Alchemist Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Its funny when people who dont know shyt about mental illness make fun of them or say they are being lazy or can never recover. I mean people really have no clue but everyone has an opinion regarding mental illness. Some of educated people I have met think once you get into depression then later or sooner you'll jump from a building. :--D DC...you in San Francisco ? stay away from Golden Gate Bridge. JK...but had to say it. :winky:
Desi Cartman Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 DC...you in San Francisco ? stay away from Golden Gate Bridge. JK...but had to say it. :winky: dude there are so many bridges here that its impossible to avoid using one everyday. BTW thanks for reminding me about the bridges
Alchemist Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 dude there are so many bridges here that its impossible to avoid using one everyday. BTW thanks for reminding me about the bridges Well, the golden gate bridge is the most sucide prone places in the world.
Mariyam Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 @ Vijay & F.B.M If the son dies a natural death won't the mother be heartbroken? So will she if her son is murdered. That is not an arguement. The reason ( I repeat yet again) that suicide is a crime is that the suicide-er is doing damage and is cognizant of the fact that he is doing damage to himself. the society and those who have a stake in his life- emotional, financial or otherwise. When a person dies a natural death, he isn't deliberately causing the damage. Answer this - Why must an individual, who is utterly destituted, miserable, dependent, negative-confidence, and a "bhoj" on society, continue to live his life just because his mother and children may "miss" him? What kinda heart do these mother and children have? Why would they wanna prolong the pain of their "loved one"? I'll quote Lurker here - hope. Are you trying to insinuate that all those who commit or attempt a suicide have no other options? Edit - Mariyam, in fact consider this case. A year or two ago I read about a horrific case in Germany(?). A guy had imprisoned his daughter for donkeys years in the basement of his house and raped her and begot children thru her. She did not see sunlight for like 15-20 years. She was chained all the while in her basement. Let's suppose she had access to a sharp enough knife. And before she got pregnant the first time, let's say she got the guts to kill herself. And she ended her life because she could not bare the daily rape by her father and being imprisoned in a hell hole. Did she commit a crime? Which "loved one" did she betray / disappoint? Her rapist father? (her mother was long dead) I await your answers to the above scenario and then you can tell me if "suicide is a crime" can be an absolute law Absolute law? I haven't introduced any such phrases. Law is always relative btw. This case is an outright exception. Point to ponder, if she had access to a sharp enough life, she would probably try and murder the rapist dad. And if she were in India and she attempted suicide and survived and the case came to court, I'm pretty sure she would be pardoned of all punishment. In fact, there was an NGO which took up the case of a farmer in Chandrapur zila, who attempted suicide with his entire family due to rising debts and years of living as a quasi bonded farmer ( though its illegal). I think he was pardoned too. But I'll have to check up. I had mentioned that in my 1st or 2nd post in this thread that those who faced perpetual slavery and attempted suicide *could be* forgiven. WE DON'T TAKE EXTREME INSTANCES AND FORMULATE LAWS.
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Frankly I couldnt care less about the crime and punishment in case of suicide attempt. After life has beaten down someone so bad that his soul is in tatters, to the extent that he decides to take his own life, does it then matter what society punishes him a bit more? Hardly. My stance is that people will have situations in life where they develop suicidal tendencies. And when they do, we as human beings have this responsibility to be human and understanding. This whole notion of freedom to die is what I am against. You made that line, so not sure how I took it out of context. But if we are both saying the same thing its all good then :winky:What line did I make?
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 @ Vijay & F.B.M So will she if her son is murdered. That is not an arguement. The reason ( I repeat yet again) that suicide is a crime is that the suicide-er is doing damage and is cognizant of the fact that he is doing damage to himself. the society and those who have a stake in his life- emotional, financial or otherwise. When a person dies a natural death, he isn't deliberately causing the damage.Again you are repeating the same thingy. I have already told you that I don't find that theory logical, rational, or even practical enough. So let us just agree to disagree. I'll quote Lurker here - hope. Are you trying to insinuate that all those who commit or attempt a suicide have no other options?As I have already replied to Lurks (which you didn't seem to take into consideration before invoking his quote), I haven't spoken about anything like that. Absolute law? I haven't introduced any such phrases. Law is always relative btw.You are kidding me right? If law was not absolute then why the bloody patti on the Law Goddess' eyes? What does that signify - dunn it not signify that a crime is a crime immaterial of the context behind it? If law was relative, my dear, our civilization would have been a much much beautiful experience than it is now. This case is an outright exception. Point to ponder' date=' if she had access to a sharp enough life, she would probably try and murder the rapist dad.[/quote']Ah the irony. So then would that become a crime if she murdered her rapist dad? You actually think this girl who has been under constant repression and chained and made to feel like a worthless piece of **** that is alive only to be raped, will suddenly gain the cognizance that she is supposed to have a life of her own and that her dad is abusing her, and therefore she must kill him? She would somehow get the energy and strength to overpower her dad and kill him. And what if she failed in the attempt? Can you imagine how much more miserable her dad would make her life?
