The Outsider Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 The problem with your logic is, that you are comparing rank 100 of one setup with rank 10000 of other setup, without taking into account how these setups actually differ - here IIT setup w r t setup of MIT/Princeton. It is very much possible that one setups 100 rank is not as good as other setups 10000 rank - something which you are suggesting. My whole point was that if you increase the number of seats at IIT's without increasing infrastructure/facilities than quality is bound to go down. My second point is that any setup -however good that is- would always produce better quality if it takes top 100 student instead of taking top 10,000 students. But do we want quality to be that scarce, that is different point altogether. 1. I agree and that's the point I was making - that at present the limiting factor is not the number of people admitted to IITs, but the quality of education the newer IITs are imparting. If you were to put these lower ranked IITians in Princeton or Harvard, they would on average do as well if not better than the top ranked IITians. 2. Of course, and I agree with that as well. If hypothetically, IIT was selecting 10 students a year they would in general do better than the average Harvard or Princeton graduate. But that's getting into a facetious argument where the entire emphasis is on the quality of the selected students rather than the quality of the institute. And if I may add, a self defeating argument because it just implies that IIT education as such had little role to play in their success, rather their success was a function of the fact that the selection process itself was made so stringent.
youngindia Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Everyone has different mix of 'basic' skills. On a given parameter/skill some people are 'naturally' better than others - is a fact and in no way it means that abc is inferior/superior than xyz - as a whole. . if the parameters are of enormous strategic significance,it does translate into superiority as a whole. for example, a dominant tennis player is certain to have a top notch serve or forehand. the best backhands(edberg, gasuet,kuerten and nalbandian) never translated into long time domination. i am convinced that the best people in a given field have atleast significant mastery of vision or strategy related to that field. if you don't have good strategic understanding of field, then it is most likely a field where you don't ave the best aptitude or among the top 1-10% so one need to score very highly or be exceptional on parameters of strategic significance to be superior as a whole. As for success in general life - if you are good people manager/leader/businessman - you can always hire 100s of IITians and be considered more successful Its more important that you need to be competent in strategy, tactics and vision you are unlikely to be a big leader like jobs or gates unless you have proved you can grasp strategically important matters that many others don't. like on the research done by XEROX PARC and they themselves were inequipped to take advantage of the work they have done..or on the empty promise Gates made to IBM on the PC OS after Gary Kildall messed up. the IITian's or MITian's won't work for anyone just like that. on the subject of IIT, overall one can be expected to find a better environment in IIT and people in better universities get better trained and have better access to many things. but the quality of IITian's and non IITIANS varies quite greatly. In other words, given sufficient time and motivation, an IITian will perform better than a non-IItian, in a job/assignment that emphasizes on quantitative skills. this either assumes that the best aptitude for quantitive skills is found in IITians or that IIT course work makes them far more better trained than those elsewhere? While i can see that people may have got through JEE with atleast "very good" level suitability to science and math subjects, some other people with excellent or good aptitude to those subjects may have missed out for various reasons.the biggest argument i can give is there are late developers.IIT JEE is conducted when you are usually 16-18. but if you are saying its easier to find a better quant talent in IIT, that would be most likely. This "an IITian will perform better than a non-IItian, in a job/assignment that emphasizes on quantitative skills." is not most likely in my view.maybe in parts
Vijay.Sharma Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 i am convinced that the best people in a given field have atleast significant mastery of vision or strategy related to that field. if you don't have good strategic understanding of field' date=' then it is most likely a field where you don't ave the best aptitude or among the top 1-10%[/quote']The history of inventions (game changing patents) shows that, that is not the case. Usually the game changing patents come from individuals who have very little to do with the particular industry/engg area. When you say the "best in the field", I think we can make a case that they are the best in the field because they are different from the rest in their way of thinking. And this 'way of thinking' is not taught in any institution
Vijay.Sharma Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 No hope for engineering grads from schools other than IITs to do better later in career. Why? Because' date=' they aren't different, they aspire to be a poor copy of IITs, they blindly follow the leadership of IITs in structuring courses (but without the infrastructure) and have the same goals - get them absorbed in industry with little regard to their specialization.[/quote']I am sorry I didn't get your point at all. I am arguing that IITian/IIMer ain't greatly different from another Engineer/Mgmt fella once you get into real life. But I concede they stand a better chance of landing a good job the moment they are out of college coz of the hype associated with the institute. I totally agree that their talents are wasted if all those different Engg branches end up doing software. At least these days with the growth of real estate and construction some civil engineers and architects are making good their education. Hopefully we will have more such Engineers getting into core industries
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 No hope for engineering grads from schools other than IITs to do better later in career. Why? Because' date=' they aren't different, they aspire to be a poor copy of IITs, [b']they blindly follow the leadership of IITs in structuring courses (but without the infrastructure) and have the same goals - get them absorbed in industry with little regard to their specialization. :hysterical::hysterical: Leadership of IITs in structuring courses? Can you name one course in IIT whose structure is not aped from American universities?
