asterix Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Physics & Chemistry is actually common for both Math and Biology streams. Math & Biology go on separate separate ways...
Crookbond Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 The reason that IITs get the cream of the students is NOT the entrance exam. It is because they have only a limited number of seats. Thanks - Finally! Exactly the point. But, instead of asking me to read what I said, you should read what you said. You have just admitted that IITs select good students. If this is so, then what is the need for changing the undergrad entrance system? So now let us see w hat you've done. UG students are good because IIT entrance test is good . Now, IIT get entrance due to limited number of seats. Phew! One argument ruled out. Are we talking of admission test or curriculum? The reason curriculum is updated is to match the changes in technology, and the changing nature of requirements for research, industry etc. There's a reason why I brought that up. Is there as much hue & cry by the professors and the IIT alumni as to why the syllabus hasn't changed and not to expectations. NO? You know why - C-U-L-T. Lack of attitude and drive to introspect. But, when it comes to admission tests - Holy Grail! If you dont want to reveal what your credentials are then what is the point of hyping them up ? Because some *****-h-o-l-e on this forums thinks that if he clears the JEE and is in the system the others shouldn't criticize the JEE. You can find who the AH is. Just look it up. 2. Math-Physics-Chemistry are the most accessible subjects to poorer students from rural areas. They severely lack the language skills to compete with urban students. Urban, richer students will always have a natural advantage but including language skills will magnify it. At one point of time IITs (pre-1980 I believe) had English exam as well, but they dropped it. :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: Accha, so now tell me after giving this highly esteemed examination which language do they learn in the IIT? Do they have these language skills to compete with urban students at IIT?
Crookbond Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Physics & Chemistry is actually common for both Math and Biology streams. Math & Biology go on separate separate ways... Asterix, at the "abstract" level you are comparing I can say even languages are important for Biology because you need to write and read the names correctly. A slight mis match and you've changed the entire meaning. Here's what I coming to. There's no cast & stone for any measure.
seedhi Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Accha' date=' so now tell me after giving this highly esteemed examination which language do they learn in the IIT? Do they have these language skills to compete with urban students at IIT?[/quote']You dont need any extraordinary language skills to compete in the undergraduate courses in IIT. Except probably for some elective humanities courses, no one cares if you can write a flowery essay in English or Hindi. Also, IITs do currently have a benchmark of (I think) 65% in English in 12th boards. Those qualifying candidates who do not meet this are, I believe, required to undergo some preparatory course after admission. But no one is denied admission because of lack of English/Hindi skills, which is the way it should be in a country like India for Engineering undergraduate admissions; you only need to pass the 12th boards.
seedhi Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Thanks - Finally! Exactly the point. But, instead of asking me to read what I said, you should read what you said. So now let us see w hat you've done. UG students are good because IIT entrance test is good. Now, IIT get entrance due to limited number of seats. Phew! One argument ruled out.Of course the IIT entrance test is good, it reduces bias as much as possible between haves/have-nots. For a common entrance to all engineering streams it tests the right set of skills i.e. in Math-Physics-Chemistry. Within the set of students with the tested skillset, IIT get only the cream since the number of seats are limited. For example, if tomorrow IITs decide to use a markedly different test, then again it will get the "cream" but the nature of this "cream" will be different depending on the test that is used. If the test is anything like SAT it will be biased towards the rich, urban students.
akshayxyz Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Dost - Now' date=' look who's running in circles. I didn't argue anything against the highlighted, in fact you have finally come full circle now. [b']My point was - Why fixate on Physics and Chemistry? All I have been saying that if one does reasonably ok in any field of science - includes Biology, Language Sciences etc. you can't discard the fact that the person can't be a good engineer. Physics and Chemistry is not cast and stone. If you want to go "abstract", you can include philosophy too. babulaal , fixation tumharey corner se shuru hua tha..(PC par).. you only started blabbering,- "why have PC in Engineering/CS entrance test"...or "PC guys can't do CS", and some more sh1t like that. And then you introduced tangential stuff - what should be in curriculum. Pehley decide karle, discuss kya karna chahta hai.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 You dont need any extraordinary language skills to compete in the undergraduate courses in IIT. Except probably for some elective humanities courses, no one cares if you can write a flowery essay in English or Hindi. Also, IITs do currently have a benchmark of (I think) 65% in English in 12th boards. Those qualifying candidates who do not meet this are, I believe, required to undergo some preparatory course after admission. But no one is denied admission because of lack of English/Hindi skills, which is the way it should be in a country like India for Engineering undergraduate admissions; you only need to pass the 12th boards. Fair enough - But I asked you a simple question. Which language is used as a medium of instruction for courses in IIT? Btw - Think about the highlighted again. At first, you say board marks should not be considered. Now, consider board marks for English.You're leaking yourself on both sides of the coin here. :headshake:
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Of course the IIT entrance test is good, it reduces bias as much as possible between haves/have-nots. For a common entrance to all engineering streams it tests the right set of skills i.e. in Math-Physics-Chemistry. Within the set of students with the tested skillset, IIT get only the cream since the number of seats are limited. For example, if tomorrow IITs decide to use a markedly different test, then again it will get the "cream" but the nature of this "cream" will be different depending on the test that is used. If the test is anything like SAT it will be biased towards the rich, urban students. Phirse wohi Najafgarh Logic! Answer my previous posts then I shall tell you why your argument is flawed. IITs entrance test in it's current format still favors a majority of rich, urban students.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 babulaal , fixation tumharey corner se shuru hua tha..(PC par).. you only started blabbering,- "why have PC in Engineering/CS entrance test"...or "PC guys can't do CS", and some more sh1t like that. And then you introduced tangential stuff - what should be in curriculum. Pehley decide karle, discuss kya karna chahta hai. Oye vilaayti hero! Saale, mein joh ek bolta hu uska converse kyun karta hai tu? I said - "Physics & Chemistry are not pre-requisites for many engineering branches (specifically CS)" and not the other way around. The curriculum point was to expose the 'cult' of the IIT system. When it comes to admission tests holy grail but when it comes to even more important things like curriculum the IIT's live in the stone-age. And since you bought the comparison to Stanford, MIT, Harvard lets do a fair comparison at all verticals. But, NO - we just want to conveniently compare where we are good and leave out the points where we aren't good. Abhi tere se baadmein ispar discuss karunga, pehle is seedhe ka "teda" argument dekhna chahta hu. Tu yeh sab chhod, mujhe bata tune Guy Fawkes ka display photograph chhodkar iss langur ka pic kyun lagaya. Woh pehle waala bahut sahi tha yaar!
