Dravid's captaincy.

[gator]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bumper If the middle order doesnt click, Dravid can wave his shirt, trousers & lungi, he wont look good. :hysterical::hysterical: I agree...bumps

as a leader, u r not there to look good..... which is wat Dravid is doing... but atleast, u dont have to bend over and expose ur hole...

[Ram]

i am not supporting Ganguly's as a captain now... did i??? infact' date=' i have praised More and Chappell, the main ones who booted him out.... why are u conveniently ignoring the fact, wen i rebuked ur theory about ranatunga and imran being the respective stars in runs and wickets....[/quote'] I thought i had replied to it. Maybe you missed it. Lemme say it again. Being a "star" doesnt just mean being the top wicket taker or run scorer. Both Imran and Ranatunga made CRUCIAL contribtions at various stages of the world cup, ( 92 & 99). Ganguly on the other hand , was a burden on his team , even when he was captain.

[Lurker]

No Lurks. It is unfortutanate you have judged Dravid by what you see on T.V. The man is all courage Lurks. Just browse through some of the most vital innings played in Indian history , under what circumstances they were played and you would find Dravid' name figure at the top.

His courageous knocks have come all happened sometime back. Dravid has let us down as a batsman(not to mention captain) in South Africa, World Cup and now England. After the WC debacle the only thing that would have gladdened my heart would be to see India trouncing England 3-0. Specially when Simon Jones, Harmisson, Flintoff are all out. But instead we are getting humiliated by Trimlett and Sidebottom and you want me to see how Dravid is all courage???

If ever i have seen an example of someone who has to the guts to fight it out , to put yourself on the line , and not be afraid to get oneself in the firing line for the team , it is Dravid. Not ganguly.

Never been in Ganguly camp. Dravid as a captain has been decent at best, dismal at worst. And I stand by that. xxx

[gator]

now thats bordering on arrogance. the only person i can think of, who would attempt something like that.. would be ponting. but i agree.. we need something like that in our cricketers....

do u think, Ranatunga, Imran or Ganguly would have said tht "out of jail" comment??? tht comment is as meek as u can get.... ur batters just batted out 96 facking overs to save the game... u could have put down their bowlers for not being able to bowl out his team on the 4th innings even after 96 overs.... guys, this is mental warfare and many are unfortunately not getting it...

[Ram]

u r using Ganguly's bad form as a crutch in this argument..... this thread aint about Ganguly or how he should be brought bak.... Ganguly's performance as a leader and when he was in decent form was one of the passing examples' date=' which u r constantly holding on to... why are u failing to talk anything about Ranatungas and Imran when i mention it in every post of mine....[/quote'] Okie , lets get back to the main point then. I say Dravid's style of lead-by-example and perform when it matters the most , is a MUCH more effective way of inspiring his team-mates , rather than Ganguly's method of coming with belligerent statements now and then , and when its time for the rubber to hit the road in the middle , suck totally. Is that putting the discussion back on track ?

[gator]

Mars man.... here is wat u said earlier...

The best way then is to lead by example , like Imran did , Ranatunga da. By scoring the most runs , or taking the most wickets. Not by useless show of emotions.

here is how u changed it later...

Lemme say it again. Being a "star" doesnt just mean being the top wicket taker or run scorer. Both Imran and Ranatunga made CRUCIAL contribtions at various stages of the world cup, ( 92 & 99). Ganguly on the other hand , was a burden on his team , even when he was captain.

[gator]

I say Dravid's style of lead-by-example and perform when it matters the most , is a MUCH more effective way of inspiring his team-mates , rather than Ganguly's method of coming with belligerent statements now and then , and when its time for the rubber to hit the road in the middle , suck totally.

wen did i mention, an ideal captain has to make belligerant statement and then suck in the middle.... i am saying, Dravid is a meek captain and is becoming detrimental to our success... we need a captain who had the guts of imran, ranatunga and ganguly and who can perform decently enuf... again, ganguly didnt perform well and i was the first one to support his ouster.... but i cant stand Dravid's captaincy anymore.... he will make everyone a bunch of poosies....

[Ram]

His courageous knocks have come all happened sometime back. Dravid has let us down as a batsman(not to mention captain) in South Africa, World Cup and now England. After the WC debacle the only thing that would have gladdened my heart would be to see India trouncing England 3-0. Specially when Simon Jones, Harmisson, Flintoff are all out. But instead we are getting humiliated by Trimlett and Sidebottom and you want me to see how Dravid is all courage???

