Vijay.Sharma Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I think all players, even the not so good ones, will have impressive figures here. Because when one scores an ODI century, it means the team has almost guaranteed to score a decent total because a) 100 runs were scored b) there had to have been another batsman at the other end for the duration of that innings who contributed at least 75% more runs. It might be more worthwhile to see how many centuries in chasing targets there are, or even better % of team's total in wins.Please do it and let us know how many people have done it better than Sachin in your "chasing" thingy. Let's see what the facts are. I'll make a bet here - Sachin will be in the top 5 even if you use this criteria and keep the min qual as 5 cents in chases. And if you have the qual set at 10 cents then Sachin will top even that. Please feel free to prove me wrong.
Vijay.Sharma Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Otsider, should I take it that you have no intention to test your theory about Sachin's "international class" in Test cricket thingy? Please dont put me down, but if you feel you dont want to discuss about it then just let me know about it and I'll respect that
The Outsider Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I mean there is absolutely no comparison in ODI cricket to the Batting Buddha There is one - Viv Richards - the guy who ran out half a side in a World Cup final and scored a century in another World Cup final to trophy. I used to consider Tendulkar as the best ODI batsman even till his second failure in a World Cup final - in my analysis that counts for a lot. There is no all time great who has failed in two World Cup finals except Tendulkar (I don't consider Murali, because he won't make my ODI top 10 bowlers' list). In the tie breaker, Richards beats Tendulkar hands down and is the best ODI batsman ever in my books.
The Outsider Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Otsider, should I take it that you have no intention to test your theory about Sachin's "international class" in Test cricket thingy? I've already given you my criteria in this or some other thread - there is nothing that Tendulkar can do at home which will prove he is an international quality batsman because India already has lots of batsmen who can do similar things. The only way he can "prove me wrong" is by sticking around till our next tough away tours and scoring with a 55+ average there (something which he has done at these places, so I am not asking for anything extraordinary here).
Vijay.Sharma Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I've already given you my criteria in this or some other thread - there is nothing that Tendulkar can do at home which will prove he is an international quality batsman because India already has lots of batsmen who can do similar things. The only way he can "prove me wrong" is by sticking around till our next tough away tours and scoring with a 55+ average there (something which he has done at these places' date=' so I am not asking for anything extraordinary here).[/quote']Firstly, thank you for responding to me and respectfully at that. It is a very decent thing to do and something that is not very well practiced on this forum especially when it comees to Sachin Tendulkar. So :two_thumbs_up: Fair enough! I guess Sachin Tendulkar will end his career as a non-international class batsman in your eyes if he dunn play in SA, Eng, or Aus again. But in the same vein, I also asked you about some other players' international class status. I request you to let me know what your reading of their "international class" quality is right now. I think it is a fair question because everything is relative. It also gives you a chance that you are not being biased emotionally against Sachin's failure and that your viewpoint is strictly cricket related. The batsmen are - (I a interested in Tests only) Kevin Pieteresen Johnatahn Trott Ricky Pawning Michael Hussey Rahul Dravid Virat Kohli Mahela Jayawardene Kumar Sangakkara AB DeVilliers Thank You
Vijay.Sharma Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 There is one - Viv Richards - the guy who ran out half a side in a World Cup final and scored a century in another World Cup final to trophy. I used to consider Tendulkar as the best ODI batsman even till his second failure in a World Cup final - in my analysis that counts for a lot. There is no all time great who has failed in two World Cup finals except Tendulkar (I don't consider Murali, because he won't make my ODI top 10 bowlers' list). In the tie breaker, Richards beats Tendulkar hands down and is the best ODI batsman ever in my books.Fair enough, your criteria and you have a right to your opinion although I feel it is too small a sample size. And more than that that criteria disqualifies so many potential ODI ATGs because they never appeared in a WC final. I look at the whole career and do not place so much importance on one tournament's final game so much important. But I do consider performance in finals as an indicator and I think Sachin has done better than Viv when it comes to final games as a whole. Also I call Sachin the Batting Buddha because I haven't seen a better batsman in my whole cricketing experience (including videos of players who played before). But hey we can disagree and not get at each other's throats coz of it. After all a rainbow is more beautiful than a gray sky - the difference in opinions is what enriches our experience of life.
The Outsider Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 You've got to realize that I am not saying the Tendulkar has not been a batsman of international class for his career or something bizarre like that - he is not an international class batsman these days. And here is my definition of an international class batsman - someone who would make it to a World XI or a second Xi - Tendulkar won't in my books on current form. Since you bring up, Ponting, I would say that despite his run spree in his previous series he won't qualify for my criteria as well - not till he scores away from home against a good attack. Even Tendulkar is capable of a series like Ponting at home against a mediocre to poor attack. Regarding ATGs who never got a chance to appear in a World Cup final, obviously there is a different criteria to someone who did twice and failed twice, something no ATG has ever done.
Vijay.Sharma Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 You've got to realize that I am not saying the Tendulkar has not been a batsman of international class for his career or something bizarre like that - he is not an international class batsman these days. I am totally aware of that and that is why wherever possible I have made it a point to mention in brackets the word "current" to emphasize that. And here is my definition of an international class batsman - someone who would make it to a World XI or a second Xi - Tendulkar won't in my books on current form. Since you bring up' date=' Ponting, I would say that despite his run spree in his previous series he won't qualify for my criteria as well - not till he scores away from home against a good attack. Even Tendulkar is capable of a series like Ponting at home against a mediocre to poor attack.[/quote']Thanks for letting me know your qualification for international class - I think that clarifies quite a lot. But I have a question, if a max of 22 players at any time are to be called international class then don't you think there is something wrong with the concept of international cricket itself? OK, not all of the 99 players from the 9 Test playing countries are truly international class. But at least 50% of them shoul be? Coz if they are not then as a counter to your argument can I not say that those 22 players are essentially international class because they have bloated up their performance by playing against 77 less than international class players? Think about it Edit - Even the 22 players who get picked as the first and second teams of the years usually do not contain players who have played Away series - tough ones at that. Consider this years top 11 - lotsa English buggers - how many great performances they have had overseas?