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Fair enough - But I asked you a simple question. Which language is used as a medium of instruction for courses in IIT?English. Btw - Think about the highlighted again. At first, you say board marks should not be considered. Now, consider board marks for English.You're leaking yourself on both sides of the coin here. :headshake:Let me repeat: NO ONE IS DENIED ADMISSION BECAUSE OF LOW MARKS IN ENGLISH!! The only strict condition is that they have to pass the 12th boards. If they have a problem with English, they are given preparatory courses.
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Phirse wohi Najafgarh Logic! Answer my previous posts then I shall tell you why your argument is flawed. IITs entrance test in it's current format still favors a majority of rich' date=' urban students.[/quote']The students with more resources will always have a natural advantage. The goal is to minimize this as much as possible while still having a competitive entrance test. Inclusion of any test based on language skills will only magnify the advantage. And it is wholly unnecessary, because rudimentary knowledge of English (i.e. enough to pass 12th boards) is just about enough for the studies in IIT, and if there is still some issue the students are given some preparatory courses. As I said, at one point of time IITs did have an English test 30 years ago but they dropped it. JEE based on Math-Physics-Chemistry satisfies the criteria that 1) it is sensible common competitive test for all engineering streams, 2) it minimizes the advantage of rich, urban students.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 English. Let me repeat: NO ONE IS DENIED ADMISSION BECAUSE OF LOW MARKS IN ENGLISH!! The only strict condition is that they have to pass the 12th boards. If they have a problem with English, they are given preparatory courses. Are these sufficient or do students still struggle?
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 The students with more resources will always have a natural advantage. The goal is to minimize this as much as possible while still having a competitive entrance test. Inclusion of any test based on language skills will only magnify the advantage. And it is wholly unnecessary, because rudimentary knowledge of English (i.e. enough to pass 12th boards) is just about enough for the studies in IIT, and if there is still some issue the students are given some preparatory courses. As I said, at one point of time IITs did have an English test 30 years ago but they dropped it. JEE based on Math-Physics-Chemistry satisfies the criteria that 1) it is sensible common competitive test for all engineering streams, 2) it minimizes the advantage of rich, urban students. How? What leads you tell that Physics-Chemistry is more accessible in rural areas? Any pointers/links.
punjabi_khota Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Issue of language is important. An anecdote : I still remember in the JEE I took, there was chemistry question which used language something on the lines of "After blah blah, the reaction was arrested". Now it was obvious to me it meant the reaction stopped, but more than one of the people I met at the exam center were completely stumped by the word 'arrested' in the context of a chemical reaction, and interpreted it to mean something different than the intended meaning.
ganeshran Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Introducing English in a higher education entrance exam in India is a totally idiotic idea. There is a huge gap in the ability to understand the language in rural and urban India. Even in cities, there are a large percentage of students who though have working knowledge of English, are not proficient enough in the language enough to challenge students who have a upmarket private school education. There are still students who do all their schooling in their regional languages, and they struggle to adapt to the medium of instruction in engineering. If scoring well in English became a prerequisite to get into the institutes, they would not even make it there.
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Are these sufficient or do students still struggle?As in any educational institution, some students struggle, but weakness in English is not the significant reason.
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 How? What leads you tell that Physics-Chemistry is more accessible in rural areas? Any pointers/links.More accessible than quality English education. Students in urban areas are naturally much more exposed to English language skills from childhood onwards, which again contributes to the disparity. There is a disparity even between big and small towns. Most importantly, extra-ordinary English skills are not at all crucial to success in undergraduate engineering, whereas Math-Physics-Chemistry skills are important. The IITs even offer the JEE in Hindi.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Introducing English in a higher education entrance exam in India is a totally idiotic idea. There is a huge gap in the ability to understand the language in rural and urban India. Even in cities, there are a large percentage of students who though have working knowledge of English, are not proficient enough in the language enough to challenge students who have a upmarket private school education. There are still students who do all their schooling in their regional languages, and they struggle to adapt to the medium of instruction in engineering. If scoring well in English became a prerequisite to get into the institutes, they would not even make it there. I am not suggesting to use English. I will point out the issue, just be with me for a moment.
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Let me just add that in rural India and small towns, many schools do not even teach English till primary school. To expect students from these regions to compete in an English test for entrance for undergraduate engineering is neither fair nor viable.
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 I am not suggesting to use English. I will point out the issue' date=' just be with me for a moment.[/quote']Didnt you mention SAT as a model for entrance exam?
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