Lurks , that is JUST a series of 7-8 innings over the last 5 months . Have you forgotten his contribution to our batting in the last 5 years ? Agreed he failed in the first test , but mark my words , the guy will perform in the second test and save all our ass once again.

Never been in Ganguly camp. Dravid as a captain has been decent at best, dismal at worst. And I stand by that. xxx

That is a very generic statement Lurks. Would appreciate it greatly if you could come up with some concrete proof.

[observer1]

do u think, Ranatunga, Imran or Ganguly would have said tht "out of jail" comment??? tht comment is as meek as u can get.... ur batters just batted out 96 facking overs to save the game... u could have put down their bowlers for not being able to bowl out his team on the 4th innings even after 96 overs.... guys, this is mental warfare and many are unfortunately not getting it...

I agree. I was disappointed when he did not mention any specific names yesterday as having fought hard . There would nothing better than saying that it was a tough match, both teams were equal etc. Dravid sometimes speaks like he is on a UN peacekeeping mission.

[Lurker]

Lurks ' date='[b'] that is JUST a series of 7-8 innings over the last 5 months . Have you forgotten his contribution to our batting in the last 5 years ? Agreed he failed in the first test , but mark my words , the guy will perform in the second test and save all our ass once again.

Oh man where have I heard that before? Wait it was when people talk about Sachin. Yeah sure Sachin has come around, hasnt he?

That is a very generic statement Lurks. Would appreciate it greatly if you could come up with some concrete proof.

Historic loss(1-2) after leading 1-0 in South Africa? The most humilating loss in WC for India EVER? Will those two recent losses do for now Sriram?

[Ram]

wen did i mention' date=' an ideal captain has to make belligerant statement and then suck in the middle.... i am saying, Dravid is a meek captain and is becoming detrimental to our success... we need a captain who had the guts of imran, ranatunga and ganguly and who can perform decently enuf... again, ganguly didnt perform well and i was the first one to support his ouster.... but i cant stand Dravid's captaincy anymore.... he will make everyone a bunch of poosies....[/quote'] This is some excerpts from your first post. Notics some of the language you have used Gats. "Compare this to Dada's retort in a similar scenario - "WTF is a moral victory - do you maintain stats for tht, or jus for wins/losses" - " we are gonna come hard at them in the next two tests" Compare that to wat Dada did... He removed his shirt and twirled it and basically stopped short of pointing a middle finger at the whole Lords snob-crowd.... " On both these occasions , you seem to be making a DIRECT comparison between Dravid and Gangult and seeming to suggest that Dravid's reaction would have been less dramatic and hence , detrimental to the team Strategically, Dada has been average himself. But what brought him success was the big brother and fighting spirit he inculcates... I can almost bet, Dravid would have said something like "England deserved to win, but yuvi and kaif got us out of jail" at the end of the natwest finals in 2002"... It is safe to say that Dravid would never say something like that , under similar circumstances. "As a player, which one of those actions would have motivated you?? I am not sure, it will be wise, to give the captaincy back to Ganguly. But I want to get Dravid fired from captaincy and hunt for another "in your face" fighter to carry and motivate his men..". Again , this seems like an open call , asking people to come to judgements based on what they see on T.V. And who do suppose is that "in your face fighter" ready to replace Dravid and can perform decently too ?

[Ram]

Oh man where have I heard that before? Wait it was when people talk about Sachin. Yeah sure Sachin has come around' date=' hasnt he?[/quote'] All i would say now is -- Lets wait till the series is over. We cant take it up again. The Wall will score a century , i am pretty bloddy sure.

Historic loss(1-2) after leading 1-0 in South Africa? The most humilating loss in WC for India EVER? Will those two recent losses do for now Sriram?

Which seem to suggest that , you think both these defeats were a direct consequence of Dravid's captaincy skills ? or the lack of it ? What would your reaction be if i can prove that Dravid made all the right calls in the world cup matches and it was some pathetic out of form batting that let-us down in the world cup ?

[jf1gp_1]

Nothing wrong with Dravids captaincy. He doesnt have the team to suit his style. Being vocal on the field or in press doesnt make you an aggressive captain, its the field placement, batting order, line bowlers bowl thats shows the kind of captain you are. When was the last time you saw dravid shielding himself or any of his star batsman (rp singh as nightwatch is one of those rare instance) infact unlike Inzi or even saurav, dravid even open the inning when required. He has been the only captain who has consistently gambled with 5 bowler theory. His field placement have always been very attacking. take the first test our opening bowlers were all over the place yet the field placement never changed. Second morning the bowlers got the line right and we wrapped up the inning in 10 overs. What you want is a joker who talks crap doesnt matter if he can walk the talk.