The Outsider Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 ^ It's just semantics at this point - so I'll rephrase my sentence as Tendulkar won't make my current second World Xi if that make you happier?
Vijay.Sharma Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 ^ It's just semantics at this point - so I'll rephrase my sentence as Tendulkar won't make my current second World Xi if that make you happier?Actually it is not semantics. Lemme explain why - I gibe the benefit of doubt that your discarding of Sachin's class as less than international is on cricketing abilities. And after some probing you have been kind enough to share the criteria with me. However applying the same criteria to other cricketers I find that they are not necessarily in the top 22 players of the year either. Hence the disconnect. That is what is compelling me to opine that your reasons are emotional rather than rational. Now I could be wrong but honestly I haven't seen enough convincing arguments from your side (or even the attempt of it) to prove that your call is based on pure cricketing logic. Seriously, Shwetabh, how can you boil all this down to semantics. Forget 22 players, name 15 of them who will fit your criteria. Also, while you are at it, please do answer about the status of the other players than Ricky Pawning in one of my questions above.
asterix Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 One thing I'd give to Sachin that he was unfortunate enough that he didn't faced Indian bowling. That's already a disadvantage if you are trying to be International class.
Ultimate_Game Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 One thing I'd give to Sachin that he was unfortunate enough that he didn't faced Indian bowling. That's already a disadvantage if you are trying to be International class. Going by SRT's struggles against trundlers (e.g., Cronje) and cr@ppy bowlers (Paul Harris, Giles, Clarke, Lyon etc.) he may very well have struggled against Vinay Kumar and Jaddu :haha:
Lurker Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Kapil fan criticizes SRT : Completely genuine SRT fan criticizes Kapil (or any other cricketer) : oh why do these SRT fans have to bring down past greats to elevate SRT. Arre dukhi aatma, who here is a Kapil fan aside from me? Maybe a couple more. So who are these Kapil fans criticizing SRT? Dont be an Akram, lets call out some names please? Most likely you will end up with 3-4 people and the number of people who criticize SRT would be 10 times that number. So how does it equate?? Meri baat choro, I never complain on having a go at Kapil when someone is replying to ME. But how come any random reply about SRT's criticizm STARTS with an attack on Kapil Dev? Does it make sense to you, at all? xxx
Lurker Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 One thing I'd give to Sachin that he was unfortunate enough that he didn't faced Indian bowling. That's already a disadvantage if you are trying to be International class. On the other hand had he not played for India, who knows when he would have been kicked out....:giggle: Maybe 3 years back. But yeah had he faced Venkatesh Prasad, Dodda Ganesh & Debashish Mohanty he may have scored as many runs 3 years back too. So it all works out in the end you see:((
Vijay.Sharma Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 On the other hand had he not played for India, who knows when he would have been kicked out....:giggle: Maybe 3 years back. But yeah had he faced Venkatesh Prasad, Dodda Ganesh & Debashish Mohanty he may have scored as many runs 3 years back too. So it all works out in the end you see:((So sez the Marathi-hating Bihari. Your opinion when it comes to a Maharashtrian, especially Mumbaikar, batsman is equivalent to a Paki claiming all his ills are the doing of RAW-Mossad conspiracy. Seriously, get a life now Lurks. Enough of trashing Sachin. Don't fall to the levels of people like Rett, Srtsfanaticssuck, etc
SachDan Posted February 24, 2012 Author Posted February 24, 2012 So sez the Marathi-hating Bihari. Your opinion when it comes to a Maharashtrian, especially Mumbaikar, batsman is equivalent to a Paki claiming all his ills are the doing of RAW-Mossad conspiracy. Seriously, get a life now Lurks. Enough of trashing Sachin. Don't fall to the levels of people like Rett, Srtsfanaticssuck, etc well said sharma ji :hatsoff:
Guest BossBhai Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 -- Removed on request of the user --
Crookbond Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 So sez the Marathi-hating Bihari. Your opinion when it comes to a Maharashtrian, especially Mumbaikar, batsman is equivalent to a Paki claiming all his ills are the doing of RAW-Mossad conspiracy. Seriously, get a life now Lurks. Enough of trashing Sachin. Don't fall to the levels of people like Rett, Srtsfanaticssuck, etc :cantstop:
Lurker Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 So sez the Marathi-hating Bihari. Your opinion when it comes to a Maharashtrian, especially Mumbaikar, batsman is equivalent to a Paki claiming all his ills are the doing of RAW-Mossad conspiracy. Seriously, get a life now Lurks. Enough of trashing Sachin. Don't fall to the levels of people like Rett, Srtsfanaticssuck, etc Wow another Dr. Phil around here!! Another cheerleader in bed with Sachin, oops Marathi, bandwagon eh Sharmaji. Speaking of getting life, start a post-Sachin life your janta, it is right around the corner when budhao retires, or is fired...whichever comes first :--D
Late Cut Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Wow another Dr. Phil around here!! Another cheerleader in bed with Sachin' date=' oops Marathi, bandwagon eh Sharmaji. Speaking of getting life, start a post-Sachin life your janta, it is right around the corner when budhao retires, or is fired...whichever comes first :--D[/quote'] It's kind of like a comb over...wonder how many of you have one. :hysterical::hysterical:
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