Mariyam Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Again you are repeating the same thingy. I have already told you that I don't find that theory logical' date=' rational, or even practical enough. So let us just agree to disagree.[/quote'] That isn't my theory. That is the logic of most states in the world where suicide is a criminal offense. I was stating it here because someone, I forget whom, had asked me for an explanation on the 1st page of this thread. The blindfold represents unbiased objectivity, that justice can be meted out with out fear or favour and that law is equally applicable to everyone regardless of their identity. Don't mistake that for absolutism. Andha kanoon, doesn't mean that judgements are de-contextualized. That is an incorrect inference on your part. And its not even an Indian thing. The Brits (who passed it on to us) took it from the Greeks/Romans.
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 That isn't my theory. That is the logic of most states in the world where suicide is a criminal offense. I was stating it here because someone' date= I forget whom, had asked me for an explanation on the 1st page of this thread.That is just one tiny interpretation of it. The blind fold represents that a crime is a crime immaterial of who does it. And you will be sent to jail (or whatever) if you committed a crime. Here is where I am saying that suicide should not be considered a crime I am sorry the law is not relative. The law does not pardon people for committing a "crime" despite the fact that they were forced into it. I thought the judge would decide that and not you. In your book, you choose to take a lenient view. Will all judges do so? If they do, then would they take an equally lenient view if she committed suicide? Fair enough, it ain't your theory but a bogus theory any which way.
f.b.m Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Ok, I'm not one to write 300 pages of stuff mainly because I'm lazy. So here's my relatively brief reply The reason ( I repeat yet again) that suicide is a crime is that the suicide-er is doing damage and is cognizant of the fact that he is doing damage to himself. the society and those who have a stake in his life- emotional, financial or otherwise. I ask again, does this apply to everyone. If someone can cause 'emotional damage' by committing suicide, surely there can be people who cause a similar amount of damage to drive him to suicide to begin with. What punishment do they face? If someone owes their life to their family, then the family must owe a healthy life in return. Obligation cant be a one way street. Should there be jail sentences for people beating the economic productivity out of their children? Should there be jail sentences for people having kids despite knowing that they cant afford to give them a half decent childhood? The damage is atleast comparable to a loved one committing suicide. In the case of not being able to feed your kids, I'd say its even worse. I'm just taking your principle that people should be punished for knowingly causing emotional and financial damage to others. Law is always relative btw. Hm.. Do you think that ethics should always be relative? This case is an outright exception. What makes her an exception? Does someone who was sexually abused as a child always get pardoned? Does domestic violence get a pardon? Where do you draw the line?
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Beautifully said, f.b.m - If someone owes their life to their family, then the family must owe a healthy life in return. Obligation cant be a one way street.
Mariyam Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 That is just one tiny interpretation of it. The blind fold represents that a crime is a crime immaterial of who does it. And you will be sent to jail (or whatever) if you committed a crime. Here is where I am saying that suicide should not be considered a crime. Wrong. (part in bold) Way to oversimplify. A crime is a crime. However, A crime do-er may not be punished depending on the circumstances in which the crime was committed. I am sorry the law is not relative. The law does not pardon people for committing a "crime" despite the fact that they were forced into it. For the nth time, it is. You can keep repeating that isn't, but it will not change reality. All of a sudden, now you've started proclaiming that the Law de-contextualizes crimes. That is absolutely wrong. It is always case by case. YOU CAN HAVE A VIEW POINT ABOUT SUICIDES BEING ACCEPTABLE, BUT TO SAY THAT THE LAW IS CONTEXT INDEPENDENT IS PLAIN WRONG. Law doesn't pardon people? Haven't you heard of any leniency petitions? Mercy petitions? Pardons? Read a prominent case: KM Nanavati vs State of Maharashtra The final judgement, was taking into context the situation under which Mr.Nanavati murdered Ahuja, and keeping in mind his middle class sensibilities about honour and duty. Let me know if you want links to more cases. You use terms like 'law' 'forced' , 'crime' etc very loosely. I'm afraid these concepts are more nuanced than you seem to think. What do you mean by 'forced'? How do you decide who is 'forced' into a suicide? According to your understanding of law and human psyche, how many cases of suicides are 'forced'? I thought the judge would decide that and not you. In your book, you choose to take a lenient view. Will all judges do so? If they do, then would they take an equally lenient view if she committed suicide? Based on my understanding of law, my guess is that most judges would reach the same decision, keeping the context in mind. I already answered 2 posts back what I think would happen if she attempted suicide. In my opinion, the judges would pardon her then too. That is what I am trying to tell you - evolve. The notion that suicide is criminal must be done away with. You and I and society needs to evolve to a more understanding and humane existence than some stone age notion about suicide. Instead of evolving into a more humane society you want us to continue with the farce of judging suicide attempts? Where is all this coming from?? What have I said or done that isn't humane?? Giving people the right to take their lives is how you express your humanity? Mariyam, I am not sure why you are not able to "get it" that these examples are totally irrelevant. Maybe it has got to do with viewing all technically defined "crimes" as crimes and detaching yourself from trying to understand the human psyche and the humanness involved in those acts. Whatever it is but your continuous attempt at providing more and more irrelevant analogies is not taking us anywhere You fail to find the connect. If your arguement is that " suicide" is no business of the state and the person was "forced" into it, can't you extend this arguement to almost every thing. Should the govt. coerce parents to have their children vaccinated for non contagious diseases?