[Lurker]

All i would say now is -- Lets wait till the series is over. We cant take it up again. The Wall will score a century , i am pretty bloddy sure.

Sure. Lets wait.

Which seem to suggest that , you think both these defeats were a direct consequence of Dravid's captaincy skills ? or the lack of it ? What would your reaction be if i can prove that Dravid made all the right calls in the world cup matches and it was some pathetic out of form batting that let-us down in the world cup ?

That would not change the fact that India were kicked out of the WC would it now? See the buck stops with the captain. That is why he is there. If India wins Dravid gets the plaudits, so quite fair that he gets the criticism when we lose. xxx

[Ram]

See the buck stops with the captain. That is why he is there. If India wins Dravid gets the plaudits, so quite fair that he gets the criticism when we lose. xxx

Lets not confuse the discussion. We are discussing about Dravid's captaincy skill arent we ? And not what kind of credit/dis-credit a captain gets for his team performance. I say our loss in the world cup had almost NOTHING to do with Dravid's captaincy. His well past sell-by-date batting line-up went into hibernation.

[jf1gp_1]

I say our loss in the world cup had almost NOTHING to do with Dravid's captaincy. His well past sell-by-date batting line-up went into hibernation.

I totally agree. As i said before Dravid doesnt have the team that can handle his style. Give Dravid 3-4 players from current aussie team and noone would be able to touch him.

[Lurker]

Lets not confuse the discussion. We are discussing about Dravid's captaincy skill arent we ? And not what kind of credit/dis-credit a captain gets for his team performance. I say our loss in the world cup had almost NOTHING to do with Dravid's captaincy. His well past sell-by-date batting line-up went into hibernation.

There is no confusion at all. India had a dismal WC, the worst ever. Dravid was the captain. Put 2 and 2 together. xxx

[gator]

This is some excerpts from your first post. Notics some of the language you have used Gats. "Compare this to Dada's retort in a similar scenario - "WTF is a moral victory - do you maintain stats for tht, or jus for wins/losses" - " we are gonna come hard at them in the next two tests" Compare that to wat Dada did... He removed his shirt and twirled it and basically stopped short of pointing a middle finger at the whole Lords snob-crowd.... " On both these occasions , you seem to be making a DIRECT comparison between Dravid and Gangult and seeming to suggest that Dravid's reaction would have been less dramatic and hence , detrimental to the team Strategically, Dada has been average himself. But what brought him success was the big brother and fighting spirit he inculcates... I can almost bet, Dravid would have said something like "England deserved to win, but yuvi and kaif got us out of jail" at the end of the natwest finals in 2002"... It is safe to say that Dravid would never say something like that , under similar circumstances. "As a player, which one of those actions would have motivated you?? I am not sure, it will be wise, to give the captaincy back to Ganguly. But I want to get Dravid fired from captaincy and hunt for another "in your face" fighter to carry and motivate his men..". Again , this seems like an open call , asking people to come to judgements based on what they see on T.V. And who do suppose is that "in your face fighter" ready to replace Dravid and can perform decently too ?

which part of these statement is contradictory... i dont get it.... if anything, in the natwest example i used... Dada scored 60 runs off an unbelievale 43 balls therefore rubbishing ur claims...

[gator]

Mars man.... here is wat u said earlier... Quote: The best way then is to lead by example , like Imran did , Ranatunga da. By scoring the most runs , or taking the most wickets. Not by useless show of emotions. here is how u changed it later... Quote: Lemme say it again. Being a "star" doesnt just mean being the top wicket taker or run scorer. Both Imran and Ranatunga made CRUCIAL contribtions at various stages of the world cup, ( 92 & 99). Ganguly on the other hand , was a burden on his team , even when he was captain. __________________ what do u have to say about this, Mars...

[Ram]

There is no confusion at all. India had a dismal WC, the worst ever. Dravid was the captain. Put 2 and 2 together. xxx

I say that is a very very wrong logic. We lost against Bangladesh coz of pathetic batting.Just 191 against a two-bit bowling attack. We won against Bermuda We lost against Sri lanka , again due to pathetic batting. Where does Dravid's captaincy come here ?