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Could you understand the context in which I used leadership? In a narrow sense' date=' i.e., the rest of the engineering schools looking up to IITs for course structure and grading etc. It was NOT an [i']absolute statement about IITs being the authors of their course and pedagogy. It should have been obvious but I am sorry it needs to be explained to you. :hysterical::hysterical: And that is the reason why other Engineering school students don't do as well in general? Because they copy their course structure from an institute, which itself copies the course structure from somewhere else? I can only pity your logical deduction skills.
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 And we are back to the usual "norm" smilies' date=' put downs ... All hail the maibaap [/quote'] Friendly suggestion - get a life beyond worrying about my posting patterns.
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 If you think you can figure out the malaise afflicting Indian higher education via logical deductions then more power to you. I make no such claim. I can see how far your went with your mastery of logical deduction. Fermilab? Some tenured position at US university. Oh wait...there's a limit how far some local Punjab univ ka product can go, innit bro? Back to topic, if you think I said it is only because they copy then probably time for you to head for a decent language school? With a supplementary course in logical deductions? I await your next post with a volley of infantile smileys. So, extending your logic IIT grads can never do better than American university grads because IIT course structure is copied from American universities? I'll reserve the smilies for when you post your 'theory' about 'time doesn't move, but it's the background against which things move'.
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 I have and thanks for your concern . Just doing my bit to help others from ending up wasting considerable amounts of their time "debating" with your royal highness. Hope you dont mind :nervous: Yeah, I can see the kind of life you have when I make a post after a week or a few days and you are there making vishesh tippani on them within a few minutes. I really envy your life of stalking an online poster to comment on not even the content of his posts but their style.
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Uh, no. You'll not reserve that for my theories. You'll use them regardless to get your self esteem dose online. Probably in the next post. FWIW, that theory isn't mine, it's Sean Carroll's. He's a tenured professor at CalTech. Remind me, where are you tenured at? http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0410270 Can you tell me where he talks about 'time doesn't move'? Or in here : http://arxiv.org/abs/0811.3772 ? As for the rest of your post, it's too much garbage for me to bother with.
youngindia Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 The history of inventions (game changing patents) shows that' date=' that is not the case. Usually the game changing patents come from individuals who have very little to do with the particular industry/engg area.[/quote'] Huh? like? To come up with the patent/invention itself, they must have mastery with a particular field .However, the invention may have turned to be an excellent application in a different area.Often it takes years/ decades to to figure out utility of inventions- e.g super conductivity. Engg is not about invention but application to solve real world problems. for example there is this use of game programming for unravelling DNA strands.It does not mean the game programmers have become robert crick and watson . . Yes. but Creativity is based on a foundation of knowledge and experience.the foundation has to be there. when i say the best in the field , it means 1. they had the exceptional talent and aptitude to acquire skill levels higher than most. for example if a guy cannot handle or understand complex issues beyond a particular level, he will stay at that level. so one can say the saturation point for the exceptional people is much higher. 2. their skills have been refined to a exceptional world class level by years of experience, training and refinement at a high level. 3. their instincts for the field is natural and they often make excellent decisions. 4. they can handle complexity significantly better than others. 5. they are able to acquire an excellent strategic understanding of the field due to point 4 and 1. 6. they eventually as established players can come up with first rate work consistently. A "different way of thinking" allied to the above factors works well. Anyone can say they have a different approach. but you don't become einstein or newton just by being different for sake of it.
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Too sophisticated for the puny mind of a punjaabi univ grad? I understand. Caught lying about Sean Carroll having made a "time doesn't move" claim didn't go down well with you, it seems.
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Those two aren't the only paper he's authored or lecture he's given. Consider it your homework to find out where and why he said that about time and the context in which he said that. Mmmk? You're right. Those aren't all. These are all : http://xxx.lanl.gov/find/astro-ph/1/au:+carroll_sean/0/1/0/all/0/1 Let me know where he says "time doesn't move".
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Time doesn't move' date=' it's the background against which things move.[/quote']
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Uh' date=' why would I let you know? I'd eventually but I like how you think you have me cornered. Let's play a while, rage boy?[/quote'] Don't bother. There is nothing in Physics that I can learn from you.
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Took less than 15 minutes to go down to insults. From a moderator of a forum with a purported policy against abuses and insults. I didn't see that coming! The policy hasn't been a deterrent for you in the past.
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Aww' date=' rage boy, you see you couldn't learn physics anywhere! if you did you'd be citing your own papers, innit?[/quote'] If we ever happen to discuss neutrino clustering, ultra high energy cosmic rays, or cosmic perturbations I'll definitely refer you to my papers.
desi.boy Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 If we ever happen to discuss neutrino clustering' date=' ultra high energy cosmic rays, or cosmic perturbations I'll definitely refer you to my papers.[/quote'] do chaar apni field ke terms mention karke ladka hero ban gaya, apne high aptitude ka proof de diya. jokes apart, all tht people are asking you is to debate in a respectable manner, especially being a moderator of the forum., shouldn't be too much.
The Outsider Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Yes' date=' nothing wrong with the enforcer of a policy found in consistent violations of his own rules. It's all about the logical deductions from the punjabi university ka rage boy![/quote'] Nothing wrong with using abuses and insults against you because you have been guilty of the same in the past. Hope it's clear now?
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