Singham Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Those who try to commit suicide must just try to rob a bank. If he gets caught he can shoot himself...:haha:
akshayxyz Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Not out of depression, but many times - when I am peaking over an edge/railing at a height - I get this temptation of jumping. As if some inner voice is calling me, come on try it. :)
Mariyam Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Great response!!! I ask again, does this apply to everyone. If someone can cause 'emotional damage' by committing suicide, surely there can be people who cause a similar amount of damage to drive him to suicide to begin with. What punishment do they face? There is a legal provision to punish people for 'Mental Cruelty' in India. If the suicide-er is being mentally tortured, he can ( at least on paper) seek legal help. Doing something that is illegal ( attempting suicide) is not the answer to mental cruelty, real or perceived. If someone owes their life to their family' date=' then the family [i']must owe a healthy life in return. Obligation cant be a one way street. Should there be jail sentences for people beating the economic productivity out of their children? Should there be jail sentences for people having kids despite knowing that they cant afford to give them a half decent childhood? The damage is atleast comparable to a loved one committing suicide. In the case of not being able to feed your kids, I'd say its even worse. I'm just taking your principle that people should be punished for knowingly causing emotional and financial damage to others. The link asks me to register. 'Owe' is a strong word. Lets use the word stakeholder. The family ( and society) are stake holders in your life. Lets not make this an 'individual liberty vs state control' debate. It simply isn't. Again, it is not my principle. Parental negligence is punishable, IIRC. Laws, differ state wise. But again enforcement is extremely difficult. ( As is the case for attempted suicides). Hm.. Do you think that ethics should always be relative? Absolutely. What makes her an exception? Does someone who was sexually abused as a child always get pardoned? Does domestic violence get a pardon? Where do you draw the line? Your references are from Australia and the UK. I do not know if someone who was sexually abused as a child always gets pardoned. But in India, the law is lenient towards women and if the accused was sexually abused as a child and the abuser was the one murdered, if I were a betting person, I'd bet on a pardon. Since you've highlighted domestic abuse, I'll share a famous case from the UK. I'm guessing you must be aware of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiranjit_Ahluwalia A case of domestic violence which in fact altered the definition of 'provocation' in cases of domestic abuse.
Mariyam Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 @ Vijay and F.B.M Thanks for the discussion. Me is going for a play now. Till laterzzzzzzz....
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 @ Vijay and F.B.M Thanks for the discussion. Me is going for a play now. Till laterzzzzzzz....I think it is better that way Play nice and enjoy yourself! Till later!
anotherhawkeye Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 It was an interesting discussion. Good job, both of you.
Singham Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Its funny when people who dont know shyt about mental illness make fun of them or say they are being lazy or can never recover. I mean people really have no clue but everyone has an opinion regarding mental illness. Some of educated people I have met think once you get into depression then later or sooner you'll jump from a building. :--D I read your posts dude,after reading it now am aware of what depression can do to a person. I feel happy for u dude. U r a nice guy. U deserve a good life.:two_thumbs_up:
anotherhawkeye Posted January 24, 2012 Posted January 24, 2012 Not out of depression' date=' but many times - when I am peaking over an edge/railing at a height - I get this temptation of jumping. As if some inner voice is calling me, come on try it. :)[/quote'] Hey, me too. But there's no voice in my head, that will be creepy :hehe:. I just wonder how easy it is to end life and wonder about the fragility of human life.
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