University (?) that did the biomechanic test on Murali and then surveyed the flexion of all participating bowlers in the 2002 ICC champion's trophy found that the ONLY TWO bowlers who had less than 10 degrees flexion were Ashley Giles & Ramnaresh Sarwan. McGrath's flexion IS around 10-11 degrees, Murali's is around 13-14 degrees. Given that the error range was +/-2 degrees, it means McGrath's flexion is anywhere between 8 and 13 degrees while Murali's is 11-16 degrees. The basis of ICC changing its rules is not to accomodate Murali- though it seems that way to the casual observers because ICC changed their rules in the middle of Murali-chucking-furore. But in reality, ICC changed its rules after the survey of degree of flexion amongst ALL participating bowlers in 2002 ICC champions Trophy tournament found that only TWO (and one is a part-timer dibbly-dobbly bowler) bowlers bowled consistently with a flexion of < 10 degrees. Infact, McGrath vs Murali is a clear-cut example of how optical illusions make us fundamentally prejudiced to think McGrath's action is 'super-clean' while Murali's is 'tainted' when factually, both are flexing almost exactly the same amount on average. Ie, Murali got hauled up not because he was chucking while others wernt- others were chucking equally badly as murali. Murali got hauled up simply because his chucking is not as aesthetically pleasing as McGrath's chucking.

[gator]

donny.... give up man, the javelin thrower has some die-hard fans.... it is easy to play blind for them.... that pic jus raised my blood pressure by 50 points....

[CC1981]

donny.... give up man' date=' the javelin thrower has some die-hard fans.... it is easy to play blind for them.... that pic jus raised my blood pressure by 50 points....[/quote'] Well it seems that the 'javelin thrower' also has a lot of illiterate detractors for his action- apparently those illiterate ones never took grade-9 physics and learnt about optical illusions. :haha::haha: What should raise your blood-pressure even more is that it is FACTUALLY PROVEN that McGrath & Murali's flexion levels are nearly identical.

[gator]

u stick to science, i will stick to sports.... tht way, we talk about things we are good at...

[Guest dada_rocks]

"Murli and McGrath's actions are almost identical in degrees of flexion." Actually mate, not even vaguely similar. Forget identical.

quite sleek from the angle mcgrath picthure is taken it can't show flexion..... only point so far i have got is he can rotate his palm more with flexed arm and that is perfectly legal.. it remains to be proven it gives him any unfair advantage over others

[Guest dada_rocks]

donny.... give up man' date=' the javelin thrower has some die-hard fans.... it is easy to play blind for them.... that pic jus raised my blood pressure by 50 points....[/quote'] gator i see ur point but that pic is misleading if u really want to see mcgrath arm bend line of picturing has to be rotated by 90 degree angle.. same angle doesn't do justice to all bowlers given some are front-arm some are side-arm action bowlers.. I knwo i know we have had detailed discussion on this and ultimately we came to the conclusion since he has bent arm he can flex his palm part more but this thing other than being legal gives him unfari advantage is not proven . we resort to leap of logic there..

[Guest dada_rocks]

I don't know the answer to that question' date=' but i do know that before he discovered the doosra in '98 or thereabouts - he was just another average, run-of-the-mill type spinner who didn't bother teams that much. When SL toured India in '98, he was averaging in the 30's.[/quote'] bhaiya mere warne was nothign special in the beginning either spinners mature with age

[Predator_05]

bhaiya mere warne was nothign special in the beginning either spinners mature with age

Kya baat kar rahe ho saab. Warne averaged between 23-24 throughout most of the 90's, whereas Chuttiah averaged 30 'til '98 and that average started falling only when he discovered the doosra

[gator]

DR bro.... obviously, i dont have scientific proof.... but i or for that matter anyone can try this even at home with a tennis ball and see the difference... heck, i can turn a tennis ball on hard-wood floor with my arm bent without more than 15 degree flexion, but not an inch with a straighter arm with the same 15 degree flexion.... now, coming to Mcgrath, i am not a great fan of his, but still he doesnt pisz me off so much, jus cos i know from personal experience, that yeah, a 10-15 degree of straightening will get u around 2-4 kph in speed more... yeah, not fair, but human bodies cannot have 0 degree flexion.... and he is not a fast bowler either.... but then again, Akhtar and Lee are big facking chuckers.... But again, they still dont raise my blood pressure as much, cos they are not dusting the records of great bowlers like Hadlee, Kapil who worked their heart and bodies off to legally earn their records like a true champion....

[CC1981]

ut i or for that matter anyone can try this even at home with a tennis ball and see the difference...

Anyone will see the difference because not 'anyone' has hyper-flexible wrists like Murali does. Not 'anyone' can simply bend back their wrist till the 1st knuckle joints touch the forearm. Murali can. So until you get that kind of flexibility in your wrists, you will NEVER be able to replicate Murali's action without breaking the elbow in the normal range (which is similar to McGrath's flexion).

But again, they still dont raise my blood pressure as much, cos they are not dusting the records of great bowlers like Hadlee, Kapil who worked their heart and bodies off to legally earn their records like a true champion...

Kapil and Hadlee too had around 10 degrees flexions in their elbow. ( plus/minus 2 degrees).

[Donny]

Sandro, please give me a link to these 'tests'. They sound like very rubbery figures.

[gator]

Anyone will see the difference because not 'anyone' has hyper-flexible wrists like Murali does. Not 'anyone' can simply bend back their wrist till the 1st knuckle joints touch the forearm. Murali can. .So until you get that kind of flexibility in your wrists, you will NEVER be able to replicate Murali's action without breaking the elbow in the normal range (which is similar to McGrath's flexion).

plain geek talk.... in sports terms, it is clear, u can get more motion in ur wrist with ur arm bent.... bottom line...

[CC1981]

plain geek talk.... in sports terms, it is clear, u can get more motion in ur wrist with ur arm bent.... bottom line...

Err..NO. My wrist bending back to touch my foremarm (or however far it can go) has very little to do with my arm being straight or bent at the elbow. Murali isnt a fast bowler, so the whole 'cant **** your wrists without damaging your under-arm' doesnt apply in his case(or any spinner's case). Donny- mostly what i am saying here, its from recollection of debates/articles i read a few years ago when this was actually big news. I will have to look up the articles again..hopefully i will find them.

[Gambit]

A little day in the day perhaps but for whatever it is worth I would like to say that I have never been a fan of Murali. Large number of wickets, stats and all the good stuff yes but at the end of the day he bowls with a suspect action and thats that, The reason why his action, or lack of it, is such a big issue(for me) is simple. Do this simple experiment at home. Try to deliver a bowl without any run-up, in effect a "throw" ball with off-spin action. I would say 9/10 people will get a good off-spin going. Now try to do with full action and see how small a spin you generate, if you do. Suspect action works great for off-spin than any other stream and Murali has,quite unfairly, gained a LOT from that, Also when people say Donald, Imran chucked etc they just make statements for the heck of it. Imran was famous for his in-dipper. There is no way you can in-dip a ball with your wrist cocked up and bent elbows. Go ahead and try it and see what I mean. Maybe they chucked their bouncers or a fast one but every other deliveries? I dont think so. xxx

Completely agree. MM should always have an asterisk next to his career records (like Pak should next to their world cup win :hysterical:). He should have never ever played as much cricket as he has. Hair and Emerson got it spot on when they called him. His bowling is no lovable freak show. He is no exception to 'textbook' bowling. He is, plain and simple, a blot on this beautiful game.

[The Outsider]

The same ridiculous generalisation goes on and on. Will you please get it through your heads: Australians have many and varied opinions about many subjects.

If you read my posts carefully you will see I am completely with you on that. But it is not possible to ignore the fact that a sizeable portion of the Aussie crowd has given Murali a raw deal. I don't go around justifying the lunatics at Calcutta who lit the stadium on fire in '96, why are you so compelled to justify the lunatics who have constantly harassed a legend. And I don't have any qualms in admitting that the lunatics in '96 Calcutta were a sizeable portion of the crowd, why do you have to say they were insignificant in Aus when all of us have heard and seen the "No Ball" chantings.